Distractions from Customization: Guitar Stands

[Runewalker]

I decided I was tired of propping up ongoing projects on my sofas like gals waiting in line to provide personal services, so I decide I needed some multiple guitar stands.

Found some 5 guitar units $80 -$120, but they looked cheap and flimsy. Fender has a cool one that looks like one of their Strat cases that opens up to hold 7 guitars (I think) but it was $275 or more.

So I decided I would just build one. Sure no problem, right? Ha!

Some homes around me are having their roofs scraped off and stories added, so I had some free 50 year seasoned old growth fir for the rescuing.

How hard could it be, right? Drew up the plans, secured the lumber .... Then..... went nuts.

Somewhere I got the disease of trying to go arty. And this silly project done to save money has cost way too much time. Conditioning used lumber, carving and sculpting because I decided to go 'arty'. Gluing, doweling, clamping, rough and fine sanding, pre-staining, staining to get that Gibby mahagony look, coat after coat of tung oil, sanding between coats. I am insane.

The bumpers on the wood are temporary as I have not decided yet how to protect the guitars from the hard edges of the wood standards 'artfully.' Yes there are visible imperfections, and at this point I say 'screw it." I have decide the real art here is knowing when to stop, the art of "good enough."

So here it is and some more pix as links. I hope this is out of my system:

photobucket.com/albums/c236/runewalker/?action=view¤t=90f271cb.jpg

photobucket.com/albums/c236/runewalker/?action=view¤t=006-Frontviewleft.jpg

[jdl]

Nice work man;

Wanna build me one?(J/K) I like the gibson headstocks!!!!! What is the guitar at the very back left in the first pic?

James

[Runewalker]

Wanna build me one?

Once was enough. I am still kicking myself for even starting the thing.

like the gibson headstocks!!!!!

Yeah that was the silly arty part. After I carved & glued 'em up I then wished I had made one with Jackson headstocks. I started on some Strat headstocks then abandoned them because I could not make it looked right with the rest of the unit.

What is the guitar at the very back left in the first pic?

It is a replica of a PRS style by a company called Winter that I try to snatch up their seconds. One of the links shows the back. HH. They modify the PRS style a bit by leaving the bottom horn as long as the top horn. I did not like it at first but it has grown on me, and since Texas is National Champs in football my affection has increased and I call it "Longhorn." Or maybe Bevo.

This will get a slightly modified mod of JH's cort style. My have to sacrifice a pot, but we'll see on the layout.

It has EMG selects with the plastic still on. I seem unmoved by them so will probably sell them soon on EBay.

Here's another view of that one:

[jdl]

so how do you go about getting factory seconds on guitars?

james

[Runewalker]

Steady and consistent Ebay search. Many are saved searches with specific mfg or terms.

Eventually a purveyor surfaces where selling parts and seconds is their primary business.

Winter guitars has a store but seems recently to be listing fewer seconds and more parts. DragonMountain has been buying pallets of seconds from Cort, Samick and others for years, breaking out the parts like a chop shop and selling them piece by piece.

Dennis over at MusicLandCentral occasionally sells seconds, but his deal is to sell loss leaders at auctions to get traffic for the buy it now stuff. You can occasionally get a deal there.

Warpdrive is a pallet buyer especially from Samick and You can get cheap necks and oddball bods there, occasionally.

I don't want to give all my secrets out, but should so I will stop and just build up what I have, then start winnowing the herd.

There are other parts and seconds sellers, you just have to be patient, spend an hour or 2 a week with consistent research, don't fall in love with any one piece, know price points, set your limits and stick to it.

I had not planned to buy that PRS, but stuck a ridiculous bid on it and won the thing. I have enough projects, but ..... now I have another. It needs a little fret dressing, but I have others from the seller that were great out of the box.

Be aware the market is variable. I have seen people buy Jay's pickups in auction for higher than the buy-ti-now price. I have seen his pups when he used to auction them go for $9. That is why he stopped his no reserve auctions, and why you must know price ranges, set your limit and never fall in love such that you panic and bid up over the preset. If you are in this for the long haul there will always, always be another deal.

My approach to fashioning guitars is somewhat different than many guitar aficionados. These are the principals (should you care):

Warning!! Dangerous Curves and Overblown Opinions Ahead. Watch for Wildlife Crossing.

• CNC has not ruined the soul of guitar making, --- rather it has brought precision and repeatability to the production of time-tested designs, yielding a wealth of workable chassis's upon which the the customizer preys and harvests.
  
  Cheap guitars are infinitely better than when I started to play. Cheap then meant unplayable. I have turned todays cheapies (< $100) into remarkable instruments. I look for inexpensive chassis's --- made in China, Indonesia, Korea? ---- Great! Then upgrade first the electronics (pups and wiring) then the coupling (nut, bridge, tuners if needed). I frequently even keep the cheap vintage style straty bridge but freeze it to improve the coupling.
  
  
• Bolt on builds are more facilitative of the objectives of the customizer. Where I was a devotee of the set neck and still have a nostalgic sentiment toward it, the logic and benefits of component built guitars better support the customizer's art. A bolt on can achieve effective sustain, solidity and precision, and a set neck is vulnerable to neck angle fatigue --- only fixed with expensive repairs. Neck angle issue are easily adjusted in a bolt on.
  
  
• Pickgaurd electronic customizations are easier to work on and electronic components cheaper. IF you keep this up you will sink some $ in parts, especially if you have to go exotic --- concentric pots, Fender S1 switches, etc.
  
  Back routed chassis's inarguably provide more appealing esthetic's (albeit they give up the aural pixie dust of "toneplastic"). But inexpensive parts, like those in volume from Mouser, frequently have 1/4" to 3/8" bushings ---- which present a higher risk of weakening or even routing through the face of a backrouted chassis to accommodate the shorter bushing. Also, wiring in the back cavity is a B|tch and I have to build cavity mock-ups to work outside the hole. Another pain, which none-the-less I sometimes take on for the aesthetics. Also, back routs have wire tunnels for the pickup wires. These can get balky with thicker 4 lead cables. It takes specialized drills to enlarge those tunnels.
  
  
• Keep your build budget below $200. I try to keep the chassis below $100 to give me a little extra space for better pickups. See next 2 bullets for why the total budget objective.
  
  Understand also that there are risks in this pursuit. We do it to obtain value, and can't afford or won't spend the $3500-5000 for a new Gibby or PRS. The risks are that you will get something that is not fixable, or beyond your capabilities, which means an offsetting cost at a real luthier. Every now an then you also run accross unscrupulous sellers, misreprenting or even committing fraud. That is also why I don't like to commit a lot of cash. Risk only what you can afford to toss.
  
  
• Paying $10,000 for a guitar and putting it in a glass case never to be paid is just wrong. I was in Las Vegas for a business trip. (Yes, business!). After the seminar ended for the day I burned up some time and went into the Mall joined with the Hotel. I saw some guitars in a shop down the way, so naturally sauntered over. Lots of guitars in glass cases with notables or near notables' signatures on really cheap @ss guitars --- Tokai for example. The shop manager was chatty and told me this story about how she was with a customer and heard some guitar playing in the background, rushed over and took the guitar from the guy plucking it, admonishing him, "Sir, these are valuable, collectible guitars ---- you don't play these!"
  
  Ok, they were not valuable, and some sharpie sigs of the Backstreet boys don't increase their value. The suckers needed to be disassembled, customized and Played!. Therefore:
  
  
• Build Players not Posers. The beauty of factory seconds are they are already blemished (mostly barely). If I play it, its gonna get banged around. That part of the point of loosing yourself to music, to the current of being. So build it so it plays unbelievably, sounds like it is spiked with heaven, and ride the b\tch. I have ancient guitars that are worth now 6000% more than I paid, and I am afraid to play them. Again. That's just wrong.
  
  Build 'em cheap and great and play them with abandon. If something happens, I admit, you lose the mojo of what you put in her ---- but get over it and build another that is better.
  
  
• Beliefs guide and frequently determine experience. Don't fall sway to the many myths out there on what makes great tone. Wood, routing, set neck, Name brand, this that the other. Its an electric guitar --- meaning that probably 60-80% of your guitar's tone (ignoring the amp's contribution, which is huge to the total aural gestalt are the electronics, the electronic options and the pickups. Wood, finish type, bridge, resonance, anti-resonance, etc. all contribute to tonal variants, of course, but relatively less significantly than the electronics. Sorry, Tonewood freaks. Let me repeat: Its an Electric Guitar. Which reinforces the idea of putting significant skill, thought, execution and resources into the pups, pots, switches and wiring.
  
  Many of course will argue and I don't wanna start up the catapults, but much that goes as Gospel is untested and unconfirmed ... but is strongly believed. I am confident that if an empirical study was performed where one group plopped down $300 for Lace Sensors, and another did the same but received $50 GFS, that both would believe passionately that the Savior of Tone had arisen. As in life, if you passionately believe in the Virgin Mariah and burn enough toast, eventually you will see her image. Belief guides experience, frequently determines, so be very careful what you believe.
  
  So much of the preference of tone is subjective. Learn to listen to yourself. Believe yourself not pundits, prophets or me. Buy a good chassis, get a bead on your pickup preferences, wire up your custom and wail.
  
  
• Don't expect anyone you know or love to give a wits @ss about your obsession. Do ya blame 'em? People will go glassy-eyed on you the minute you say Series or Parallel, albeit it may be an effect hypnotic technique. If you need to talk about your little disease, that is what GN2 is for.
  To date there are no 12 step programs for G.A.S or guitar wiring OCD, nor any medications.
  

I'm having such fun I may add to this later. Self indulgent like one of my 10 minute solos to a backing track.

My apologies to anyone who made it this far. I am forum-ing!

[jdl]

Hey rune;

Although long that was a good read! I'm assuming that those stores you mentioned above are all ebay stores right?

James

[Runewalker]

Although long ...

Yeah I know, thats why I appologized.

I'm assuming that those stores you mentioned above are all ebay stores right?

Yes.

[jdl]

cool man, thanks for the tips!!

james

[lunaalta]

like gals waiting in line to provide personal services,

Lol, how do you know what they look like......

and at this point I say 'screw it

There ya go again, is this the sign of a misspent youth

I am insane

I am not the argumentative kind (well, maybe sometimes : But, I would argue with you after about that statement, after reading your principles, above.
Excellent words!

Now, can we get back to the babes

Ermmmm, that awful gibbo at the front of the rack, you wouldn't consider tossing it my way would you? Just thought I'd relieve you of the dross and leave you a little more room on the (excellent) guitar stand

Nice work.......

[vroom]

runewalker said:

Don't fall sway to the many myths out there on what makes great tone. Wood, routing, set neck, Name brand, this that the other. Its an electric guitar.

Well said. That was always what had me scratching my head.

[Runewalker]

lunaalta: Now, can we get back to the babes?

One of these days I am going to take 2-3 of these, swathe them in Victoria’s Secret frillies, and drape them all over me for some pix. Only action I am likely to get, given my hobbies of rehabbing, customizing guitars and playing them loudly and obnoxiously.

Ermmmm, that awful gibbo at the front of the rack, you wouldn't consider tossing it my way would you?

Errrrr…… No.

Hx. 1952 ES-175 D. The D stands for double pickup, not something to fill out the lingerie you can’t stop thinking of. First year Gibby introduced the 2 pickup model and the 175 became the defacto guitar standard for 50=60s jazz. Howard Roberts (till he got his own signature model – a double cutaway 175), Joe Pass, Kenny Burrell (the Man!) Wes Montgomery (the other Man!) and many more.

I bought the 175 to replace the Harmony 3 pup 330 clone (not 335) that burned in a house fire. The guy selling it inherited from his deceased dad who he said was one of those faceless Nashville studio musicians in the 50-60s. I passed on the Gibson tweed tube combo amp he had because it would have added $30 more dollars to the purchase ….ARRRRGGGGGGHHHHH.

I don’t play it much because it is worth more than a late model used car (ok it depends on the car). Which actually goes back to my principals above. Collectors have ruined the guitar market for us players. It is a shame to not play this baby. It has become financially risky to do so. D@mn.

Don’t tell Unk about it because he will accuse me of going soft …. Errr… wussing out by having a hollow body. He will vaingloriously preen and claim, “ah ha you do have an acoustic. Check out the P-90s Unk ---Electric Guitar.”

guitar stand …..Nice work.......

Thanks.... Doubt I will do that again. It was sort of a fool’s quest, but I had the prerequisites (of being a fool).

RW

[Runewalker]

Veoom:

Thanks for laboring through the novel. Most will see the length and pass. Who could blame them?

When I was a kid Mattel came out with this battery powered amp with prerecord motorcycle sounds that kids mounted on the handlebars of their bikes. I just used playing cards and clothes pins to make them flap against the spokes.

The toy was a Vrrrrrrrooooommmmmm. Is that your name’s hx?

[vroom]

runewalker said:

I just used playing cards and clothes pins to make them flap against the spokes.

Been there, done that.

runewalker said:

The toy was a Vrrrrrrrooooommmmmm. Is that your name’s hx?

Actually, Vroom was a group that had a small but faithful following, up until they split up in 2003. It was kind of like a local band relationship, except they were across the country from me.

[RandomHero]

[glow=red,2,300]WARNING! WARNING!!![/glow]

Are those plastic hooks covered in VINYL?

Are any of those necks finished in NITRO!?

VINYL EATS NITRO!

[Runewalker]

Yeah covering the hooks is the next step. I was aware of the nitro/vinyl issue and am seeking an alternative. I was about to use rubber hose, or even surgical rubber then heard about issues with those materials.

What are you aware of that is safe yet protective?

The nitros are going back to their cases... just brought them out for the pix.



RW

[wolf]

Rune,
GREAT work on the guitar stands.

As far as your guitar philosophy I totally agree with all you posted. Like you, I would never pay an extra cent for a guitar if any of that extra money was paying for its "collectibility". My attitude is "Wanna play the guitar that Jimi Hendrix used? Buy a Stratocaster™." End of story.

I'd add just one belief from my own guitar philosophy. Toggles are always preferable to those 24 lug Super Switch monstrosities.

[JohnH]

RW - Nice work on the stands - and some sensible advice plus valuable secrets shared. a +1 increment of general holiness to you.

John

[RandomHero]

Most manufacturers use some type of foam rubber in their stands. You could get really creative and cover the hooks in cloth.

[UnklMickey]

runewalker said:

...Don’t tell Unk about it because he will accuse me of going soft …. Errr… wussing out by having a hollow body. He will vaingloriously preen and claim, “ah ha you do have an acoustic. Check out the P-90s Unk ---Electric Guitar.”...

hey RW, that business of acousics are for wussies is your words, not mine. i like 'em all. i think you need to add a C.F.Martin to the fleet. or at least a Takamine, Ovation, or Yamaha.


i was wondering, is it Kosher to have Fenders on a rack with Gibson headstocks on the "bookends"?


BTW, i noticed "snowflake" er, i mean "longhorn" is symmetrical. i'm getting more interested. do they have any with a maple neck/fingerboard?



maybe you can implement RH's idea by having Granny knit some booties for the hooks.

wonder what that closed-cell foam they use for covering pipes is made out of? looks like you're already using larger versions of that as bump-guards. is that stuff compatible with nitro? if so, you could use the small stuff on the hooks.

from the use of carpet, i'd guess you don't have cats around the house.




unk

[Runewalker]

hey RW, that business of acoustics are for wussies is your words, not mine. i like 'em all. i think you need to add a C.F.Martin to the fleet. or at least a Takamine, Ovation, or Yamaha.

Yeah, actually I would love an acoustic, and the rack design was dimensioned to hold one acoustic per rack. So someday.

Although it is a little fun to posture and channel my more intolerant alter ego - Tex Hornet and loudly spit and cuss those "girlie guitars". Hard to convincingly bang out a power chord on an acoustic.

I've gotten close a couple of times. Problem is that when you play electric and finally learn to dial them in, getting an acoustic to play as well typically means big bucks, then the cheap acoustics sound a little dead and lifeless against my reference tone of a Gibby J200 Jumbo or a big box Guild, full sonorous and ringing. Also, big bucks. So once I cross that threshold I am back to "man, I could build 3 or 4 quality electrics." And I am off again.

Really all these prototypes and projects have yielded too many guitars, and the ones you see don't include the ones in process. The next stage is to finish builds, assess them for the keeper or sell pile, sell some and try to recoup some of the expenses of this hobby. I built the stands with 8 slots with the hope that would be my upper limit of keepers. We'll see.

I have sold several but I am still too attached. It feels like selling a child. And with two teenagers you would think that idea would be attractive to me.

i was wondering, is it Kosher to have Fenders on a rack with Gibson head-stocks on the "bookends"?

No, and that is part of the fun of it. First designs actually used Strat head-stocks, but I could not get happy with the scale. I nearly put Strat head-stocks on the feet, but decided that just was getting silly. No way was I going to even consider a Tele headstock. i don't know what Leo was thinking. I do wish though that I had made one with those RWS Jackson head-stocks. That would fire up the Gibby and Fender crowds.

Since I was going to stain it I just stuck with a more traditional, venerable look. And while I will probably never actually buy a Gibby again, I have sentimental attachment to them from my formative years.

BTW, i noticed "snowflake" er, i mean "longhorn" is symmetrical. I'm getting more interested. do they have any with a maple neck/fingerboard?

You know, this company (Winter) kinda appeared out of nowhere around November and for a while sold seconds exclusively. The 2 I bought I paid about $85 for. They were below the radar so were not getting much traffic. Roland used to sell them with no reserve, then got tired of giving them away and started putting them on reserve pricing, which from what I could tell tended to be about $100 less than their retail price. They had a black beauty I had a serious Jones for, but I was apparently not the only one, and it was bid up past my $ principles.

The blue flame, back routed strat style I got was really superb. The pups were really pretty well voiced, but not enough for me to cling to.

The longhorn I have is, yes symmetrical, and I was waiting for you to notice. Good catch. But it comes in both the stop-tailpiece style and a tuno with string through-the-body ferules. It has a beefier neck, kinda 50's Les Paul, which I like. When I dial in the fret leveling this one needs, and convert the wiring scheme it will be a monster I've seen him sell it in a blue flamed and green flamed and amber flamed.

Recently however, I have seen fewer seconds and more parts. He is either parting out the component guitar seconds or maybe he getting more for the parts than the whole guitar. I have not seen any set necks or whole guitars in a few weeks. When they surface it is in a flurry. I also think he had a few in inventory that failed inspection, but he has worked through that inventory.

maybe you can implement RH's idea by having Granny knit some booties for the hooks. wonder what that closed-cell foam they use for covering pipes is made out of? looks like you're already using larger versions of that as bump-guards. is that stuff compatible with nitro? if so, you could use the small stuff on the hooks.

I actually am looking for some solutions. I took lacquer and sprayed it on the bumpers to assess melting. Nada. Guitars don't really touch that so I am not worried even if there is a problem, they are really to prevent knocking guitars into each other.

But a tiny knit sock would be great.

This issue that Random brings up about incompatible volatile compounds in plastic and nitro is serious. I researched it before building, because I was going to use surgical rubber. And there are anecdotal reports about it sticking to finishes. One guy used that type of water hose for connect dishwashers that has a woven mesh encased in a clear tube, and says that worked great, but samples of one don't make great science.

I am about decided to obtain some leather saddle lace and wrap and glue it to the metal hooks.

Any other ideas out there?, preferably ones that have been tested.


from the use of carpet, I'd guess you don't have cats around the house.

Yes, actually I am violently allergic to cats -- they shut down my lungs, which turns out to be a bad thing.

Let me have my alter-ego Tex Hornet address that:

"Cats and acoustic guitars are for girlie boys>'

Er..... thank you Tex.

Thanks to all who labored through this near blog like thread.

[Runewalker]

Wolf, Thanks for your kind words.

I too am personally partial to toggles, they are sort of binary, on-off (except when they are not - on/on/on, one/both/the other, etc.)

However, I can't deny that there are an army of guitarists out there who are attached to the 5-way lever. I wish there were a 7 way lever, as that would get all 7 of the 3 pup configs, and not be as broad a leap for a conventionally conditioned guitarist to adjust to, oppose to the giant leap moving from lever to toggles is for most guitarists. Easily done for the folks on this board, but we also understand what happens in the switches.

Have you ever mentioned the words Series and Parallel to a guitarist who knows nothing about what is happening in the cavity? Instant glassy eye.

I still think the optimum design with a 5-way, all of the conventional strat combos, plus the best of the lost combos is still to be developed. Or perhaps I have just not run accross it yet. Richardson's gets close, but sacrifices the mid pup alone. Many say that is no loss. Not all share that opinion.

This is not just to attend to the unsaved bretheren out there, but I have a fondness for the backrouted strats and these have the hard slots in them for the 5-way. I could put toggles then a little cover to hide the slots betweent the toggles but that is an esthetic compromize. So it would be nice to achieve the objectives above and retain the esthetics.

Of course after the first nick from my 5 ft. verticle leaps, Townsend windmills, and stage dives into the mosh pit, I won't be so concerned about the esthetics.

[UnklMickey]

runewalker said:

..Let me have my alter-ego Tex Hornet address that:

"Cats and acoustic guitars are for girlie boys>'

Er..... thank you Tex....

haven't heard Tex.

sounds like maybe a "kinder, gentler" version of Hog Whitman.

"...she put the c*** back in country..." (haven't actually heard that first-hand either.)