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Post by stefmikhail on Sept 2, 2024 16:14:10 GMT -5
Hi there! I'm loving my telecaster but in the mood to refresh it.
Besides new pickups (which I have yet to decide on), I want to redo the wiring (or more clearly, have someone who knows what they're doing do it lol). Either way, I'm educating myself, and thought I would post on here what I'm looking for in wiring mods, and if any of you have an opinion etc
Install Push-Pull Pots; with both pots down then telecaster behave as is with modern switching and tone control.
Volume Pot Up: put pickups in series with tone control still active. (disable the three-way switch)
Tone Pot Up: engage circuit for Position 1 on a broadcaster - engage bridge pickup full, and have tone control now a blend, blending the neck pickup in as desired (in parallel). (disable three-way switch as well)
I would very much like opinions or advice on how to do this. I have lingering questions like: can I use the same type of pot for tone and blend? What happens if both pots are up (does one override the other? can you blend in series?)
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Post by stevewf on Sept 3, 2024 1:33:10 GMT -5
Hi.
At a glance, I think that getting all three functions (Normal 3-way with Tone&Vol; Series override with Tone&Vol; Parallel override, blended with Vol) would be complicated, if it's possible in the first place. If it is indeed possible, there are minds here at GuitarNuts2 that can figure it out. Not mine, though!
Still working at a glance, I think you can get a series override (that's what I call when a toggle puts the two pickups in series, regardless of the 3-way switch's position) at the pop of a push-pull switch.
I'm not as confident about a Bridge-only override with Neck fade-in (parallel). Repurposing the Tone pot might be tricky there because you'd have to extricate it from its grounding capacitor, which will probably require an extra switch pole. Push-pull switches usually a max of 2 poles, and I fear that both poles would already be taken by overriding to Bridge-only, so you'd be out of switch poles.
To answer your question about fading a coil that's in series, yes, it can be done. It's often applied to Humbuckers in a so-called "spin-a-split" arrangement. GuitarNuts2 can help you figure out how to implement it.
And then to answer the question about what kind of pot to be used as a fader, I'd say that you could certainly use a Tone pot for series fading.
A Tone pot could also be used for parallel fading, but you might get a weird taper. By "weird taper" I mean that all the change in tone would happen between 10 and 8 on the knob; turning it from 8 to zero would have almost no effect after that. It's functional, but harder to control and therefore less intuitive. Or, you could reverse the pot, and make it so that setting it to zero means maximum inclusion of the coil; that's also counterintuitive, since usually you'd expect 10 to have the maximum signal, but as a trade-off, you'd get a smoother taper.
Here're some alternatives, if you're amenable to buying new innards:
-A four-way selector switch. A 4-way can get you an extra position for that series arrangement.
-A dual-concentric pot. It physically puts two pots where there was one pot. You get a stacked pair of knobs to control the pots separately. Maybe you could get your Fader pot that way, without having to repurpose the Tone pot. The drawback is that the knobs don't look like a "factory" tele's knobs. Also, it might be a little finicky to twiddle one of the concentric knobs without disturbing the other one; depends on if you're a furious live gig player versus a situation where you have time to carefully adjust knobs.
-A mini-toggle switch crammed into the tele's control plate. You could get extra switch poles by using a 4-pole switch instead of a 2-pole push-pole. Again, the drawback is finickiness -- provided you can get that switch to physically fit in the control cavity and have its mounting space on the plate.
In summary, right now you have a pretty broad shopping list to put into a fairly small cart. I mean that you've listed a wide range of function, but the telecaster offers little in terms of control space. If you can narrow the focus, then I'm betting you've come to the right place for help.
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 3, 2024 9:51:48 GMT -5
Hello stefmikhail . Welcome to GN2. thought I would post on here what I'm looking for in wiring mods, and if any of you have an opinion etc I reckon the etc part means creating a drawing. I won't have time for that but I can offer my advice on an overview. Perhaps that will aid another one of the nuts in creating a drawing. Install Push-Pull Pots; with both pots down then telecaster behave as is with modern switching and tone control. No worries on that part. A typical push-pull has a DPDT switch so we'll try to accomplish this in a way that requires only 2 poles to make each change. And we'll need to be mindful of what might happen if BOTH push-pulls are up at the same time. Volume Pot Up: put pickups in series with tone control still active. (disable the three-way switch) This change is definitely possible with two poles. Here's how it's done: 3-way + Global Series switch the GuitarNutz (proper) wayAs a happy accident, that drawing has the Bridge pickup being "raised" in series mode and the Neck pickup as the "foundation". I reckon that should be the same method we use here to prevent serious problems when the tone put is in the up position. - One pole of the DPDT connects the Neck lug of the pickup selector to the (+) of the Neck pickup when pushed, or connects the Neck lug of the pickup selector when pulled. - The other pole of the DPDT connects the (-) of the Bridge pickup to ground when pushed, or connects the (-) of the Bridge pickup to the (+) of the Neck pickup when pulled. Tone Pot Up: engage circuit for Position 1 on a broadcaster - engage bridge pickup full, and have tone control now a blend, blending the neck pickup in as desired (in parallel). (disable three-way switch as well) One pole of the DPDT performs the same function as the first pole mentioned in the Volume push-pull. We'll nest them together in such a way that when either or both of them are pulled, the Neck lug of the pickup selector is connected to the Bridge lug of the pickup selector. The other pole of the pickup selector determines whether the lug of the Tone pot that normally connects to a capacitor (which has its other lead connected to ground), goes to that capacitor when pushed, or connects to a 15k resistor that is permanently wired to the (+) of the neck pickup when pulled. This means, when the Tone pot is pulled, the (+) of the Bridge pickup is always connected to the CW lug of the Volume control and the (+) of the Neck pickup is routed through the 15k resistor and the Tone pot (which now functions as a blend pot) to the CW lug of the volume control. Two notes:1 - The "blend" pot has the maximum contribution of the Neck pickup when the control is fully counter-clockwise. 2 - The 15k resistor limits the maximum contribution of the Neck pickup. If you want the blend to allow more Neck contribution (or contribution equal to that of the Bridge pickup), reduce the value of the 15k resistor (or just replace it with a wire). I have lingering questions like: can I use the same type of pot for tone and blend? Yes. In both functions, an A-taper pot will give the smoothest result. I reckon a 250k value should work well. What happens if both pots are up (does one override the other? can you blend in series?) If both pots are up at the same time, your pickups will be in series and the "blend" pot will span from the CW of the volume pot (hot) and the series link of the two pickups. This means it spans across the Bridge pickup. You will have maximum contribution of the Bridge pickup when the blend pot is fully clockwise. Minimum (or zero, if the 15k resistor is replaced with a wire) contribution of the Bridge pickup occurs when the blend is counter-clockwise. All things considered, this seems like it will provide an interesting variety of tones. You'll find yourself fiddling with the tone/blend pot quite often as you switch through the four possible switching modes. But imho, that shouldn't be a deal-breaker. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 5, 2024 14:01:41 GMT -5
I reckon the etc part means creating a drawing. I won't have time for that but I can offer my advice on an overview. I managed to find some time so here's a drawing. Needs vetting, though.  |
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Post by newey on Sept 5, 2024 17:28:59 GMT -5
Trying to wrap my head around this one, was off track at first until I saw the arrows marking the "pull" were facing each other . . . Anyway, I didn't spot any errors in reTrEaD's diagram. But my confidence level is not high, so let's get a deciding vote of confidence. |
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Post by stevewf on Sept 6, 2024 1:23:44 GMT -5
It's the first time I've seen a drawing of a control plate lifted off of the cavity and flipped 180 degrees (like you'd see if you opened your Tele and twisted the plate just so). As such, I'll need time to soak it in!
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 9, 2024 12:25:07 GMT -5
It's the first time I've seen a drawing of a control plate lifted off of the cavity and flipped 180 degrees (like you'd see if you opened your Tele and twisted the plate just so). This is how Fender does many of the Telecaster wiring diagrams they publish. In fact, that was the starting point for this drawing. support.fender.com/en-us/knowledgebase/article/KA-01836 |
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Post by stevewf on Sept 9, 2024 23:39:15 GMT -5
Do today's top-brand guitars come with similar documentation?
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Post by newey on Sept 10, 2024 4:52:16 GMT -5
Do today's top-brand guitars come with similar documentation? No, and most of yesterday's top-brand guitars didn't either. Wiring diagrams for some Gibson models are tough to find, and the Gibson website itself doesn't help much. Same with Ibanez and many others. Fender kind of stands out in that regard, the customer support section of the website has manuals and wiring diagrams for the vast majority (if not all) of the guitars they have made. Meanwhile, still looking for a second opinion on RT's diagram. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 12, 2024 19:53:51 GMT -5
Meanwhile, still looking for a second opinion on RT's diagram. Me too. Perhaps Yogi B or JohnH or one of the other nuts might be willing to put eyes on this? |
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Post by Yogi B on Sept 13, 2024 0:15:56 GMT -5
Looks good to me.
My only comment is I would recommend halving, thirding, or shorting the 15k resistor. 15k covers around 30—40% the range of a typical 250k log pot, and resistances from zero up to the pickups' DCRs (which are likely less than 15k) represents roughly half of the total change available (in both modes).
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 13, 2024 8:57:00 GMT -5
My only comment is I would recommend halving, thirding, or shorting the 15k resistor. If you're wondering why I went there ... when I did some internet searching on "Broadcaster" (referenced in threadstarter OP) I found Fralin and others using that value. Also, Fender uses a 24k on their "51 Nocaster" wiring. Personally I'd omit it completely and make a direct connection (or use a much smaller value, maybe 2.2k so the fully blended parallel isn't exactly the same ratio as the #2 position of the 3-way). |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 13, 2024 9:23:06 GMT -5
I'm not seeing the up up mode series blend mode.
But in any case I wouldn't think the resistor is desirable though. Neck to neck x bridge series blending is a great tone, best achieved by shunting B with the pot. But tbe biggest variation of tones occur in the first few k of the pot.
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 13, 2024 19:14:59 GMT -5
I'm not seeing the up up mode series blend mode. Pull for the volume p-p is downward on the page. Pull for the tone p-p is upward on the page. Left side of volume p-p creates the series link. Left side of the tone p-p creates the connection for the blend pot and resistor to the series link. |
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Post by stevewf on Sept 14, 2024 2:26:25 GMT -5
Amazing. I didn't see it happening... but GN2 shines through yet again.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 14, 2024 16:14:35 GMT -5
thanks reTrEaD, all good. The bit I hadn't figured was how in the series mode, where the 3-way is inactive, it becomes a point of connection with all lugs joined. A clever scheme. I was most interested in the up-up setting (series blend) because it's my favourite version of how to blend a neck and bridge together and I use it on my Strat. Starting with a clear neck single, bridge is shunted, and as you start to turn the pot; its like adding a mid boost and it's not muddy since its a bridge pu that's being added. With a log pot, there's a smooth and useful tonal range from 0 to about mid-way, then just a little more up to max series blend. A nice enhancement of this mode in this Tele scheme, is how the tone cap gets out of circuit and there's no tone pot then, since it's now being re-purposed as a blender. This is ideal in a series-blend mode, keeping tone-sucking load off the circuit. On my Strat, I get this with a no-load pot, but of course it has three knobs not two. This scheme also has a mode with a full series connection, with tone pot, for when a very thick tone is wanted. And it gives a bright no-load neck tone when at minimum series blend. A stripped back wish: If I wired such a Tele, knowing that the up-up mode is all I'd want in addition to the stock settings, I'd try to figure out that one added mode using just one switch for quicker transitions..... |
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 14, 2024 23:05:59 GMT -5
A stripped back wish: If I wired such a Tele, knowing that the up-up mode is all I'd want in addition to the stock settings, I'd try to figure out that one added mode using just one switch for quicker transitions..... With an S1 or 4PDT, no problem. With a standard DPDT push-pull you come up one pole shy of having a real blender. But you can get pretty close. The bigger the tone cap, the more this acts like a true blender in series mode.  |
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Post by Yogi B on Sept 15, 2024 8:42:35 GMT -5
With an S1 or 4PDT, no problem. With a standard DPDT push-pull you come up one pole shy of having a real blender. But you can get pretty close. You can get closer in 2/3 of the series selector switch positions and an actual blender in the remaining position by using a dual-gang tone/blend pot. That's the left of the below schematics. The other two are experiments in utilizing divider-type rather than shunt-type series blending, they're not as pure but should still be fairly usable. The centre has divider-type in all three series positions; the right has divider-type in pos 3 and shunt-type in pos 1 & 2. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 15, 2024 19:22:42 GMT -5
That's the left of the below schematics. I reckon that should be quite good indeed, if the desire is to be able completely remove the Bridge content at fully CCW. It does that in all three positions. It does require two new pots: a push-pull for the volume and a dual gang for the tone/blend. But probably worth the investment. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 15, 2024 23:13:02 GMT -5
Yogi B , if someone preferred to have a true blender in all 3 positions of the selector, I had a thought. (I hope you won't be offended by my butchering of your drawing.)
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Post by Yogi B on Sept 16, 2024 10:31:35 GMT -5
Yogi B, if someone preferred to have a true blender in all 3 positions of the selector, I had a thought. Well spotted! I should've seen that — most of my time was spent fiddling with the other two (and I still managed to botch one of those). The fix (or equivalent) can also be applied to the other two. For the right-hand variation this also removes the influence of the tone-gang upon the blend-gang when in series mode. For the centre variation the tone control is placed in parallel with the blender's treble bleed in positions 1 & 2: therefore it won't have a huge impact, but will cause the low-mids to come in a little faster at the lower end of the blend pot. (Both still have the 'doubling-ish' of the tone control on pos 1 & 2 in parallel mode.) All three redrawn to better show the similarity in overall structure: It also occurred to me that the following (blend in pos 1 & 2, straight neck pickup in pos 3) is possible using a regular single-gang pot:
The preparing a raw mass into a more viable product. |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 16, 2024 14:52:13 GMT -5
Nice work on the minimised versions!
I think, if it was mine, I'd be using a toggle just because I prefer them to push-pull's, and the space between knobs on a Tele is enough to fit it comfortably.
A three-pole toggle is easily available and would be enough to switch from standard three-way to series blending, no-load neck to neck x bridge. The toggle switch would be the only new part needed.
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 17, 2024 15:27:17 GMT -5
Well spotted! I should've seen that I've lost count of the number of times you spotted a clever twist to one of my schemes. Glad I could return the favor. It also occurred to me that the following (blend in pos 1 & 2, straight neck pickup in pos 3) is possible using a regular single-gang pot: I'd give that a mixed review. In one the three positions of the selector switch, you can't go directly to series mode. However, you do have an actual blend pot and you achieved this with only a DPDT so it is still rather clever. I think, if it was mine, I'd be using a toggle just because I prefer them to push-pull's, and the space between knobs on a Tele is enough to fit it comfortably. A three-pole toggle is easily available and would be enough to switch from standard three-way to series blending, no-load neck to neck x bridge. The toggle switch would be the only new part needed. Definitely the least expensive option that gets you exactly where you (personally) want to go. |
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