Help with an atypical wiring diagram for HSS (no split HB)

[fuzzyoctaves]

All the diagrams I have found use some form of split on the HB...

Controls are: 1 volume, 1 tone, one 5 way rotary switch

Position 1. (Full Counter Clockwise) Bridge Humbucker pickup alone

Position 2. Middle and Neck SCs in Parallel

Position 3. Middle and Neck SCs in Series

Position 4. Middle SC alone

Position 5. (Full Clockwise) Neck SC alone

[newey]

fuzzyoctaves-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

one 5 way rotary switch

Have you already purchased the rotary switch and/or already installed it into the guitar? Reason I ask is we'll need to know how many poles are on the switch.

You could do this with a 4-pole Superswitch. Not sure if 3 poles would be enough, have to look closer, but I doubt it. But a 2-pole rotary for sure won't cut it here.

If you already have the switch, posting a pic of it would help with the diagram, so it would match what you have.

[fuzzyoctaves]

Thanks so much for the assistance.

I have already bought the switch and sent it to the builder. It is a 4-pole, but not a "superswitch:"  www.allparts.com/collections/switches/products/ep-4925-5-position-rotary-switch

[newey]

OK, 4 poles, you should be good. Might be a few days before I can get to a diagram, reality intrudes. But others may step up to the plate in the meanwhile, too.

Not saying it can't be done exactly as you have specified (it probably can be), but are you firmly wedded to the specific order of selections? Won't know until we look closer, but if series and parallel needed to be swapped around, for example, would that be of concern?

[stevewf]

Here's steve's try. Careful, I often get it wrong; best if this gets a cross-check.



The two decks of the rotary are separated for readability. I drew this with the assumption that the Middle and Neck pickups are RWRP relative to each other.

[newey]

stevewf- Thanks for stepping in on this. Your diagram checks by me, but it's hard to see the white jumper wires on the upper right pole of the switch. Looks like 2,3 and 5 are jumpered together there, which is right, but it's hard to see.

I wouldn't wire the tone control as stevewf shows it, but that's a matter of preference.

fuzzyoctaves- A second set of eyes on the diagram wouldn't hurt, but this should do it. Mind what I said about the white jumper wires.

[fuzzyoctaves]

Oh Wow! I found the right corner of the interwebz! You guys RULE - thank you both so much!!

How else would I wire the tone pot Newey?

Also (since you guys are obviously the experts!): Since this is HSS and I want the HB to be using 500k pots, for the singlecoils,  you recommend using the "resistor trick" as detailed at the bottom of this link: www.fralinpickups.com/2021/06/10/4-unique-hss-strat-wiring-tips-for-more-versatility/

If so, how could I adjust the diagram accordingly?

[newey]

fuzzyoctaves-

stevewf shows the tone control wired before the volume control, which is often called "'50's wiring". Some like it that way, which is why I said it's a matter of preference. I prefer the "modern" wiring, where the switch is wired to the V pot, and the tone is wired off the volume control. JohnH discusses the differences here.

As for the pot values, I think some people make too big a deal out of the idea that 500K pots are only for HBs and SCs want 250K pots. That's sort of the standard wisdom, but it gets treated as if it's one of the Ten Commandments by some folks. Your single coil pickups will be a bit brighter at full tone than they would be with 250K pots, but the difference is not (to my ears, anyway) so dramatic that it is worth worrying over. There will also be a bit of difference in the range of variation as you turn the tone control down. But none of this is anything I worry about too much. If the SCs are too bright, turning the tone knob down a bit will deal with that. I'd rather do that than lose some of the single coil "sparkle" by adding a resistor just to try to mimic 250K pots. But again, a matter of one's preference.

[fuzzyoctaves]

Thanks again so much Newey.

I really want as much of the SCs sparkle as possible and I am used to using the tone knob with PU changes anyway so it seems clear that I'll just roll with 500k pots and call it a day!

Also, the modern wiring sounds like it is a better fit for me as well. Would I just swap the Pot Vol/Tone labels on the diagram?

[newey]

Aug 7, 2024 11:07:07 GMT -5 fuzzyoctaves said:

Would I just swap the Pot Vol/Tone labels on the diagram?

No, there's more to it than that. A Volume pot has all three lugs used, while a tone pot has only 2 lugs used. A tone pot also has a capacitor. So you can't just switch the labels.

Here's an example, this is from a wiring diagram from Fender for the Mustang which I have modified. I just show the V and T pots so you can see what I mean about the difference in wiring. I haven't shown the switch wiring or the pickup wiring. I also had to add ground wires between the pots, as a Mustang has a metal control plate to which everything gets grounded.

The diagram is drawn as if you are looking from the rear at the backs of the pots. Also note the orientation of the 2 pots- in the diagram, their lugs are drawn facing each other, In that orientation, the clockwise lug of one is across from the counterclockwise lug on the other, and vice versa. If the pots had their lugs pointing in the same direction, then both clockwise lugs would be on the same side. It does matter which ones are clockwise and counterclockwise, because if you wire the pots opposite of what is shown, the controls will be wired for a lefty and operate in the opposite direction of rotation. Just something to be aware of as you wire it, I can't tell you the number of times I've wired it wrong way around and had to go swap the wires left to right.

[reTrEaD]

Aug 7, 2024 1:52:55 GMT -5 stevewf said:

Here's steve's try. Careful, I often get it wrong; best if this gets a cross-check.

Your diagram is correct. Newey mis-identified it as 50's wiring but it's actually modern wiring. Personally, I'd use modern wiring (as you have it) and add a parallel treble-bleed between the Wiper and CW lug of the volume control.

As far as pot values, If 500k is too bright for the SC pickups, the unused pole of the 4P5T could be employed to place a resistor or other tone dulling network between the CW lug of the volume control and ground. It could be a singular value or each of the four positions involving SCs could have it's own unique value. For instance, position 3 might be left open since the two coils in series are likely to be similar to a HB tone already.

[stevewf]

Here's a re-do of the image, hopefully with more visible white wires - thanks for feedback, newey.



And now I'm confused about tone wiring nomenclature. I thought that wiring the tone pot to the volume pot's input lug is called "modern" and that wiring the tone pot to the volume pot's output lug is called "50's".  Edit: confirmed by reTrEaD. The green box is 50's wiring

[stevewf]

OK, and so now here's a try at adding:
- Treble bleed using parallel resistor and capacitor
- kluge for varying the pot resistance depending on selector switch popsition

Note: The new position of the tone cap in the drawing doesn't change the circuit; I moved it only in a vain attempt at another method for varying the pot behaviors, and I just left the drawing like this.

Of course, the cap and resistor values are merely suggested (and in the case of the tone control, not even suggested!).
The resistors wired to the 4th pole of the rotary switch should result in softening the tone for Middle alone and Middle+Neck (paralllel), and soften only a tiny bit in Neck Only; no softening in either of the series modes (Bridge HB or Middle x Neck). Lower resistor values mean more softening/dulling.
There's much written in this forum about treble bleeds. Here's my favorite thread on that: A better treble bleed circuit

[fuzzyoctaves]

You guys are awesome! Thank you all so much!!

The treble bleed sounds perfect to me!

Passing this on to my builder and will rewire my current HSS guitar to this setup myself.

Just a note as to why I want a circuit like this:

I am a big fan of ceramic bridge HBs as I cut my teeth on a PRS CE24 with the HFS bridge pickup and that is my standard for heavy rock tones. These PUs have a split coil sound that is not useful to me at all (I'll note that the VB neck PU in the CE24 splits better than any HB I have heard).  This makes the 2nd position on a standard HSS unusable for me. I love SC sound for cleans and mostly use a neck SC for that. I use a fairly hot bridge HB and 50s SCs. When I want that SC+Fuzz vibe, I like to use Neck+Mid SCs, but I want a little bit beefier sound for that, ergo SCs in series.

Thanks again!!

[reTrEaD]

Aug 7, 2024 15:16:51 GMT -5 stevewf said:

OK, and so now here's a try at adding:
- Treble bleed using parallel resistor and capacitor
- kluge for varying the pot resistance depending on selector switch popsition

I took the liberty of making some changes to your drawing. Everything is ultimately connected to the same places but they get there in a more direct path.

[fuzzyoctaves]

In this new drawing, is the top resistor 500k and the bottom one 1M?

[unreg]

Aug 9, 2024 11:25:40 GMT -5 fuzzyoctaves said:

In this new drawing, is the top resistor 500k and the bottom one 1M?

hi sir fuzzyoctaves.

I believe you’re correct since retread said:

Aug 8, 2024 10:04:13 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Everything is ultimately connected to the same places but they get there in a more direct path.

If you notice in stevewf’s diagram, the 500K and 1M resistors are both connected to ground via a separate ground connection. Now, in reTrEaD’s diagram the 500K and 1M resistors are “connected to the same places” on one side, while they are both grounded to the ground wire that’s also grounding that big circle potentiometer or switch. Sry, I don’t remember right now, but does the rest of that make sense?

[fuzzyoctaves]

Yes, that was my logic as well. Thanks much for validating it!!

[ashcatlt]

Aug 6, 2024 15:10:36 GMT -5 newey said:

But a 2-pole rotary for sure won't cut it here.

Well, now that we've got resistor switching happening, probably not, but the original request is just Baja wiring with a third pickup shoehorned in by itself at the end, and I'm pretty sure that can be done in two poles. Might take some reshuffling to make sure everything is in the position requested, but that's usually not a big deal. I personally always use sumgai's version that shorts the top coil rather than leaving it hanging from hot, but I think it works either way.

[reTrEaD]

Aug 9, 2024 11:25:40 GMT -5 fuzzyoctaves said:

In this new drawing, is the top resistor 500k and the bottom one 1M?

Yes. However, there are some things to know about the values.
1 - The values don't need to be exact. 500k is not a common value for fixed resistors. A 470k or 560k would be easily close enough.
2 - These are reasonable values but not necessarily optimum. 250k (220k or 270k) in parallel with your 500k volume and tone pots would mimic the loading your pickups would see if the volume and tone pots were 250k.

Aug 9, 2024 19:10:27 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Aug 6, 2024 15:10:36 GMT -5 newey said:

But a 2-pole rotary for sure won't cut it here.

Well, now that we've got resistor switching happening, probably not, but the original request is just Baja wiring with a third pickup shoehorned in by itself at the end, and I'm pretty sure that can be done in two poles.

Yep. If the (+) of the Neck pickup was permanently connected to the CW lug of the volume control, the upper right pole of the switch would be unnecessary. Of course the unused Neck pickup would be hanging from hot in positions 1 and 4. Not a deal-breaker but worth avoiding.

Aug 9, 2024 19:10:27 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

I personally always use sumgai's version that shorts the top coil rather than leaving it hanging from hot, but I think it works either way.

And personally I wouldn't. The antenna effect of the unused pickup (or a chunk of metal standing somewhat proud of the pickguard and the shielding it provides won't change if one end or both ends are connected to hot. But now, you would also have the unused coil shunted, something else I try to avoid. The cure is arguably worse than the disease. YMMV