bpf8hz
Apprentice Shielder
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Post by bpf8hz on Nov 14, 2024 6:15:42 GMT -5
hello world
Here for a quick question today  Assuming there is a HH guitar with a regular 3-way blade switch (think HH Tele) wired up the usual way (neck HB, both HBs parallel, bridge HB) - is it possible to augment the wiring with a single DPDT switch (think push-pull pot) that would engage a "inside (or outside) coils of both HBs in series" position? It doesn't matter if that switch bypasses the 3-way or not. I know there's a regular (full HB, that is) series/parallel switch wiring that could be done both GN-way and layman-way; IIRC one does bypass, the other does not (and it also seems to have "hanging from hot" issues).
Searching for clues has proven fruitless so far, eh. I'm starting to think there are not enough poles for that, though I haven't drawn up and checked anything for myself yet.
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 14, 2024 11:31:55 GMT -5
hello worldHere for a quick question today Assuming there is a HH guitar with a regular 3-way blade switch (think HH Tele) wired up the usual way (neck HB, both HBs parallel, bridge HB) - is it possible to augment the wiring with a single DPDT switch (think push-pull pot) that would engage a "inside (or outside) coils of both HBs in series" position? It doesn't matter if that switch bypasses the 3-way or not. I know there's a regular (full HB, that is) series/parallel switch wiring that could be done both GN-way and layman-way; IIRC one does bypass, the other does not (and it also seems to have "hanging from hot" issues). Searching for clues has proven fruitless so far, eh. I'm starting to think there are not enough poles for that, though I haven't drawn up and checked anything for myself yet.
If you need the switch to override the 3-way, you'll need four poles. However, you CAN use a 2PDT to cross-couple the HBs such that when engaged, one "HB" has the Inner coil from the Bridge in series with the Inner coil from the Neck. And the other "HB" has the Outer coil from the Neck in series with the Outer coil of the Bridge. I'd recommend orienting the pickups such that the "inners" have one North coil and one South coil. (To maintain hum-canceling when inners or outers are selected.) The result could look as follows: | Selector Position | P-P Down | P-P Up | | Neck | Neck HB | Inner coils in series | | Both | Both HBs | Both HBs | | Bridge | Bridge HB | Outer coils in series |
Or you wire it to do this: | Selector Position | P-P Down | P-P Up | | Neck | Neck HB | Outer coils in series | | Both | Both HBs | Both HBs | | Bridge | Bridge HB | Inner coils in series |
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Post by Yogi B on Nov 14, 2024 14:47:07 GMT -5
If you need the switch to override the 3-way, you'll need four poles. poles! In split/series mode this has the neck north coil hanging from the link between bridge north & neck south, which could still add extra noise — but is probably better than hanging directly from hot. That was going to be my other suggestion — "inside (or outside) coils of both HBs in series", why not both? Schematically that looks like the below (swapping norths with souths to switch the order of the inners & outers): Note that, even though all four coils are engaged in both cases, depending on the specifics of your pickups the split/series middle position could still sound quite different that the standard middle position. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 14, 2024 17:18:21 GMT -5
Nice! In split/series mode this has the neck north coil hanging from the link between bridge north & neck south, which could still add extra noise — but is probably better than hanging directly from hot. Having an unused coil hanging from series link would certainly be preferable to hanging from hot. But in either case, it would be a viable option if a 4PDT was unavailable or deemed too expensive or otherwise impractical. If there were shunted coil(s) (don't exist in your circuit) in a HB, I would scream "Don't do it". In any case, I see the cross-coupled option as being preferable because you would have two additional sounds instead of just one.
(cross-coupled) Note that, even though all four coils are engaged in both cases, depending on the specifics of your pickups the split/series middle position could still sound quite different that the standard middle position. I reckon the two pickups would need to be radically different for the sound of the two cross-coupled HBs (in the "both pickups" selection) to be noticeably different than two normally connected HBs in the "both pickups" selection. JMO. YMMV.
*Gilding the Lily* We could add another DPDT to split the two HBs and bypass the cross-coupling switch. That would add three more sounds. |
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bpf8hz
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Post by bpf8hz on Nov 15, 2024 5:40:52 GMT -5
reTrEaD, Yogi B - that's very insightful and just awesome, thanks a lot! It's certainly fascinating to see limited switching possibilities being pushed to their limit, as with the DPDT split-series override schematic. A little bit goes a long way Anyway, I've transcribed the schematic overriding positions 1 & 3 and changed the magnetic polarities as described (wanna keep things consistent with my current wiring setup and all the colour codes there) - do you mind doing a sanity check on this one? I'm really unsure about reorienting humbuckers. Do I get it correctly that, assuming both HBs are currently "properly" aligned and wired the standard way, it's advised to rotate one of them 180° and then re-wire everything per the diagram above with no further modifications? I'm asking because I guess rotating a humbucker makes it - still in-phase with itself (well, nothing's been done to its guts)
- out-of-phase with the other humbucker
due to the fact that the electric polarity (wiring) relative to the other humbucker stayed the same, but the magnetic polarity changed? If the rotated HB indeed goes OOP with the other one - would it mean that leads of the rotated humbucker must be swapped as well at the wiring level? E.g. what was signal becomes ground and vice versa? I don't see such action happening in the schematics posted. Other than that things should be fine with that reorientation thing - lucky me, I've got some WRH replicas from a semi-local pickup maker, and those things are pretty symmetrical with their half-drilled covers  |
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 15, 2024 8:15:31 GMT -5
I'm really unsure about reorienting humbuckers. Do I get it correctly that, assuming both HBs are currently "properly" aligned and wired the standard way, it's advised to rotate one of them 180° and then re-wire everything per the diagram above with no further modifications? Yes. I'm asking because I guess rotating a humbucker makes it - still in-phase with itself (well, nothing's been done to its guts)
- out-of-phase with the other humbucker
due to the fact that the electric polarity (wiring) relative to the other humbucker stayed the same, but the magnetic polarity changed? No. It has nothing to do with phase and everything to do with the position of the selected coils. Typical orientation of HBs (screw coils toward the outside) South (screw) coil
North (slug) coil
North (slug) coil
South (screw) coil Cross-coupled and Neck selected South (screw) coil
North (slug) coil
North (slug) coil
South (screw) coil Cross-coupled and Bridge selected South (screw) coil
North (slug) coil
North (slug) coil
South (screw) coil This is not the position we want for the selected coils.
If we rotate the Neck pickup 180 degrees, we have this arrangement. North (slug) coil
South (screw) coil
North (slug) coil
South (screw) coil Cross-coupled and Neck selected North (slug) coil
South (screw) coil
North (slug) coil
South (screw) coil Cross-coupled and Bridge selected North (slug) coil
South (screw) coil
North (slug) coil
South (screw) coil |
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bpf8hz
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Post by bpf8hz on Nov 15, 2024 8:27:30 GMT -5
No. It has nothing to do with phase and everything to do with the position of the selected coils. I might be wrong, but doesn't the legend of Peter Green's signature parallel out-of-phase sound go like "his technician rotated the pickup while installing it and THIS happened"? Or, well, at least that's what I've heard from internet "gearheads". Am I (those "gearheads"?) mixing something up? |
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 15, 2024 9:32:33 GMT -5
The pickups on Greeny are out of phase with each other but not because the neck pickup is rotated. It's because one of the pickups has it's magnet flipped.
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bpf8hz
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Post by bpf8hz on Nov 15, 2024 9:49:09 GMT -5
Isn't that essentially the same thing? Assuming the poles are spread in "horizontal halves" on the magnet.
Perhaps there's some pinned thread on the matter (that I've missed) here on GN2?
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 15, 2024 11:45:49 GMT -5
Isn't that essentially the same thing? No. When you rotate the pickup, the relationship between the magnet polarity and the coils remains the same. When you flip the magnet, the relationship between the magnet polarity and the coils changes. Normally, the North edge of the magnet is in contact with the Slug polepieces and the South edge is in contact with the Screw polepieces. Both coils are wound in the same direction but the positive-going signal (when the string moves closer to the polepieces) is on the Start for the Slug coil and on the Finish for the Screw coil. When you flip the magnet, the South edge of the magnet is in contact with the Slug polepieces and the North edge is in contact with the Screw polepieces. Now, the positive-going signal is on the Finish for the Slug coil and on the Start for the Screw coil. Perhaps there's some pinned thread on the matter (that I've missed) here on GN2? |
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