H-S-H seymour Duncan P-rails, single coil 5 way wiring

[maxm]

I have a 1996 Ibanez s470( H-S-H) that i have installed P-rails with triple shots into. The guitar has 1 vol 1 tone. I would like to wire it for the middle position to B+N and have fallen short of finding a solution. The guitar has a factory import 8 pin 5 way switch. The triple shots are a 2 wire setup, so in my mind its like wiring a single coil pickup. I have tried to adapt the killer strat mod to work here, but the bridge and neck pickups are wired in series for that setup. My setup must have the B+M wired in parallel since they will be combining humbuckers. 

[JohnH]

Hi maxm

I don't think a simple 5 way can get that B+N tone at position 3.

A superswitch can do it easily.

Or, you could wire the neck pickup at position 2 and get

B
B+N
N
N+M
M

Or do a basic strat wiring and add a neck-on switch

[maxm]

Thanks for the Reply John! For trial run purposed I will wire the neck into position 2 until i get my superswitch. I figured it wasn't a possibility to get my desired results with a stock switch, but I wanted to try. I still cannot figure out the signal chain for the Killer strat mod tho. I intend to wire up my strat this way very soon. Does that schematic run all the pickups hot and essentially turn the switch into a kill switch? I tried to wrap my head around how the 2 sides of the switch were joined in a staggered fashion, and also how the signal chain ran all the way thru the bridge pickup and the neck, but couldn't understand how one would be shut off. Pretty neat stuff for sure!

[newey]

I would like to wire it for the middle position to B+N

I want to be sure I understand you correctly, because the JohnH Hastings Strat diagram you posted above does give you the N and B in the third switch position- but the two are in series, not parallel. The diagram uses the "*" symbol for series, and when you said "N + B", I assumed (and JohnH did as well) that you meant you wanted the parallel combination of N and B.

If it's series you want, the diagram does so. Although I haven't checked your translation of the diagram to your 5-way switch yet. I can do so if you decide that's how your going to go.

Does that schematic run all the pickups hot and essentially turn the switch into a kill switch? I tried to wrap my head around how the 2 sides of the switch were joined in a staggered fashion, and also how the signal chain ran all the way thru the bridge pickup and the neck, but couldn't understand how one would be shut off. Pretty neat stuff for sure!

I don't think that's quite it. The diagram is a very clever use of the peculiarities of the standard 5-way switch, namely the fact that we have two "shorting positions" at positions 2 and 4. The diagram makes clever use of this on both poles of the switch. On one pole, the middle pickup alone is controlled. Ordinarily, we use the "common", or "pole" lug of a switch pole to do the switching we want, but here, the middle pickup is connected to the output at positions 2 and 4 only (and not at 3, since that is to be our N * B combo). Since position 2 shorts together whatever is connected at position 1 and position 3 (and 4 does the same with 3 and 5), the middle pickup is connected to output via a jumper at the middle lug. So the common lug is not used at all on the middle pickup's side of the switch. The middle pickup connects to the 1st and 3rd lugs, and then gets connected via the short to the middle lug when at either position 2 or 4.

On the opposite side of the switch, the neck pickup's "negative" wire is connected to the commons of the switch, and the bridge "hot" commects there as well. Neck "hot" is permanently connected to output, and the bridge "negative" is permanenetly grounded. Note that the center lug on that side of the switch is left unconnected to anything. So, when the switch is in the 3rd position, we get a "series chain" with the bridge pickup's "ground" at one end and the neck's "hot" at the other. For the other switch positions, either the neck or the bridge pickup is shorted to itself as needed, leaving the other pickup either by itself or connected with the middle pickup.

Hope that helps. It is a clever and very non-obvious way to use that particular switch.

[maxm]

thank you for the response newey! I did mean B+M as i wanted to wire up these humbuckers with P-rails in parallel. Ive since took johns suggestion and wired the neck into position 2 to get the combinations I wanted to hear until my super switch arrives. Very pleased so far with the results of the P-rail in the guitar. I did have to switch the wires for the single coil to get it in phase with the neck pickup. Which leads me to another question. Since the polarity is one way on a single coil I can choose for it to be in phase with either the neck or bridge pickup. BUT, if i got a rail pickup like the cool rail, could i wire it split with one coil to be in phase with the neck pickup, and the other coil to be in phase with the bridge pickup? the polarity of the 2 opposing coils would be flipped, correct? The middle pickup would only be ever used in a 4 or 2 position to get the strat quack sound.  

your explanation of the killer strat mod wiring was excellent. I will have to study it against a diagram of the pole switching on a 5 way to REALLY get it, but for now I can wrap my head around the function.

[newey]

Feb 27, 2024 17:03:51 GMT -5 maxm said:

could i wire it split with one coil to be in phase with the neck pickup, and the other coil to be in phase with the bridge pickup? the polarity of the 2 opposing coils would be flipped, correct?

Not sure I follow what you mean here. Your triple shot rings give you the option to select either coil from each HB by itself. So you can always slelect the appropriate coil for hum-cancellation with the middle pickup.

[maxm]

I was speaking about the middle pickup. the p rails are wound in reverse of eachother so when used together they will be hum canceling and in phase. Doesn’t that mean the middle single coil pickup will be out of phase with either the bridge pickup or the neck pickup, causing a volume drop and thin tone from one or the other? If so, can that be combated with a hot rail style single, splitting it and using one half for the 4 position neck/middle and using the other half for the 2 position bridge/ middle.

[newey]

Feb 28, 2024 1:12:27 GMT -5 maxm said:

Doesn’t that mean the middle single coil pickup will be out of phase with either the bridge pickup or the neck pickup, causing a volume drop and thin tone from one or the other?

No. The middle pickup will be hum-cancelling when combined with one coil from each HB, and not hum-cancelling with the other coil. When the middle pickup is combined with both coils of a HB, it may be partially hum-cancelling, more or less, depending on the variations in pickup windings and other factors.

All three pickups will be in phase with each other in all settings (assuming it's wired correctly).

If a pickup were reverse polarity (i.e., magnetic poles swapped) only, and not reverse wound, it would be out of phase with a "normal" polarity pickup.

If a pickup were reverse wound (i.e., positive and negative wires swapped) only, and not reverse polarity, it too would be out of phase with a "normal" wound pickup.

But if we do both things, we swap the magnet to reverse the polarity and wind it in the opposite direction (or swap the wires around, which amounts to the same thing), we have a RWRP pickup which will be in phase with a "normally-wound, normal polarity pickup". Note that I have put "normal" in quotes because a pickup is only RWRP with respect to another pickup, the labels are all relative. We could just as accurately describe the RWRP pickup as the "normal" one, IOW.

Hope that helps

[maxm]

Hey all! I received an s-model megaswitch from stewmac. Im trying to get it wired for the following positions and I cant find a diagram to help me figure it out. Any help would be appreciated. I hope I didn't get the wrong switch! The space is very limited in the S-series guitars, so this is what I found that I heard would fit. This is my H-S-H s470 with the P-rails and triple shots. Thanks all!

Postion 1- B
position 2-B+M
position 3-B+N
position 4- N+M
position 5-N 

[newey]

maxm-

Not sure that the Megaswitch S is the one you want. The "M" model is the one that is equivalent to a Superswitch, no questiuon you could get your "wish list" with that switch.

But don't lose hope, what you want may be possible with what you have. The "S" version, as the instructions you posted show, is primarily meant to be used to implement the standard Strat wiring scheme. But there are unused terminals, and other possibilities may exist. What you want is the standard Strat wiring for 4 of the 5 positions, only the middle position changes, from middle only to N + B. We know the S switch can do the other 4 positions, so if we can figure out how to get what you want at the middle position, you're good to go.

To find out, we will need to dig into the switch logic of the Megaswitch S. And, while I know we have, somewhere buried in the Forum here, the switch logic for the M model, and probably for the P model (a PRS clone), I don't recall anyone posting the switch logic for the S. I may have to go root around in the basement, which I can't do at the moment.

Other options would include, since it uses a transparent circuit board, visually tracing out the connections. But that can't realistically be done over the web, only you have it in hand. The better option would be for you to use a multimeter to check the switch logic. If you don't have a multimeter, well, as I said, I'll root around a bit.

I'm about to go on a bit of a rant here, and this is not in any way directed at you, maxm. For all I know, you have a multimeter and use it daily. But I am continually amazed ("'round these parts", as they say) that we hear from guitarists who are perfectly willing to dismember an instrument (often costing upwards of a grand or so) to modify it, but can't be bothered to spend a lousy $15 or so to get the basic tools needed to do the job properly.

Rewiring one's guitar without a multimeter is, to my mind, like trying to land a Cessna blindfolded. Good luck.

OK, rant over.

[maxm]

I do have a multimeter! I'm also eager to learn. I don't intend to defer to you guys to do the work for me, only looking for some guidance. I can try to pin this thing out, but i'm not sure exactly what to look for. I imagine that id be looking for some common terminals when the switch is in position 3 so I can bridge some terminals together. Hell I spent probably 8 hours trying to adapt another diagram and understand it to get as far as I did, up until 430 while the baby and wife were sleeping. What I haven't grasped yet is the fact that if I bridge a common point on the switch that I wont end up with B+M active in position 1,3 and 5. It may be that this switch isn't the right one for the job. I guess I assumed that if a superswitch was the right fit, a mega switch would be an even better fit.

[newey]

Well, there are various flavors of Megaswitch™, and they are most certainly not created equal. We'll need to get the complete pinout for it, not just position 3. You'll need to go position by position, checking for continuity between the various pads. But before we go down that road, let's see if maybe we can find the info elsewhere.

[Yogi B]

Feb 28, 2024 21:19:00 GMT -5 newey said:

I may have to go root around in the basement...

Second table, here: A Guide to Eyb/Schaller Megaswitches.

Given which, I think the following connections should result in the sought pickup selections. (Though, the bridge & neck connections may need to be exchanged depending on switch orientation.)

Output	terminals 5 & 8
Neck	terminals D & 6
Middle	terminals 2 & 3
Bridge	terminals C & 7

[maxm]

That is awesome you could find it! Unfortunately the switch I have is made by stew Mac and is different than the Schaller:/ I will see if I can get this switch pointed out.

[newey]

Stew Mac doesn't make anything, they're just a retailer. Anything with their brand on it was made by someone else and rebranded.

Your switch is an EYB Megaswitch which, AFAIK, are identical to the Schaller ones, Schaller just rebrands them. Not 100% sure but pretty sure. Someone else will probably supply that extra reassurance.

Anyway, here's a link: www.eyb-guitars.de/Eyb-English/products/megaswitch.html

[reTrEaD]

Feb 29, 2024 16:42:41 GMT -5 newey said:

Your switch is an EYB Megaswitch which, AFAIK, are identical to the Schaller ones, Schaller just rebrands them. Not 100% sure but pretty sure. Someone else will probably supply that extra reassurance.

The Megaswitch series of switches are a collaborative effort of Schaller and Günter Eyb. Günter and one of his friends created the original design and brought that design to Schaller to have it manufactured. Not sure what improvements the engineers at Schaller made to the original design but Schaller manufactures the lever mechanism, rotating assembly, and their own printed boards for the units they sell. They also sell the same mechanical parts and rotating assembly to Günter and he installs his own printed boards. He'll also make custom printed boards for customers but that tends to be expensive unless they can amortize the design cost over a large number of units.

[maxm]

Thats great news! I'm going to try to wire it up like that and let you know how it goes. Thank you!

[reTrEaD]

Feb 29, 2024 2:38:59 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Second table, here: A Guide to Eyb/Schaller Megaswitches.

Given which, I think the following connections should result in the sought pickup selections. (Though, the bridge & neck connections may need to be exchanged depending on switch orientation.)

Output	terminals 5 & 8
Neck	terminals D & 6
Middle	terminals 2 & 3
Bridge	terminals C & 7

That's clever.  I like the way you took advantage of the 5 terminal and its limited connectivity to the other terminals associated with the 4 common. I grabbed your table from the other thread to which you linked, so others can understand what you've done.

Megaswitch S 3.0
Images: Front, Rear
Edit 2021-09-25: corrected thanks to nicfox 's post below.

	Throws
Commons	1	2	3	4	5
Terminal 4		Terminal 5	Terminal 5	Terminal 5
Terminal 4	Terminal 3	Terminal 3	Terminal C	Terminal 2	Terminal 2
Terminal 8	Terminal B	Terminal 1	Terminal 1	Terminal 1	Terminal A
Terminal 8	Terminal 7	Terminal 7	Terminal D	Terminal 6	Terminal 6

[maxm]

Newey solved it first try! Everything's wired up as it should be and works perfectly. The Schaller megaswitch-S fit into the Ibanez S470 body with a hair to spare. At this point i'm probably going to rotate the neck and bridge pickup to flip the single coils to the outside and add some foam to the single coil to balance the output to the blade side of the P-rails. The p-90's so close to the center of the pickup ring I wont see much if any tonal change, but the single coil will move closer to tonal range of a strat. 

[maxm]

reTrEaD thanks for posting the graph. Now i understand why it works. I wasn't able to wrap my head around the function until I saw them side by side. What i still dont get is why terminal 5 was tied to the 8 for common? Thank you.

[reTrEaD]

Mar 1, 2024 0:30:36 GMT -5 maxm said:

What i still dont get is why terminal 5 was tied to the 8 for common?

We need to connect the Middle pickup in positions 2 and 4 but in no other positions. If we tied common 4 to the output, terminals 2 and 3 would get us the needed Middle pickup connection in positions 2 and 4 but would also have the middle pickup connected in positions 1 and 5. This is no bueno. By tying terminal 5 to the output, we eliminate those unwanted connections.

In any position that common 4 connects to more than one terminal, those terminals are  connected together.

Terminal 5 connects to terminal 4 in positions 2, 3, and 4.
Terminal 3 connects to terminal 4 in positions 1 and 2.
Terminal 5 connects to terminal 2 in position 2 ONLY.

Terminal 5 connects to terminal 4 in positions 2, 3, and 4.
Terminal 2 connects to terminal 4 in positions 4 and 5.
Terminal 5 connects to terminal 3 in position 4 ONLY

[newey]

Mar 1, 2024 0:25:57 GMT -5 maxm said:

Newey solved it first try!

Not hardly, I didn't do a darned thing. Yogi B and reTrEaD did the work on this one.

[reTrEaD]

Mar 1, 2024 21:07:28 GMT -5 newey said:

Mar 1, 2024 0:25:57 GMT -5 maxm said:

Newey solved it first try!

Not hardly, I didn't do a darned thing all I did was mention the switch you have, might possibly work.
Yogi B and reTrEaD did the work on this one. Then reTrEaD sort of explained Yogi B 's solution.

FTFY