Gibson L6-S pickup wiring

[liamjaego]

Hi there,

I bought a 1974/75 Gibson L6-S off some bloke in our shop recently but someone had been messing with it. It didn't have the original pickups in and i suspected the wiring was dodgy. I bought some duncan antiquity's to put in it and asked our tech to do it. He came back saying that he can't actually wire up the 6 way rotary switch properly till he either gets hold of another L6-S to look in it or a proper detailed drawing or photos of how the wiring is supposed to be. If anyone can provide me with this that would be brilliant.

He looked at the diagram that is readily available on the web but said he needs more to be sure. If anyone can help....great!

Cheers

[sumgai]

liam,

Hi, and welcome to the GuitarNutz2 forums!

Several websites carry the same schematic, and it's the only one I can find. Here's a link to the first one the Google turned up, found at Flat Earth Guitars: L6-S Schematic. Might you be able to give us a link to the schematic your technician found? If it's any different, that is.

That thing looks complete to me, I think it would be sufficient for someone to be able to do a proper wiring job. But if your guy saw something different........

BTW, nice find!



sumgai

[ChrisK]

www.theguitarweb.com/gibson_l6s.htm

The guy that designed it:

www.billlawrence.com/

His words about it:

When I began working for Gibson in Kalamazoo, there was a certain hostility towards Fender -- the general opinion at Gibson was that a Fender guitar was nothing but a board with a screwed-on neck, but Gibson's were "real" guitars. Sure, Gibson had a long history of making fine acoustic instruments, but when it came to solid-bodies, they had nothing to compete with a Tele, a Strat, a P-Bass, or a Jazz Bass.
Back in the '50s, the big band era had come to an end, and smaller groups were emerging all across the country. While in a big band the guitar had a fixed position in the rhythm section and played only a minor role in the orchestra, the electric guitar became the dominant instrument in the smaller groups, and Fender became the leading maker of a new instrument, "The Electric Solid-Body." Throughout my playing years, I used all kinds of different archtops, but when it came to solid-bodies, I played Fenders, and I've used Fender amps exclusively since '58.
As a player, I like a well-balanced, not-too-heavy guitar that feels comfortable and offers me a variety of clean rich sounds with brilliant highs, and therefore I could not agree with the general opinion at Gibson about Fender. As a designer, I know how complicated it is to combine a functional design with an aesthetic appearance. I don't know if Leo or a team effort was responsible for the final design of Fender's unprecedented masterpieces, but I do know that whoever designed these instruments had extensive knowledge and experience in fundamental design.

Gibson needed a mainstream guitar that could compete with Fender.
In 1972, I was asked to design a multi-sound system for the SG Standard. This didn't make any sense to me, and after several meetings with marketing, I convinced them to introduce a completely new solid-body that offered a wide variety of different sounds. I was given a free hand as long as I observed a set production cost limit. In order to stay within that limit, I had to make use of their existing hardware, including pickup covers, and the chamfered body contours I wanted were not in the budget either. Given a mere $25 more to work with, I could have made the guitar to my specs. Also, I had designed a beautiful three post lightweight bridge made of hardened stainless steel that could be converted into a trem and a two 3 position toggle switches for nine different sounds. The first 3 position switch was a pickup selector while the second was a sound selector -- position one was for Les Paul , position two for Strat, and position three for Tele sound.

Well, I had to stay within the budget, and we ended up with a six-position rotary switch, pickups with large humbucker covers, a stock Schaller bridge with a "stop" tailpiece, and a clumsy-looking body. My original prototype had a beautiful, elegantly-shaped pickguard, but somebody changed that too. Even with these changes, the early production L6-S was still an excellent performer. When the new ownership took over, there were even more changes, and by 1976, the L6-S had become just another Les Paul-style Gibson solid-body. All that remained of my original design was the thin, lightweight body with its large cutaway for easy access to all 24 frets.

And a history of it from Gibson.

www.gibson.com/allaccessfeatures.aspx?aliaspath=/AllAccess/Know%20Your%20Gibson_%20The%20L-6S

www.vintageguitar.com/brands/details.asp?ID=52




A couple of schematics:

[liamjaego]

Thanks guys thats really helpful.

I don't know if thats the schematic he found or not....

May have to consult another techie even tho he's a great guy. Thing is he said he could do it but he is also the tech for Radiohead so he's always mega busy, thats the problem coz he took ages just to tell me this since he's been so busy.

Thanks tho its really great to get a quick reply!

[ChrisK]

The only remaining question is the inductor specs (if it has "left the body" and "gone to be with Jesus").

If unknown, go to Bill's web site and send him an email asking thereof. If he tells you, post here and let us know, please.

Why don't you rewire it? That's what this site is for!!!!

If you bought Duncan Antiquities and they're single shielded conductor wiring (not three or four wire) you will have "issues" with the L6S wiring, specifically for the two out of phase positions.

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

chrisk said:

The only remaining question is the inductor specs.
If unknown, go to Bill's web site and send him an email asking thereof. If he tells you, post here and let us know, please.

I went looking for that info awhile back, and I think it was 900 mH. I'll look it up to make sure. Found the same (or almost the same) figure from two different sources, but I think one of them was where BL had written it in on a drawing he did.

I had tried emailing and calling Bill with a question or two, but never heard back from anyone. I was hoping to put L-6S-type switching in my LP copy when I rebuilt it, and was also looking to buy one of their Q-Filters.
That project is now so far back onto the back burner, I'll need barbecue tongs to get at it.

[sumgai]

Doug,

ministratmaine said:

chrisk said:

The only remaining question is the inductor specs.
If unknown, go to Bill's web site and send him an email asking thereof. If he tells you, post here and let us know, please.

I went looking for that info awhile back, and I think it was 900 mH. I'll look it up to make sure. Found the same (or almost the same) figure from two different sources, but I think one of them was where BL had written it in on a drawing he did.

Well, lessee here........ 900mH in series with 0.01µf...... throw out all the round roots, gotta use a square one....... toss 2 pies into the mix....... turn the whole thing upside down........

Chris, you wanna check me on this..... I'm getting 1677.64Hz, which will cut into the frequency band right about "G", somewhere close the 28th fret of the first string.



At this point, I've gotta suspect that you've mis-remembered that value. I'm sure you'll dig it up one way or the other, RSN.

Me, I'd kick that cap's value up to 1µf, leaving your coil at 0.9Henries. That'll bring the beauty point down to 167Hz, somewhere just sharp of E (4^th string, 2^nd fret). I feel that's a good place to start experimenting! ;D

HTH


sumgai

[liamjaego]

Ok so if I am going to have issues with the Antiquities does anybody have any ideas for another pickup that I would be able to fit?

Thanks

[sumgai]

Wait a sec here.....

liam, how many wires are coming out of your Antiquity pickups?

Duncan's site refuses to be cooperative, and give either a picture, a wiring diagram, nor a schematic of any Antiquity pickup. I find that just a touch strange, but YMMV.

If you have only two wires, you may be OK. The deal is, neither of them must be connected in any way to the pickup's framework nor the surrounding pickup cover. If one of them is doing so, then it's a permanent ground, and no phase reversal wiring can take place. At least, not without a lot of buzzing noise - you've just made the "Hot" ground, and the "Ground" hot..... not a good thing.

If you have more than two wires coming out of that Antiquity, then we should be able to get you squared away. Let us know what's what, mosh-kosh.


sumgai

[ChrisK]

1677.64Hz

Yep.

how many wires are coming out of your Antiquity pickups?

'Aven't a clue. I suspect that they're "vintage" in their wiring which infers a single shielded conductor.

I'll look about on the Duncan user's board.


One can play around with cap values with the inductor and achieve different resonance points, but using a common inductor will set the general inductive reactance and loading. I have a reference inductor of 1 H and it's too much of a load.



Just when we think that we're special in our wiring "inventions".

I'd found this on the BillLawrence board (methinks).

[liamjaego]

Yup I would say that sounds about right, the guitar is closed up at the moment but i'm certain that its just one shielded conductor. I'm sorry I still don't know what most of this means. I play more than I fiddle with guitars so I don't get much time to experiment but is there some way that the pickups will be able to be wired up or will I kinda be fighting a losing battle?

Cheers guys I appreciate this

[sumgai]

liam,

A single conductor that is shielded will mean a no-go for your intended scheme. While it is electrically possible to do everything you want, it will sound terrible, noise-wise. The reason is that all those surfaces that are exposed above the shielded cavity, and that are normally grounded (for additional shielding effect), they are now leading directly to the "Hot" lead of the output - exactly where we don't want them!

If your heart is set on expanding your tonal pallette, you'll need to consider your wallet as you shop the innerweb. FWIW, several members here are happy with Guitar Fetish, and their products.

Don't worry about any of this being "over your head", you'll catch on soon enough. It's sort of like learning to swim - we throw you in, and you wake up one morning understanding "taper", "3PDT", "RWRP", and "series-parallel in half-phase" even better than you can understand your kids! It's all a matter of time, trust me. ;D

HTH


sumgai

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

I have a slightly different 1973 diagram than what SG posted. Awhile back, I saw at least one 'Net discussion about what that "70-062" coil is, but of course I can't find the info now. I have inquiries out.

As I understand it, the setup in an L6-S is basically a Bill lawrence Q-Filter. From Guitar Electronics For Musicians: "The Tone-Q-Filter is a fully shielded humbucking inductance coil tuned with a fixed capacitor . . . The T-Q-F replaces the capacitor at the tone control . . . While the capacitor cuts off the highs and makes your tone muddy, the T-Q-F gives you that sweet and mellow tone."
I know that doesn't do doodley for what the value of it is, but it's all I've got at the moment.

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

Info I got from someone at the Bill Lawrence/Wildegate Forum:
"Bill estimates the inductor measured between 1.4 and 1.5 henry -- suprisingly, he also told me that Gibson didn't even own an LCR meter back in '73, so he can't give you a more precise figure. Btw, he says the current Q-Filter is a suitable replacement electrically, if not cosmetically."

The BL site seems to be in the process of being updated, so I can't post a link for the Q-Filter.
Hope this helps.

[johnnyred]

Wow this is scary... I have had an l6S custom for years.. I got as part of a package with another guitar I wanted... I have never really played it much as I am more of a Fender person.

Not all positions on the 6 way selector switch work... so I thought it would be routine to open it up and find a stray wire or something (you know how you peer at the engine of your car expecting to see something really obvious?).

Anyway... everything seems to be solidly connected... but I am not techie enough to make any sense of the wiring diagram or relate it to what I see in the guitar...

My question is.. is there anything obvious I can try before I take it off to a professional to sort.....?

WHilst I am at it... in taking it apart I took the bridge off... and I am dammed if I know which way it goes back on... Do the slopy bits on the string saddles go the side of the tailpiece or do they go the side of the pickups? Duh?

John

[dd842]

johnnyred said:

..... Not all positions on the 6 way selector switch work
.....

..... everything seems to be solidly connected .....

.....

..... is there anything obvious I can try before I take it off to a professional to sort.....?

John

Hi John, and welcome to GN2!

What do you mean by not all positions on your L6S custom work - no output at all in some positions? Did the selections all work when you got the guitar?

If that is the case, then you may have a loose wire (even though you can't see it) ... but seeing as it's been sitting around for so long, I don't see how a wire would just come loose on it's own ... anything is possible, but it could also be at least a few other things, including:

- a malfunctioning selector switch - some selections truly don't work,

- a "cruddy" selector switch - it actually works, but appears not to as gunk of one type or another is in there and it needs to be cleaned out ... or hopefully loosened by toggling back and forth.

- it could be that one of the pickups is dead - unless you've ruled that out somehow.

You could test if they work by bringing a screwdriver slowly into contact with the pickup's magnets, if you hear a loud click from the amp, you are okay. If you have good pull on all pickups but no click from the amp, that is a further clue.

Try those for starters and let us know what happens.

Good luck,
Dan

P.S. By the way, you asked about the bridge as well, but I wasn't sure what you meant by slopy bits of the bridge:

EDIT: From here on in, this will only make sense to you if replace the word "bridge" with "tailpiece" - sorry about that. Dan

If the bridge is held on by two posts, then the bridge gets pulled against the posts by the strings.

If you are talking about the do-hickey that I see between the pickups and the bridge on some pictures of the L6-S, I believe the side with the screws should face the bridge, not the pickups.

If the bridge is different than described above, for example it has individual adjustable seats for each string, then it would normally be placed with those seats nearest the pickups, so that the strings are pulling them toward the pickups and the screws on the end would face away from the pickups.

If it isn't any of the previously mentioned, maybe you can show us?

[JohnH]

A blast of sprayed contact cleaner on the switch, then working it back and forth a few times may de-crud it, if thats the problem.

John

[sumgai]

Dan,

.........
By the way, you asked about the bridge as well, but I wasn't sure what you meant by slopy bits of the bridge:

That's the part that "slopes" from the top downward - the saddle flares out from a thin top to a wider bottom, with all of the slope on one side.

If you are talking about the do-hickey that I see between the pickups and the bridge on some pictures of the L6-S, I believe the side with the screws should face the bridge, not the pickups.

Uhhhhh, we're already talking about the bridge itself - how could the screws on the bridge point towards the bridge?

You're thinking of a Tune-O-Matic bridge (aka TOM or ToM), which requires a stop tailpiece. In such cases, yes, the screws point towards the tailpiece, not the pickups.

HTH



sumgai

[dd842]

sumgai said:

Dan,

.........
By the way, you asked about the bridge as well, but I wasn't sure what you meant by slopy bits of the bridge:

That's the part that "slopes" from the top downward - the saddle flares out from a thin top to a wider bottom, with all of the slope on one side.

If you are talking about the do-hickey that I see between the pickups and the bridge on some pictures of the L6-S, I believe the side with the screws should face the bridge, not the pickups.

Uhhhhh, we're already talking about the bridge itself - how could the screws on the bridge point towards the bridge?

You're thinking of a Tune-O-Matic bridge (aka TOM or ToM), which requires a stop tailpiece. In such cases, yes, the screws point towards the tailpiece, not the pickups.

HTH



sumgai

Thanks, sumgai.

I am not terribly familiar with the L6-S and was originally just going to offer some ideas on the selector problem.

Then I started looking for pictures of the bridge of the L6-S, and found that on most of the pictures I found of older (70's and 80's?) L6-S, it appeared as though they had a bridge, plus another seperate piece between the bridge and the pickups (sort of like an old Gibson ES-175 that I saw) but the piece had what looked like individually adjustable seats that the strings sat on.

Could be I have my misused my terminology - I believe the bridge to be the part that the strings are attached to, and I don't have a name for the part between what I am calling the bridge and the pickups ... is that actually the bridge in such instances?

Dan

[sumgai]

Dan,

The bridge is officially designated as that place on the guitar at which the string's vibrations are ended. In fact, on all guitars, the actual contact point is called the saddle. In a great number of electric guitars, the saddles have been broken out to one per string, to facilitate intonation.

The tailpiece is that device with secures the strings to the guitar, without regard to tuning or intonation. On most solid body electric guitars, the strings are mounted either to the backside of the bridge, through the body (to metal ferrules), through some form of vibrato tailpiece, or in the case of many Gibsons, to a stop tailpiece. It's called "stop" because it doesn't go all the way to the end of the guitar, and bend over the side, like you see on many of the more expensive jazz guitars such as the Byrdland, the Super 400, or the L5. Note that those models are archtops, and it should be obvious that a stop tailpiece would not be appropriate for such a design.

On some electric guitars, notably older Gibsons, the bridge and the stop tailpiece were the same unit. Later versions of that piece of metal had small ridges on the top side, and they were offset about like you would set your individual saddles in order to get good intonation. The early ones had only a straight line, and tuning was a compromise at best (and a pain in the tush for most of the time).

Gibson later replaced that design with the Tune-O-Matic, their way of allowing individual intonation. ToM bridges can be used with any kind of tailpiece, including a vibrato. They sit on posts, and can pivot fore and aft on said posts. However, not all ToM bridges are created equal, some of them have tighter tolerances, and probably won't work in a vibrato scenario. Checking for compatibility is mandatory, lest one get the wrong part for the job at hand.

To the best of my limited knowledge, johnnyred has a ToM on his L6-S, which I think I've described in too much detail by now. If he hasn't been drugged into a stupor by this discussion, he should be able to put everything back together with no further hassles.

Oh, wait...... Mr Red, do be aware that often times, the ToM will have three saddles (E, B and G) sloping one way, and the remainders sloping the other way, so don't worry if you see other ToM bridges set up like that. But all six screws will still be coming out the back, towards the tailpiece.

HTH


sumgai

[dd842]

sumgai said:

..... The bridge is officially designated as that place on the guitar at which the string's vibrations are ended. In fact, on all guitars, the actual contact point is called the saddle. In a great number of electric guitars, the saddles have been broken out to one per string, to facilitate intonation.

The tailpiece is that device with secures the strings to the guitar, without regard to tuning or intonation. .....

sumgai,

Thanks for the great explanation ... and, by golly, I think I've finally got it!

Until now, I thought the place where the strings are secured was always the bridge (like on an acoustic guitar).

So, when I borrowed my friend's ES-175, I incorrectly concluded that the entire assembly upon which the string's vibrations were ended must be the "saddle" and the place where the strings were secured was the "bridge".

Not so.

Thanks again sumgai,

Dan

[ChrisK]

BTW, this is the basis patent for the Gibson L6S (when they were owned by Norlin). It was designed by Willi Stitch aka the REAL Bill Lawrence.
www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT3915048

[jas]

I'm trying to return a L6-S to it's original state.. It had been rewired removing the "chicken foot" switch among other things. When I compare Gibson's wiring dia. (11-7-73) with the control assy www.gibson.com/Files/schematics/L6Swiring.PDF dated 12-5-74 they do not match. Can you tell me which is right.

[sumgai]

jas,

Hi, and welcome to the NutzHouse! ;D

When I compare Gibson's wiring dia. (11-7-73) with the control assy www.gibson.com/Files/schematics/L6Swiring.PDF dated 12-5-74 they do not match. Can you tell me which is right.

Might be able to, if'n we had a link to the wiring diagram to which you refer........




sumgai

[jas]

Here is the schematic I was talking about.
www.gibson.com/Files/schematics/L6-S.PDF
I think it's the same one you guy's have posted.

I was able to order a "chicken foot" from Guitar Center and was waiting to hear from Bill L about using his "Q-filter" as a replacement for the original. I thought I was close to done till I looked a the control assy picture.

thanks

[ChrisK]

By "chicken foot" switch I presume that you actually mean a rotary switch.

Can you tell me which is right.

Yes.

They both are (for different times).


There actually is a lot of info between the two links.

One gives the pickup combinations and schematic form. This should be duplicated on a 4P6T rotary (fair, not fowl) switch.

The other gives the wiring form and position.


guitarsbyfender.yuku.com/topic/2992/t/Q-filter-What-does-it-do-exactly.html

guitarsbyfender.yuku.com/topic/3324/t/Bill-s-main-contributions.html

[jas]

OK, different years on the drawing but this site is using the Gibson schematic dated 11-7-73 for talking points and the Gibson control assy which they use to install and wire the parts (and the only one they have on line) does not match. There are big differences between the two. I don't think the schematic is correct. Take a look and see what you think.

[sumgai]

jas,

I see your point. The two diagrams are electrically equalivalent, but the person doing the bench-work took a couple of shortcuts, knowing that the whole thing would still do the job as designed. The assembly drawing is "as built", not "as originally conceived in an idealized environment". It's a bit of fast-and-loose with most standards (of hooking things together), but it does work as intended.

Be aware however, I can't verify the switch terminals in the assembly drawing - sorry 'bout that.

HTH




sumgai

[jas]

It's a 3P6P switch not a 4P6P. I think you made a typing error.
I still say the control assy is not electrically the same. One case is the cap missing from the filter.

[sumgai]

jas,

When Chris said ".... should be duplicated", he probably slipt a finger or two..... to my way of thinking, it should have come out as "... could be duplicated". Finding a 3P6T rotary switch like the original isn't easy these days, and when one is located, it's usually way more expensive than can be justified.

If you're looking for the 0.01µf disc cap that goes from the pot to the inductor, it's on the other side of the pot. As noted previously, instead of putting it on the wiper, and running a long lead over to the coil, the installer just put it on the wiper, and ran the long lead from the bottom lug over to the coil. The cap is also connected to the control's top lug, but that's just for convenience of mounting - no additional parts are needed to physically hold the cap in place. The fact that the cap is "shorted" across the two terminals is pretty much a "ho-hum, who cares", in this kind of circuit.

That's what I meant about the difference between "as designed in an idealized environment", and the real world, where components tend to break and fall off, if they aren't physically supported correctly. Gibson could have gone back and corrected the schematic, but there was no real point in doing so - most technicians will immediately understand what happened, and why.

You can build it either way, I guarantee that it will work as you think it should, no matter which way you choose. Just be aware of those physical realities I mentioned, about components that suffer through lots of shaking around as a guitarist imitates Pete Townshend. ;D

HTH



sumgai