Two single coils, no pickup selector

[brak]

Hi, not requesting a diagram, just looking for opinions on this. There's quite a a lot of pickups for fixing the issue of single coil hum.

But what if, instead of embracing the hum, or paying for new, often very expensive pickups, the guitar was wired so it is essentially always in the middle position?

No pickup selector switch, just treat it like a single pickup guitar. Are there enough other methods of tone control to compensate for not having a neck or bridge only pickup sound? Like bass cut switches/pots, multiple tone caps, etc?

Could an always-middle-position setup be a reasonable lower cost solution for noisy, humming single coils?

[gckelloch]

I suppose you could find two identical very low or high L (inductance) SC pickups, and wire them in series or parallel respectively. You could either get an Nd magnet and try demagnetizing one, or just mount them next to each other and lower one down away from the strings. There are cheap 3H+ pickups around, but not much below 2H. Once you're in the ~$30/pickup range, you're into the Wilde NF series price point.

[brak]

Yes, most every guitar with two single coils (or single coil PUs sold as a set) are RWRP wound so the middle position is automatically hum cancelling (the two single coils become one humbucker). The idea is to keep the original pickups and simply run it in the middle position all the time. And if running it that way all the time, does it make sense to wire it to support that?
Get rid of the pickup selector and use the space in the cavity for other ways of achieving tones similar to those lost.
Like could a much larger than usual tone cap (or lower resistance pots) replicate the fat neck-only rhythm pickup sound while a strangle switch or bass-cut pot could take the place of the crisp clean, bridge-only lead tones?

[gckelloch]

For ~$100 you could get a Wilde NF L-290SL or L-298SL and a Q-Filter and have all that and a bag of chips. Seriously, The Q-Filter can be wired with different caps on a switch to get a variable mid-dip at different freqs with a higher freq peak for a neck-like tone or whatever else. FI, to have the lower knee in the 1.5~2.5kHz range instead of the standard ~600Hz. Those pickups are 4.2H and 4.9H with great low-end punch for a P90-like tone with 250k pots and the Q-Filter at 10 (disengaged). A ~10k resistor on the Q-filter reduces bass when the knob is down low, but you could put that or a cap in series with the pickup on a switch to reduce bass if you want. You may also want a tone pot, but you'd then want at least two of the three pots to be 500k. That's very versatile setup.

[newey]

brak-

Are we talking 3 single coils like a Strat or just 2 like a Mustang?

If we're only talking 2 pickups, you can certainly wire it so that both are always on for hum-cancellation. You could also consider using a blend pot to blend between the two while still retaining hum-cancellation so long as the other coil is still in the circuit to some extent. This would approximate having each pickup alone.

You can certainly do some tone alterations with various caps, etc. You can probably get close to a single coil sound. Can you get it to sound exactly like just one single coil? If you can, every pickup maker around will beat a path to your door. Getting 2 hum-cancelling coils to sound exactly like a single coil has been the Holy Grail for pickup manufacturers ever since Seth Lover patented the humbucker. And almost 70 years later, people still buy a lot of single coil guitars, while most of the proposed solutions (like stacked HBs, dummy coils and so forth) have a limited market.

If it's 3 single coils, there are 2 hum-canceling options assuming a RWRP middle pup. In that case a switch to select either of the 2-coil combos would seem to make sense.

[brak]

Thx for the feedback. Was talking about 2 single coils. Good point, I suppose that is the holy grail and I'm just asking a very stale question - generally.
But anyone like DiMarzio or other winders making money off stacked or side winding humbucking "singles" really wouldn't have any motivation to develop what I was hoping would work because it would cut into sales of their highest priced products.

[gckelloch]

Well, just like our fellow forum member ms's stacked design using Ferrite blades and isolator bars (?), the Wilde NF series do sound exactly like a SC without the hum i.e. no output or high-end loss because the total wind count isn't more than an average SC, the flux lines from the strings don't reach the magnetically isolated lower coil, and the poles are highly permeable high Q 400 series Stainless Steel that doesn't roll of the high-end, but increases efficiency compared to AlNiCo. The string pull is about like AlNiCo II, which means no Strat-itus-- especially with just one pickup. They also have stronger note fundamentals than most SC's due to the thinner wire coils on the short bobbins. The bridge models are higher inductance than a typical Fender, but that's what the Q-filter is for. The cap on it can be left off or bypassed if you just want variable induction reduction down to ~1H for a resonance peak in the ~10kHz range (with the accompanying bass reduction). Of the two I recommended, I'd go for the L290SL. The slightly lower inductance should give it a pretty flat response out to 4kHz with the equivalent of two 250k pots and a ~200pF cable, and it's a bit louder than the L298SL-- like the fattest, punchiest (but still articulate) Tele bridge pickup you'd ever want.

The Q-Filter works with any pickup, but I don't know how well the lower coil is isolated in other stacked designs, and it's more versatile with a higher L pickup. Zexcoil has some affordable higher L models, but I'm not sure if the Q is low as with a typical Steel pole pickup. They also have highly permeable special alloy poles for strong output but are a bit more money.

Blending SC pickups in parallel does introduce hum as the blended pickup signal is reduced. If the blended pickup is heard, there'll be some comb-filtering. You could try demagnetizing it. The Q-Filter is very low Z at only a few 100 Ohms, but 1.4H. It doesn't sap highs, or cause comb-filtering or audible hum. It's really the best passive solution, if not a bit overpriced. An active semi-parametric eq would be an option, but for batteries and cost.

For even more versatility, you could use a 1~2nF cap on the tone knob for a nice 1.6~2.2khz peak when down. That peak will be lower if the Q-filter is down and also has a 1~2nF cap in series, but much higher if it doesn't also have a cap in series. I'd opt for closer to 1nF for both it and the tone knob to get a ~2.2kHz peak with the Q-filter up & tone knob down, and ~1.6kHz with both the Q-filter and tone knobs down. You can then get a very dark tone with both knobs down and the standard 22nF cap on the Q-filter. That's 4 total peak options (including the flat out to 4kHz), along with the variable mid-dip/higher freq peak Q-Filter tonal options.

[gckelloch]

For less than half that price, you could try using two highish inductance twin-blade pickups with 500k pots and there wouldn't be any noise however they are wired. You could mount one in the control panel, and wire it on a switch in parallel, or on a 500k pot as a blend. You can still get the 1.6-2.2kHz peak with a 1nF tone pot cap when the blend is fully off, or just put the cap on a switch and use two 500k pots. The Fleor A5 models look done right and the A5 bar can be demagnetized if you want.

You could get one 6-7k or 9-10k and one 12-13k and see which you prefer in the bridge. The parallel or fully blended sound will be a bit more than half the inductance of the lower inductance one. You could instead just get one 12-13k and wire it on a series/parallel switch, but the parallel sound might be too low output depending on the inductance. My guess is they use 42AWG to 43AWG wire. If 43AWG, the 12-13k may be in the 8~10H range, and the 9-10k model is probably 5~6H. The 6-7k might be 42AWG, in which case it would be 4~5H

Wire the blend and tone pots on a P/P pot or switch to toggle between them. That way, you can set up the knobs as you like for each song and switch between them, and the blend pot won't load down the pickup along with the tone pot. Leave the extra outer lug on the blend pot open so the high-end is progressively less reduced as the second pickup is blended in. You could ground it if you think it's too bright. Your call. I'd ground the outer lug on the tone pot if you use a ~1nF cap. That's what I do. The peak may be too strong otherwise.

You could use just one A500k P/P pot for that setup if you want.  Just run a wire from the A500k V pot to the A500k P/P pot as you would to a tone pot. Run a wire from the middle lug of the P/P pot to the middle lugs of the switch. Wire either the upper or lower outer switch lugs on that side to the second pickup, which then goes to ground. The outer lug next to that then goes to the ~1nF cap to ground to keep the peak level up higher as the blend pickup is added in. To keep the peak level from being too strong on the tone cap only switch setting, you could wire a 5~10k R from the other outer lug on the cap side to the lug where the cap is wired.

www.amazon.com/dp/B09YCBD4C4

It may be that the Steel blades reduce the high end too much for the single coil sound you want with the blend fully up.  To save $7, you could use the cheaper ceramic-powered twin blade below for the blend pickup, and try carefully pulling off the magnet and removing the blades.  That should bring the inductance down to like ~1.5H, and the Q way up.  It should have stronger highs, but the output will drop more when fully blended. 

I've never tried using an "air coil" HB pickup as a Q-Filter.  It may not have a strong enough peak for you, but there's only one way to find out.

www.amazon.com/Yootones-Humbucker-Compatible-Stratocaster-Telecaster/dp/B096WSNZZW

After all that, it would be easier and cheaper to just get whatever noiseless pickup you want, set it up for an extended SC high-end, and use a low-value cap on a tone knob for the P90-like 1.6~2.2kHz boost. The 6-7k Fleor Twin Blade would probably be good for the Tele-like SC sound with 500k pots, and a 1~1.5nF cap on the tone knob should work for the upper-mid boost.  It may be more like 3~3.5H if it has 43AWG wire, which would be even better for a SC sound.  I'm just going by the stated inductance values of similar cheap twin blades.

The only advantage of the complicated and more expensive blend option is that you could use a cap in front of the blend pickup to get a midrange dip, but that might not work very well with any Fe core pickup or a Hi-Z "air coil" HB. The only way to guarantee proper performance for that option would be with the $100+ Wilde L-290SL & Q-Filter option, and switch between the Q-filter and ~1nF tone cap on an A250k P/P pot. Again, you can also switch between Q-Filter caps with an A250k P/P Volume pot if you want.

[ashcatlt]

I almost never use N or B alone, so could definitely live with a two pickup guitar with no switch. If you want it to sound more or less like a single SC, either use really light-wound pickups in series or really hot ones in parallel.

You can try to cut bass to get a bridge-ish sound and maybe roll off some higher frequencies for a neckish sound, but I don’t think it’ll be particularly convincing. It’ll still have the harmonic balance of N+B just filtered which is significantly different from the harmonic balance of N or B alone.

[gckelloch]

I misread that you wanted a B & N option. Here's the cheapest option yet. You'd need a 3-pos Super Switch and a ceramic or Nd magnet to get hum canceling in all positions, but you could get this cheap ~3.5H/ea flat AV pole SC's:

www.byoguitar.com/Guitars/High-Output-Single-Coil-Pickups__BYO-3SCB.aspx

Fully deGauss and mount one of the two same polarity pickups in the M pickguard pos, and lower it as far as possible to minimize any potential tonal contribution. It looks like there is a chassis ground wire on the pickups. if it's connected to either of the coil leads you would need to cut it b4 it connects to the coil lead and wire it separately to ground to make sure there is no hum in any position.

Mount the other opposing polarity pickups in the B & N positions. I'd first press them together top to bottom for ~3 seconds to partially deGauss them because I find AV poles too strong but it's your call. You might also try attaching a Cu-plated steel plate to the bridge pickup for Tele-like punch and warmth. AliExpress sells them cheap.

Use two racks of the Super Switch to parallel connect the B & N pickups in pos 2 by wiring the B pickup from the pos 1 lug on one rack to ground, and the N pickup to the pos 3 lug on the other rack to ground, and solder a wire from each of those lugs to the pos 2 lugs on those two racks.

To configure the last two racks to parallel connect the M pickup to pos 1 & 3 (yet phase-reversed in the correct pos for hum-canceling), you just need to wire one of the common lugs of the last two racks to ground, and wire the other common lug to the commons of the first two racks -- all of which go to the Volume pot. Then, you just wire the M pickup leads to the pos 1 lug on each of the last two racks (in the correct phase for hum-canceling with the B pickup), and run two crisscrossing wires from both pos 1 lugs to both pos 3 lugs.

You can run whichever tone pots off the spare lugs on the first two racks for pos B1 & N3, and off lug 2 from the rack of the last two with its common wired to the V pot. You might want to wire a ~200k R from that spare pos 1 lug to ground if it doesn't have a dedicated tone knob.

The inductance should be ~1.75H for each switch position, but pos might notably be louder than the others. You may get better balance per switch position by using 20~40k resistors instead of wires to connect the B1 & N3 lugs to the pos 2 lugs on the first two racks.

Assuming 250k pots, turning the tone knob down to ~7.5 for pos 1 & 3 should sound like a typical ~2.5H strat pickup, but you'd have to see.

[stevewf]

Another, more tame, option (which I picked up here in GN2, by the way) would be the broadbucker sound. I've seen that done with two coils, one of which gets shunted via a capacitor (in parallel). Many people say it gives the 60Hz hum canceling like a humbucker, but that the highs are more pronounced; like a hum-canceling single coil. Personally, I like the sound.

I've used it on "vintage" wound coils with a 22nF cap. One thing, though: I did notice quite a bit of noise increase when the cap got added to the circuit. I have a no-load 250K pot for blending between full humbucking to full broadbucking, and I can hear the noise increase as I turn the knob. Perhaps I'm using the wrong cap value? Though I thought the value would have to be a lot higher to allow 60Hz noise in; so it might be non-mains noise that's getting in.

Blend knob or not, it's an option for the serial sound, if you choose to include one.

[stevewf]

And now that I'm thinking about it (thanks!), SOoP sound - Series Out-of-Phase. It's no single-coil sound, of course, but it'll certainly add variety. Only problem is that it's gonna foster the hum, if your In-Phase arrangements are hum-cancelling.

As for Parallel Out-of-Phase, it can sometimes sound like... POoP. I think it depends strongly on pickup positioning along the scale length, more strongly than SOoP does. Notably, in a Strat, when the middle coil is iin POoP with one of the outer coils, the resulting sound is thin and weak. With a Strat, I've found that light choke on one of the coils helps a lot with that; like 68nF.

As opposed to the Strat's closely placed coils, on one guitar in particular with widely-separated coils, I've gotten good sounds with POoP without a choke capacitor.

Putting caps in place as described above is often call "half out of phase", which I don't like. I prefer "filtered out of phase", applied to both serial and parallel. [/nomenclature_crusade]

Again, though, if your In-Phase sounds are hum-canceling, then the SOoP, SFOoP, POoP and PFOoP arrangements will gather hum.

[gckelloch]

Yeah, any divergence from two nearly identical SC pickups OoP will introduce hum. If you use a really high-value cap in series with one of the pickups that doesn't roll off enough low-end to introduce significant low freq hum, the high-end roll-off on the other pickup may be low enough so the hum harmonics in the 2-4kHz (critical hearing band) are audible. That can be more annoying than low freq hum. There's really no way around it.

brak did say he wanted a B & N SC pickup configuration, so I didn't suggest an adjacent coil HB.

I found one possibly even better solution. If these $20 AV pole SC sets are wound with 42AWG, the inductance would be in the 5~6H range-- putting parallel combinations right in the standard Fender Strat range. They'd be 3~3.5H if 43AWG. I doubt 9k+ of 42AWG can fit on a bobbin and look that compact. A 43AWG coil has a slightly lower Q and maybe stronger note fundamentals. That might be better since the parallel inductance will be relatively low. Either way, it would be better than the $25 7.5k set.

www.ebay.com/itm/313687069256?

You might order two sets in case you get a bad pickup. You could then use the B and two M pickups for the configuration I outlined in my last post. The wind count of the B & M in the set should be the same, and just the different pole spacing changes the DCR value. The clear bobbins and covers are kinda' cool, but there are also colored cover versions available. It looks like the poles in those sets are not grounded, but you can easily ground them with a wire under some conductive adhesive Cu tape on the bottom. That can further reduce noise without affecting tone.