'unique' jaguar wiring

[frequencyblue]

Hello, I am brand new to this forum but seems like a great place! Tiniest bit of background about me is that I'm not too new to wiring guitars but still have a hard time when it comes to complicated wiring such as what I will now explain.

So, i have just ordered a plate from Factions guitars which adds one dpdt switch and 2 dptt switches to the top horn of a jaguar, replacing the rhythm circuit. On the lower plate i have a 3 way blade switch, normal volume/tone/output setup and using pure vintage 65 jaguar pickups.

My goal is to have the dpdt switch do series/parallel, one of the dptt switches do in/out of phase and have the other dptt switch be a tone selector, with preferable a strangle switch (like a normal jaguar) and a dark switch (like the mustang 5.0 wiring) with the 3 way switch and volume/tone being normal wiring.

I have not figured a way to do this, as I'm not used to figuring so much into a diagram so I was wondering if someone here could save me!

I'm not picky as to which switches do what as I'm more picky as to just get all the tones I've described above.

Thank you so much, glad to be here!

[newey]

frequencyblue-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

I'm sure someone can get you a diagram posted for this but it may be a few days. I'm presently pretty deep into holiday preparations and I suspect others are as well.

So, i have just ordered a plate from Factions guitars which adds one dpdt switch and 2 dptt switches to the top horn of a jaguar,

I'm assuming these are slide switches like a regular Jaguar, right? Also, so that a diagram can be better matched to your specific hardware, there are a number of different types of 3-way blade switches. Is yours like a US-style Oak-Grigsby switch as is used on a Tele? Or, does it have a circuit board with a line of connections along the bottom (i.e., import-style switch)?

[frequencyblue]

Of course! I'm in no rush and I've also been under the crunch of the holidays.

I'm assuming these are slide switches like a regular Jaguar, right?

only one is a normal jaguar (dpdt) the other 2 are like what is on a mustang (pretty sure it is called dptt, could be wrong) the one with 8 lugs.

Is yours like a US-style Oak-Grigsby switch as is used on a Tele

Yes US-style came out of a g&l

[reTrEaD]

Dec 15, 2023 16:39:56 GMT -5 frequencyblue said:

the other 2 are like what is on a mustang (pretty sure it is called dptt, could be wrong) the one with 8 lugs.

Some folks refer to the Fender Mustang switch as a DP3T (double-pole three-throw) but that's an inaccurate description. Without some additional wiring, there is no lug that functions as a 'pole'. Adjacent lugs are connected together in each of the 3 positions of the switch. In contrast, the DPDT slide switch does have lugs that can be considered poles. In the drawing below, each of these switches is represented in a way that somewhat represents their innards.

We can refer to the 'b' lug on the DPDT (and its counterpart on the right side of the switch) as a pole. In the position shown, the movable contact provides a connection between b and c. If we slide the actuator upward, the contact provides connection between b and a.

For the Mustang switch, neither x nor y can be considered a pole. If we move the actuator to the uppermost position, x will still be part of the connection path and be connected to w. However, if we move the actuator to the lowermost position, x isn't connected to anything.

While it can be difficult to understand and difficult to use for certain applications, the Mustang switch can perform a few functions that are difficult to achieve with other types of switches. You can learn more about it here: The Three-position Slide Switch (Fender Mustang)

Dec 14, 2023 20:59:44 GMT -5 frequencyblue said:

My goal is to have the dpdt switch do series/parallel, one of the dptt switches do in/out of phase and have the other dptt switch be a tone selector, with preferable a strangle switch (like a normal jaguar) and a dark switch (like the mustang 5.0 wiring) with the 3 way switch and volume/tone being normal wiring.

Series/Parallel
While it is possible to wire a S/P switch with a 3-way Tele selector such that ONLY the 'middle' position of the selector is affected, I recommend against that. It can result in a bit more hum in one of the positions of the switch.

I think a series-override switch is a better choice. When S/P switch is placed in the Parallel position, the 3-way selector functions normally and the middle position of the selector has both pickups in parallel with each other. When the S/P switch is in the Series position, both pickups are placed in series with each other, regardless of the position of the 3-way selector. You can learn more about 'series override' here: 3-way + Global Series switch the GuitarNutz (proper) way

Tone Selector
This seems a reasonable use for a Mustang switch. Not sure if you intend the upper position to be 'strangle' (low cut), middle position 'normal', and lower position 'dark' (high-cut), or if you intend those three selections be in some other sequence. Either way, we can figure that out as the discussion continues.

Phase
Flipping one pickup out-of-phase is a rather easy task. But it makes more sense with a 2-position switch. We certainly could use a Mustang switch, but what would each of the three positions do?
In-phase | Out-of-phase | In-phase ?
In-phase | In-phase | Out-of-phase ?
Something else?

[frequencyblue]

Some folks refer to the Fender Mustang switch as a DP3T (double-pole three-throw) but that's an inaccurate description.

Thanks for the correction! Still learning about the specifics of things like this, and general know-how, so thank you!

I think a series-override switch is a better choice.

Yeah this sounds good to me!

Not sure if you intend the upper position to be 'strangle' (low cut), middle position 'normal', and lower position 'dark' (high-cut)

This is exactly how I imagined it. strangle, normal, dark.

but what would each of the three positions do?

I think I saw a mustang mod where it had the third position as a kill switch, If so I think Id prefer the positioning to be: out of phase, in phase, kill switch.
Though I am certainly open to suggestions if you have an idea that you think would suit this set up better.

[newey]

Dec 17, 2023 11:20:57 GMT -5 frequencyblue said:

I think I saw a mustang mod where it had the third position as a kill switch, If so I think Id prefer the positioning to be: out of phase, in phase, kill switch.

If the "kill switch" is intended to be useful for the machine-gun staccato effects much loved by metal-ish players, a slide switch is a poor type of actuator. A toggle-style kill switch or a momentary-actuated pushbutton are more ergonomically-friendly choices. If the killswitch is to be mostly used for "standby" (i.e., so the guitar can be left plugged in and powered up onstage, as a backup), then the slide switch is fine.

I'd say (but you do you, as the kids say) that if it's a phase switch, do phasey things with it- in phase, out of phase, and out of phase with some variation- bled through a cap, what we call "half out of phase" is one popular option. Haven't looked at it specifically but I'm pretty sure that's do-able with a 3-position Mustang slide switch.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 17, 2023 14:33:31 GMT -5 newey said:

I'd say (but you do you, as the kids say) that if it's a phase switch, do phasey things with it- in phase, out of phase, and out of phase with some variation- bled through a cap, what we call "half out of phase" is one popular option. Haven't looked at it specifically but I'm pretty sure that's do-able with a 3-position Mustang slide switch.

The problem is less with the Mustang switch than the unintended consequences of what happens if the pickups are connected in a way other than the way for which 'half-out-of-phase' is tailored.

SHooP has one pickup out of phase, the two pickups are in series, and one of the two pickups has a capacitor in parallel with it.

PHooP has one pickup out of phase, the two pickups are (basically) in parallel, however one of the two pickups has a capacitor in series with the parallel connection.

There aren't enough connectivity paths (only two) in any one position of the Mustang switch to design for SHooP and things go a bit wonky when you design for PHooP and the pickups are configured in series, or if only the HooP pickup is selected. You end up with the capacitor in series with the entire series combination or the OoP pickup. Not a disaster but not great.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 17, 2023 11:20:57 GMT -5 frequencyblue said:

but what would each of the three positions do?

I think I saw a mustang mod where it had the third position as a kill switch, If so I think Id prefer the positioning to be: out of phase, in phase, kill switch.
Though I am certainly open to suggestions if you have an idea that you think would suit this set up better.

Adding a kill position to the phase switch is possible. In a perfect world, the kill position would be in the center for two reasons. 1 - because the center position tends to be the most fussy to select. 2 - kill would be adjacent to either in phase or out of phase. Unfortunately, the kill position would need to be at one end or the other. If you ever intend to use the kill position to do a stutter effect, it makes the most sense to have the sequence just as you described. If you never intend use the kill to stutter and only want it for a 'silent' position, you might want to have the in-phase position at the top, so it's easy to get with just a flip of your finger.

As Newey mentioned, Half-out-of-Phase would be an option, rather than kill. But only Parallel-Half-out-of-Phase. And that means when the S/P switch is in the Series position, a capacitor would be in series with the series connected pickups. That's basically a strangle. If you want Half-out-of-Phase, it must be at one end or the other. So the most logical sequences would be:
In-Phase | Out-of-Phase | Half-out-of-Phase
or
Out-of-Phase | In-Phase | Half-out-of-Phase

---

Let me know whether you want kill or half-out-of-phase, and what the sequence should be. Then I'll create a 'module' drawing for that section of the wiring.

Also, after you've decided the function and sequence of the phase switch, I can create a module drawing for the tone switch. Normal, Strangle, and Dark can go in any sequence you prefer. So it would make sense if the Normal position was in the same position on that switch, as the position the In-Phase selection is, on the phase switch.

[frequencyblue]

As Newey mentioned, Half-out-of-Phase would be an option

I like this idea! I definitely like keeping the 3rd position inline with the phase switching options. I think the I'd like the positioning to be:

In-Phase | Out-of-Phase | Half-out-of-Phase

Also, after you've decided the function and sequence of the phase switch, I can create a module drawing for the tone switch. Normal, Strangle, and Dark can go in any sequence you prefer. So it would make sense if the Normal position was in the same position on that switch, as the position the In-Phase selection is, on the phase switch.

I also think Normal | Strangle | Dark, would stay the most inline with the other switch.

And that means when the S/P switch is in the Series position, a capacitor would be in series with the series connected pickups. That's basically a strangle.

My only concern is when you say that it'll be basically a strangle, do you mean only when the half out of phase and series are selected at the same time? If so that's fine, I just want to make sure when in phase/out of phase I can still do series normally or I might have a complete misunderstanding of how phase switching and S/P switching interact with each other. I've never been able to wire them in the same guitar before haha.

[Yogi B]

Dec 16, 2023 16:43:26 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Dec 15, 2023 16:39:56 GMT -5 frequencyblue said:

the other 2 are like what is on a mustang (pretty sure it is called dptt, could be wrong) the one with 8 lugs.

Some folks refer to the Fender Mustang switch as a DP3T (double-pole three-throw) but that's an inaccurate description. Without some additional wiring, there is no lug that functions as a 'pole'. Adjacent lugs are connected together in each of the 3 positions of the switch. In contrast, the DPDT slide switch does have lugs that can be considered poles. In the drawing below, each of these switches is represented in a way that somewhat represents their innards.

We can refer to the 'b' lug on the DPDT (and its counterpart on the right side of the switch) as a pole. In the position shown, the movable contact provides a connection between b and c. If we slide the actuator upward, the contact provides connection between b and a.

For the Mustang switch, neither x nor y can be considered a pole. If we move the actuator to the uppermost position, x will still be part of the connection path and be connected to w. However, if we move the actuator to the lowermost position, x isn't connected to anything.

s/(?<!double-)pole/common/g (substitute "pole", when not preceded by "double-", for "common", globally).

SPOILER: Click to show

A pole is an electrically independent subsection of a switch that incorporates at least two terminals. By contrast, a common is a singular terminal (one that is included in every connection a pole makes across all of the switch positions).

As an example, the terminals labelled a, b & c in your illustration of a DPDT form one pole (with b as its common), and the other pole consists of the three unlabelled terminals.

For "throw", I've seen competing definitions. Some necessitate the existence of a common terminal, which is connected to every one of the circuits a pole completes and is often described an as input (or some synonym thereof), and a number of "output" terminals each of which correspond to a throw. For example (from Arrow Electronics: Understand the fundamentals of switch poles and throws):

A switch throw describes the number of output connections each pole of the switch can have.
...
An SPDT switch consists of three terminals and connects the source terminal and one of two output terminals.

Others are more general, and instead only talk about connections, circuits, or paths. e.g. (from Carling Technologies: Switch Poles):

The throw of a switch is the number of circuit paths that can be controlled by any one pole.

The first definition clearly does not apply in this case (a Mustang switch has no terminal common to every one of the connections it can possibly make), whereas the second definition would allow the switch to be called a double-pole triple-throw. However, note that under this looser definition the mapping from switch function to name is many-to-one: here a DP3T would describe both the Mustang-style switch as well as switches that satisfy the stricter definition e.g. a CRL Telecaster switch.

You can learn more about it here: The Three-position Slide Switch (Fender Mustang)

From within the linked thread, sumgai's term: "on-on-on, no common", or perhaps the variation 'triple-throw, no common' helps differentiate between poles with 4 terminals. However, it's also possible that this terminology could encompass poles with a greater number of terminals — depending on what definition of "pole" is being used.

Without a clear-cut definition, for unusual switching arrangements, the exact number of poles of a given switch is also debatable. It lies somewhere between: the maximum number of independent circuits that are simultaneously closed by the switch; and the number of groups formed when the terminals are partitioned such that the switch (itself) never connects terminals that are within separate groups. For most normal switches those are the same, however it is technically possible that those numbers may not be equal.

I think that's more-or-less all I have to say on the subject here. I'll probably start a thread in the Coffee Shop later, where a more in depth discussion can be had without further cluttering up this thread. The important take-away is that different definitions exist, and ultimately when communicating about a specific manufacturers product it would be wise to use their terminology in order to avoid confusion — even if that doesn't align with your own (Switchcraft 46313LDRX).

---

While it is possible to wire a S/P switch with a 3-way Tele selector such that ONLY the 'middle' position of the selector is affected, I recommend against that. It can result in a bit more hum in one of the positions of the switch.

I assume you're talking about leaving one of the coils hanging from hot when in series mode? That's only a necessity with a DPDT ON/ON/ON. With an actual triple throw switch it's possible to avoid that (in this post I showed a version using a Mustang switch, but in can be easily adapted to a Tele switch).

---

Dec 18, 2023 10:07:15 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

As Newey mentioned, Half-out-of-Phase would be an option, rather than kill. But only Parallel-Half-out-of-Phase. And that means when the S/P switch is in the Series position, a capacitor would be in series with the series connected pickups. That's basically a strangle.

That's what I was thinking, and as such was wondering if it would make sense to divide the two Mustang switches along the lines of pickup, rather than function.

Perhaps something like:

SwN: N × strangle cap; N normal; N OoP.

SwB: B × strangle cap; B normal; B OoP + dark cap.

This would give a similar, but not fully overlapping set of options. For example neck + dark cap isn't available — however, it would provide a series-'half'-out-of-phase option, plus some asymmetrical filtering options for in phase (i.e. 'half'-in-phase sounds) instead.

[reTrEaD]

Yogi B , the coffee shop thread you suggested seems a good idea. Particularly if you can reference some scholarly articles on the subject. I may be conflating the terms pole and common. If so, I have some corrections to make.

Dec 19, 2023 0:55:44 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

While it is possible to wire a S/P switch with a 3-way Tele selector such that ONLY the 'middle' position of the selector is affected, I recommend against that. It can result in a bit more hum in one of the positions of the switch.

I assume you're talking about leaving one of the coils hanging from hot when in series mode? That's only a necessity with a DPDT ON/ON/ON. With an actual triple throw switch it's possible to avoid that (in this post I showed a version using a Mustang switch, but in can be easily adapted to a Tele switch).

If/when you have some time, please create a drawing with DP3T tele switch and a DPDT S/P switch that only affects the 'both' position. Having that option without a hanging hot would definitely be a plus. I'd surely welcome that addition to my S/P reference thread.

Dec 19, 2023 0:55:44 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Dec 18, 2023 10:07:15 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

As Newey mentioned, Half-out-of-Phase would be an option, rather than kill. But only Parallel-Half-out-of-Phase. And that means when the S/P switch is in the Series position, a capacitor would be in series with the series connected pickups. That's basically a strangle.

That's what I was thinking, and as such was wondering if it would make sense to divide the two Mustang switches along the lines of pickup, rather than function.

Perhaps something like:

SwN: N × strangle cap; N normal; N OoP.

SwB: B × strangle cap; B normal; B OoP + dark cap.

This would give a similar, but not fully overlapping set of options. For example neck + dark cap isn't available — however, it would provide a series-'half'-out-of-phase option, plus some asymmetrical filtering options for in phase (i.e. 'half'-in-phase sounds) instead.

I see where you're going with this. Interesting, but it does get a bit switch-happy. To implement that here, would require an additional DPDT (specifically for the basic phase switch) over and above what the threadstarter has. And it would require some thought in regards to which tone switch and position to select to get the proper 'half' to go with the type (series or parallel) of out of phase. On the plus side, 'half' combinations wouldn't need to be restricted to just out of phase.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 18, 2023 11:54:32 GMT -5 frequencyblue said:

And that means when the S/P switch is in the Series position, a capacitor would be in series with the series connected pickups. That's basically a strangle.

My only concern is when you say that it'll be basically a strangle, do you mean only when the half out of phase and series are selected at the same time? If so that's fine, I just want to make sure when in phase/out of phase I can still do series normally or I might have a complete misunderstanding of how phase switching and S/P switching interact with each other. I've never been able to wire them in the same guitar before haha.

Yeah, In-phase and (full) out-of-phase would function as expected, regardless of the position of the S/P switch. The half-out-of-phase is the only place where we can experience something less expected. Because a capacitor is placed in series with the (out of phase) Bridge pickup, that gets us the desired effect when both pickups are combined in parallel. The lows are stripped from the Bridge pickup's contribution. So we won't get the same level of cancelation of the fundamental frequencies. That gives us a bottom end that's similar to just the Neck pickup. Various harmonics will have cancellation and reinforcement due to the out of phase contribution of the Bridge pickup. But when the phase switch is in half-out-of-phase, that same cap also will strip the lows from the bridge pickup when it's selected alone, and from both pickups when they are placed in series.

All things considered, it shouldn't be a deal breaker.

Here are the modules for the Phase Switch and Tone Switch:

  

[newey]

Yogi B-=

A tour de force on switch nomenclature. A separate thread on this topic is a good idea, before we drift to far from frequencyblue's request.

As to:

For "throw", I've seen competing definitions. Some necessitate the existence of a common terminal, which is connected to every one of the circuits a pole completes and is often described an as input (or some synonym thereof), and a number of "output" terminals each of which correspond to a throw. For example (from Arrow Electronics: Understand the fundamentals of switch poles and throws):

A switch throw describes the number of output connections each pole of the switch can have.
...
An SPDT switch consists of three terminals and connects the source terminal and one of two output terminals.

Others are more general, and instead only talk about connections, circuits, or paths. e.g. (from Carling Technologies: Switch Poles):

The throw of a switch is the number of circuit paths that can be controlled by any one pole.

The way it was explained to me here, by ChrisK IIRC, inserted the word "discrete": "the number of discrete output connections a switch can have . . ."

The DPDT On/On/On example thus has only 2 throws. The center switch position makes a different set of connections than are made by up or down, but they are not separate or new connections- they are not discrete connections. So, the center position is not a third "throw".

At least, that aided my understanding of this topic.

[frequencyblue]

Here are the modules for the Phase Switch and Tone Switch:

Thank you! just a couple questions:

What should the value on the capacitor on the phase switch be.

and I'm also wondering where I put the S/P switch, since the bridge pickup in connected directly to the phase switch. Would I just jump off of the lug of where the bridge pickup ground are connected on the mustang switch and put it where the bridge ground would normally be on a S/P switch? or would that cause some issues?

I believe other than that, I think I understand where and how everything should go and I greatly appreciate everyone's help and effort and I'm sorry for seemingly having you take baby steps with me but I do really appreciate the time and effort.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 19, 2023 20:31:01 GMT -5 frequencyblue said:

What should the value on the capacitor on the phase switch be.

I reckon 0.01uF should be about right.

Dec 19, 2023 20:31:01 GMT -5 frequencyblue said:

and I'm also wondering where I put the S/P switch, since the bridge pickup in connected directly to the phase switch. Would I just jump off of the lug of where the bridge pickup ground are connected on the mustang switch and put it where the bridge ground would normally be on a S/P switch? or would that cause some issues?

IF you choose to do a Series Override, we'll mirror the connections of the DPDT compared to what is shown in the reference thread. In other words, one common of the DPDT will go to the Bridge lug of the 3-way and select either the Bridge (+) (parallel), or the Neck lug of the 3-way (series). The other common of the DPDT will connect to the Neck (-) and select either Ground (parallel), or the (+) of the Bridge pickup (series).

I say IF, because it turns out a Fender 3-way switch can successfully accomplish the task of having your choice of series or parallel in the center position without the hanging from hot issue. So that IS a viable option.

So let me know which you prefer. Series Override ~or~ S/P selection of the center position of the 3-way. Then I'll create a module for that part of the wiring.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 19, 2023 20:31:01 GMT -5 frequencyblue said:

I'm sorry for seemingly having you take baby steps with me but I do really appreciate the time and effort.

Actually, this exercise led to some new knowledge for me. So it was definitely worth the effort.

[frequencyblue]

So let me know which you prefer. Series Override ~or~ S/P selection of the center position of the 3-way. Then I'll create a module for that part of the wiring.

Well since it is possible might as well try it haha. Would love to have the option, if its not too much trouble of course.

[reTrEaD]

Here's the 3-way selector and S/P switch module. I think this is what Yogi B had in mind when he mentioned the possibility.

[frequencyblue]

Great! Thank you, I drew up a complete diagram today and it seems like it all makes sense.

I'll certainly make sure to make an update when I get to wiring this, may be a while though because of the holidays and just waiting on parts and such.

Thanks again though and I really appreciate the effort.

[Yogi B]

Dec 19, 2023 2:03:46 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Dec 19, 2023 0:55:44 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Perhaps something like:

SwN: N × strangle cap; N normal; N OoP.

SwB: B × strangle cap; B normal; B OoP + dark cap.

I see where you're going with this. Interesting, but it does get a bit switch-happy. To implement that here, would require an additional DPDT (specifically for the basic phase switch) over and above what the threadstarter has. And it would require some thought in regards to which tone switch and position to select to get the proper 'half' to go with the type (series or parallel) of out of phase. On the plus side, 'half' combinations wouldn't need to be restricted to just out of phase.

I agree it would probably be better to separate out the phase switch, but I think you missed that the third position of each switch is OoP? So, no, an extra phase switch is not required. Out-of-phase settings would be achieved by setting one switch to either the first or second position & the other switch to the third position (specifically, to get 'pure' OoP, SwN in pos. 3 & SwB in pos. 2).

I wasn't really thinking in terms of selecting the 'proper' HOoP combinations: since that can't be done automatically (with the available switches), I'm not considering it as a high level concept — just that, in some circumstances with the selection of a strangle cap or the dark cap, the result happens to be PHOoP or SHOoP.

Dec 19, 2023 2:29:33 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

But when the phase switch is in half-out-of-phase, that same cap also will strip the lows from the bridge pickup when it's selected alone, and from both pickups when they are placed in series.

Something of note is that this HOoP cap (along with my alternative which would put separate strangle caps on each pickup) would be positioned before the tone control. As such, when the cap is engaged, rolling down the tone would not only cut treble but also raise the cut-off frequency of the bass cut and therefore cause a more severe reduction in signal.

The other reason I'm pointing this out is that your tone switch module advises placement after the tone pot, and therefore avoids this kind of interaction with its strangle cap. Whereas, traditional Jaguar wiring has the strangle cap pre-tone and thereby under its influence. frequencyblue hasn't expressed an explicit preference other than: having "a strangle switch (like a normal jaguar)", and (without extra information, such as knowing the plan regarding pot values or tone pot wiring) I don't know whether that translates into replicating the vintage wiring style, foibles and all.

The above being said, by having the additional the HOoP cap you can kind of get both options (at least, for the bridge alone and series combos). Where the HOoP cap is pre-tone and the actual strangle cap is post-tone. Though note I did say "kind of", because your suggested 10nF HOoP cap is a little larger than the traditional 3nF strangle cap.

Dec 20, 2023 12:12:59 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Here's the 3-way selector and S/P switch module. I think this is what Yogi B had in mind when he mentioned the possibility.

Yup — though, because my brain prefers the vintage layout of the Telecaster style switch (wherein the commons are the outermost terminals), I was briefly puzzled (it may be an idea to either label them or shade them more opaquely).

Also, since I'm replying here, in the other thread you currently have the same image repeated twice. Additionally, the missing image currently has only the left hand side of the Tele switch flipped (i.e. the green wire should be moved to the empty terminal).

[reTrEaD]

Dec 21, 2023 2:29:11 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Dec 20, 2023 12:12:59 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Here's the 3-way selector and S/P switch module. I think this is what Yogi B had in mind when he mentioned the possibility.

Yup — though, because my brain prefers the vintage layout of the Telecaster style switch (wherein the commons are the outermost terminals), I was briefly puzzled (it may be an idea to either label them or shade them more opaquely).

Also, since I'm replying here, in the other thread you currently have the same image repeated twice. Additionally, the missing image currently has only the left hand side of the Tele switch flipped (i.e. the green wire should be moved to the empty terminal).

Plenty of stumbles on my part. Thanks! Made the necessary corrections including shading the common lugs darker. Not sure where/when/why changes were made to the offset of the lugs on the 3-way and/or 5-way switches. Probably worth some discussion and research. One thing I've noticed is a constant. Commons are always upper left and lower right, regardless of offset.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 21, 2023 2:29:11 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

I agree it would probably be better to separate out the phase switch, but I think you missed that the third position of each switch is OoP? So, no, an extra phase switch is not required. Out-of-phase settings would be achieved by setting one switch to either the first or second position & the other switch to the third position (specifically, to get 'pure' OoP, SwN in pos. 3 & SwB in pos. 2).

I wasn't really thinking in terms of selecting the 'proper' HOoP combinations: since that can't be done automatically (with the available switches), I'm not considering it as a high level concept — just that, in some circumstances with the selection of a strangle cap or the dark cap, the result happens to be PHOoP or SHOoP.

Yeah, I did. Let's revisit this:

Dec 19, 2023 0:55:44 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

That's what I was thinking, and as such was wondering if it would make sense to divide the two Mustang switches along the lines of pickup, rather than function.

Perhaps something like:

SwN: N × strangle cap; N normal; N OoP.

SwB: B × strangle cap; B normal; B OoP + dark cap.

This would give a similar, but not fully overlapping set of options. For example neck + dark cap isn't available — however, it would provide a series-'half'-out-of-phase option, plus some asymmetrical filtering options for in phase (i.e. 'half'-in-phase sounds) instead.

Can we put a dark cap in parallel in one position of SwB without it affecting the other positions? I had to use a separate set of contacts to accomplish that in the Tone Switch. Maybe I'm having another brain fart here, but I don't see that as possible.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 21, 2023 0:18:48 GMT -5 frequencyblue said:

Great! Thank you, I drew up a complete diagram today and it seems like it all makes sense.

I'll certainly make sure to make an update when I get to wiring this, may be a while though because of the holidays and just waiting on parts and such.

Thanks again though and I really appreciate the effort.

No rush. Holidays/family comes first.

[Yogi B]

Dec 21, 2023 10:43:00 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Can we put a dark cap in parallel in one position of SwB without it affecting the other positions?

Hint: it was not due to an arbitrary decision that the parallel cap occurs in the same position as when the pickup is OoP.

SPOILER: Click to show

[reTrEaD]

Dec 21, 2023 23:29:49 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Hint: it was not due to an arbitrary decision that the parallel cap occurs in the same position as when the pickup is OoP.

Damn, I must be getting old and feeble. No excuse for me not figuring this out on my own. I vaguely recall doing something similar a few years ago, with a DPDT for Normal | SHooP.

The Dark cap is shunted in the Strangle and Normal positions, but in Parallel with the Coil and the Output in the OoP position. So we get:
Strangle + In-Phase | In-Phase | OoP x Dark

Moving the Dark cap to the right of the 'X' makes it a factor in the Strangle and Normal positions but not in the OoP position.
Where on the right does matter, though.

With the Dark cap between Green and White, we get:
Strangle + (In-Phase x Dark) | In-Phase x Dark | OoP

With the Dark cap between Red and Black, we get:
(Strangle + In-Phase) x Dark | In-Phase x Dark | OoP
[The caps form a divider in the Strangle position. Rather fugly.]

If we place the Dark cap between White and Red and also remove the Strangle cap, what then?
Is the Dark cap still a Dark cap or is it a Strangle cap?

SPOILER: Click to show

Result:
Dangle + In-Phase | In-phase | Out-of-Phase x Dangle
Not that it's worth doing, though. Seems likely you'd want a larger cap for Dark than for Strangle.

[newey]

Whether anyone wires this or not, I am in favor of forevermore calling it "Dangle"