Wiring dilemma - unpredictable pickup selector outputs

[milkbeard]

Wiring dilemma - unpredictable pickup selector outputs


I am attempting to take a (supposedly) previously used wiring diagram that works and add a few switches. I have wired it up and tested it with a screwdriver and amp, and the results are…. very unpredictable (see below for the strange pickup outputs I am getting). I am guessing that one of the elements that I added is causing the issue. I added the phase switch and the push pull switches. I suspect one of those is the culprit but not sure where to start. Can anyone here shed some light?


Neck PU, Series down = ❌ ❌

Neck PU, Series up = ❌ ✅

Middle PU, Series up = ❌ ✅

Middle PU, Series down = ✅ ✅

Bridge PU, Series down = ✅ ✅

Bridge PU, Series up = ❌ ❌



Wiring diagrams here:
Top diagram is the original, which supposedly works. Bottom shows my hamfisted additions (phase and push pull pots):
imgur.com/a/bdJsvyE

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EDIT:

[newey]

Nov 7, 2024 11:53:11 GMT -5 milkbeard said:

Neck PU, Series down = ❌ ❌

Neck PU, Series up = ❌ ✅

Middle PU, Series up = ❌ ✅

Middle PU, Series down = ✅ ✅

Bridge PU, Series down = ✅ ✅

Bridge PU, Series up = ❌ ❌

Not understanding this chart. There is no "middle PU" on either diagram. Also, the two red "X"s don't tell me which pickup is which. Please do a table showing what pickups are operating in each switch position.

At first blush, the diagram that you used as a starting point does work, but it suffers from a malady we often see with a series/parallel switch. The series/parallel switch doesn't override the 3-way pickup selector, so you get dead spots if the 3-way is set to the bridge position. This post is required reading. while the dicussion there is concerning an LP-style 3-way, the diagram you used suffers from the same problem with the 3-way minitoggle.

Can't say more without a better table as I said above, but just at first blush, I also think you'd be better off wiring the phase switch off the bridge pickup given that the neck pickup is the one were the "hot" is being switched to make the series connection.

[milkbeard]

Nov 7, 2024 12:41:11 GMT -5 newey said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:53:11 GMT -5 milkbeard said:

Neck PU, Series down = ❌ ❌

Neck PU, Series up = ❌ ✅

Middle PU, Series up = ❌ ✅

Middle PU, Series down = ✅ ✅

Bridge PU, Series down = ✅ ✅

Bridge PU, Series up = ❌ ❌

Not understanding this chart. There is no "middle PU" on either diagram. Also, the two red "X"s don't tell me which pickup is which. Please do a table showing what pickups are operating in each switch position.

At first blush, the diagram that you used as a starting point does work, but it suffers from a malady we often see with a series/parallel switch. The series/parallel switch doesn't override the 3-way pickup selector, so you get dead spots if the 3-way is set to the bridge position. This post is required reading. while the dicussion there is concerning an LP-style 3-way, the diagram you used suffers from the same problem with the 3-way minitoggle.

Can't say more without a better table as I said above, but just at first blush, I also think you'd be better off wiring the phase switch off the bridge pickup given that the neck pickup is the one were the "hot" is being switched to make the series connection.

Hello newey, sorry I meant middle pickup position on the selector switch. Left mark is for bridge, right mark is for neck pickup

Bridge / Neck

Neck position, Series down = ❌ ❌

Neck position, Series up = ❌ ✅

Middle position, Series up = ❌ ✅

Middle position, Series down = ✅ ✅

Bridge position, Series down = ✅ ✅

Bridge position, Series up = ❌ ❌


I’m confused because the original diagram worked on another persons build. Are you saying that the issue would be present in the original diagram also?

[newey]

Before we can see if your modification of the original diagram will work, we need to be sure that diagrm is correct. I know you said it worked in someone else's wiring, but we don't know that the diagram exactly corresponds to what was wired in the guitar. The person may have spotted the issue(s) and corrected it "on the fly" so to speak, without going back and changing the diagram. Or maybe a handwritten diagram was used, and there was an error when it was redrawn on the computer.

There are three things I see here. I'm not sure these things explain all of your issues but I think it explains some of them.

First, let's look at the series/parallel switch and trace out the wire path for the parallel position of the switch. Your table says "switch up" or "switch down". I will take that to mean that when you write "up" the upper set of contacts, as shown on the original diagram, are connected to the center common lugs, and "down" connects the commons to the lower two lugs, again as per the diagram (This is the opposite of the position of the actual switch lever IRL, so I want to be clear here.)

In order to have the neck and bridge pickups in parallel, the "hot" connection of each pickup has to somehow connect to the output jack, and the ground has to connect to . . .er . . ground In the diagram, the "hot" wire of the bridge pickup isa permanently wired to the output via the volume pot- this will be one end of the "series chain" when in series mode. The neck ground wire is permanently grounded, so that is the opposite end of the series chain. The neck hot and the bridge ground are the ones that get switched to connect together at the series switch, or alternatively to be disconnected from each other when parallel mode is selected.

So, with the series/parallel switch set to series ("up" position), the Bridge ground wire connects to the neck hot, as it should to make the series connection. But when we switch to parallel, the neck hot does get connected to the output via the 3-way switch, in both the neck and center positions of the 3-way switch, as it should. But in the parallel "down" position, our bridge ground wire connects to . . .nothing. We have the bridge pickup "hot" connected to output via the V pot, but the ground is disconnected, so we don't get any output from the bridge pickup when the S/P switch is set to parallel. This is easily corrected- simply ground the lower left-hand lug of the S/P switch so the bridge is grounded in the parallel setting. This issue is why I question whether the other person really followed the same diagram we're looking at here. You carried the original diagram wiring over to your diagram, so it has the same issue.

The second issue here is the one that is dealt with in the post by reTrEaD, setting out the "Proper Guitarnuts" method of wiring a series/parallel switch. This isn't necessarily an error, many people (and guitar manufacturers wire their S/P switches the way it is shown in the diagram. But around here we think our way is better (actually, we probably can't claim any credit for this, it was probably done way before this site ever existed.) But, let's look at how the series setting works so you understand the issue here. As I said above, the neck ground is one end of the chain, and when the S/P switch is "up", the series setting does connect the bridge ground to the neck hot, as it should. But in order to have output in series, the other end of the chain, the bridge hot, has to connect to output. Here, the bridge hot connects to the V pot at the other end of the chain, and from there to the 3-way pickup selector. The 3-way then connects the bridge hot to the output, so we have our desired "series chain"- but only when the pickup selector is in either the bridge or center positions. When the 3-way is set to neck, the bridge hot is disconnected, so you won't have any output. The better way is to wire the S/P switch to bypass the 3-way switch entirely, taking the series chain straight to the output. That way, you will have both pickups in series regardless of the setting of the 3-way pickup selector- no dead spot. Again, please refer to the post I linked to for the "guitarnuts way".

The third issue is more a matter of personal taste, not something that would cause your malfunctions- I think doing the above should fix most of that. But assuming that you are using two DiMarzio HBs as per the diagram, your coil cut switches will cut both the neck and bridge pickups to the slug coil (the red/black wire pair). This means that, when you have both HBs split and you're in the center position of the selector so that both are on, the combination will not be hum-cancelling. To get hum-cancellation when both pickups are split requires wiring one of the 2 HBs differently- you wire the red and green together instead of the black/white pair, and wire the black to hot and the white to ground. This will give you one screw coil combined with one slug coil, so the combo will be humcancelling- it's just a humbucker with its two coils spaced widely apart.I highly recommend wiring for hum-cancellation, but again, this isn't a deal-breaker, it will work as it is shown, it just may be noisier without wiring for hum-cancellation.

As I look at it again, I think your addition of the phase switch is fine, so start by dealing with the issues above, and if you still have dead spots we'll suss that out. Once we have a correct diagram, and you wire it accordingly, further problems are likely soldering issues, not issues with the circuit design like we are discussing here.

[milkbeard]

Wow! What a thoughtful response, thank you.

Shortly before you replied I completely disconnected and bypassed the phase and series switch, just to see what would happen. Sure enough, the pickup selector worked exactly as expected. So you are right, of course. I’m trying to digest everything in your message. I’m very intrigued by the Guitar Nutz Way. I’m not sure I understand what you mean by sending the series switch straight to the output jack. Would that require a different wiring plan for the switch or is it simpler than that?

[sumgai]

milkbeard ,

Sorry, I seem to be remiss in welcoming you to the forum, so;

Hi, and to The NutzHouse!

Nov 7, 2024 23:43:30 GMT -5 milkbeard said:

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by sending the series switch straight to the output jack. Would that require a different wiring plan for the switch or is it simpler than that?

Well, the best answer is that you're gonna need to rejigger the diagram, and while I think it's simple, you might disagree with me about that!

But first, we need to know how you'd like the volume controls to be wired up.  We can give you a choice of:

a) Master volume control, with the other vol pot acting as a blend for one pickup;

or

b) Each pup still has a vol pot, giving the maximum blend capability

We can go further, but doing so would require additional parts.  Currently the choices use only the parts you've already got on hand.

Your call.


HTH




sumgai

[milkbeard]

Nov 8, 2024 1:21:09 GMT -5 sumgai said:

milkbeard ,

Sorry, I seem to be remiss in welcoming you to the forum, so;

Hi, and to The NutzHouse!

Nov 7, 2024 23:43:30 GMT -5 milkbeard said:

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by sending the series switch straight to the output jack. Would that require a different wiring plan for the switch or is it simpler than that?

Well, the best answer is that you're gonna need to rejigger the diagram, and while I think it's simple, you might disagree with me about that!

But first, we need to know how you'd like the volume controls to be wired up.  We can give you a choice of:

a) Master volume control, with the other vol pot acting as a blend for one pickup;

or

b) Each pup still has a vol pot, giving the maximum blend capability

We can go further, but doing so would require additional parts.  Currently the choices use only the parts you've already got on hand.

Your call.


HTH




sumgai

Thanks, good to be here!!

Scenario B (two volume pots) is what I had in mind

[ashcatlt]

1. Those "bass cut" switches can't possibly work as drawn. Pretty sure you'd have to jumper the center lugs on each.

B. If we're rekerthunkin the V pots, we should also at least consider the T pots. Right now, in series mode, the BT will act as a master while the NT does "broadbucker" things - you actually get more (or at least higher) treble as you turn it down. The option would be to allow the BT to get in on that broadbucker action, too, though then if you actually want less treble overall, you'd have to turn them both down. If you wanted the NT to act like master with the BT doing broadbucker, we'd have to restack the whole thing. There may be a way to make them both act as master in a way similar to how it works in parallel mode, but I'm not sure what that would take. (If I'm honest, I'd probably just leave it as is, but worth considering)

III. Can we please stop quoting entire big long posts? More often than not, you can just Reply and we'll get the gist. Maybe @ a member if you want to respond more directly to them. If you really want to reference a specific point in somebody's post - especially a post that is not the last one before your reply - it's ok to quote, but please edit the resulting text down to basically as little as necessary. Otherwise we end up scrolling through the whole thread multiple times trying to get to the most recent posts and at least for me it can make the whole thing even harder to follow.

[sumgai]

milkbeard,


Are you still with us? I've got some optional diagrams worked up, if you'd like to see them...






sumgai