body materials

[branas]

hi, everyone. i've been gone from the forum a few years and what
do i see? a new forum! wow!
(had to make a new username and all...)
anyway, nice to see that the community john inspired is still here

i've got a few questions: what materials can you use for a guitar body?
what materials ARE used? why? why not?
links to such makers would be nice.
(i know someone made a plastic midi guitar recently, but i just can't google it)

i'm currently interested in alternative materials for guitar making,
and in "why do we use wood, isn't there a better material, or at least a similar one?"

i also need information what properties are needed by a material
to be suitable for body and neck.

PS. oh, and i'm talking strictly about electric guitars here.

[CheshireCat]

branas said:

hi, everyone. i've been gone from the forum a few years and what
do i see? a new forum! wow!
(had to make a new username and all...)
anyway, nice to see that the community john inspired is still here

i've got a few questions: what materials can you use for a guitar body?
what materials ARE used? why? why not?
links to such makers would be nice.
(i know someone made a plastic midi guitar recently, but i just can't google it)

i'm currently interested in alternative materials for guitar making,
and in "why do we use wood, isn't there a better material, or at least a similar one?"

i also need information what properties are needed by a material
to be suitable for body and neck.

PS. oh, and i'm talking strictly about electric guitars here.

First, welcome back. Second, interesting question.

More involved answer forthcoming, but here's the short one.

Many experiementors have been searching for a material even more ideal than wood. A material that has near-magical properties, magical tone, resiliance, durability, look, feel, ease of carving and crafting, and renewable, cost-effective availability.

Ironically, it turns out that wood itself is that magical substance. It sounds the best of any material out there, it's incredibly organic to work with (being the very definition of organic), carves well, crafts well, it's very strong and durable, very forgiving in terms of construction, looks and feels great, and it is so renewable and cost-effective, it's almost like it grows on trees or something.

That would probably be the main reasons that wood has been the standard.

More later . . .

Chesh

BTW - what type of alternative material did you have in mind? Also, why wouldn't you use wood?

[Runewalker]

Steinberger used an alternative composite. Doesn't Parker use wood then sheath them in carbon fiber composite. Go figure.

There are a couple of threads here on the relative merits of wood in contribution to sound, and many entries that reach religious fervor. So I won't resurrect them here, since apparently wars are sprung from righteous indignance.

But I would certainly like to hear about alternative materials if you are thinking of going that way.

Something in mid blocked, chambered (for weight reduction, not resonance) Corian, for example.

Also there are many woods out there that have not achieved convention among guitarists and so are not used. For example, a 'soft wood' like Douglas fir, has a density measure similar to alder or swamp ash, yet is never seen in guitars. Leo made his first prototypes from pine. Ever seen a pine guitar.

While wood is venerable its manufacturing does not meet today's statistical process control production quality consistency. They are inarguably a plethora of fine instruments made of wood, and piles of warped, knot holed, twisted, bent, bowed, checked, split and totally unacceptable detritus of discarded parts and whole instruments, from the failures of the material.

Many prefer the mystery and magic of the few stellar material-ed instruments, and probably enjoy the quest rifling through piles of guitars to find their treasure. But it is an unpredictable material.

[CheshireCat]

runewalker said:

Steinberger used an alternative composite. Doesn't Parker use wood then sheath them in carbon fiber composite. Go figure.

Many prefer the mystery and magic of the few stellar material-ed instruments, and probably enjoy the quest rifling through piles of guitars to find their treasure. But it is an unpredictable material.

Was this a general post on the subject, or was it directed toward a specific argument or postulate?

[branas]

cheshirecat said:

BTW - what type of alternative material did you have in mind?

I don't know yet. Maybe some polymers (sorry, don't know how to spell it).Maybe some alloy.( mix of metals,again spelling )
That's why I asked here.So people would tell me what do they think
that other material would be.
And say what they (dis)like about wood.

cheshirecat said:

Also, why wouldn't you use wood?

Experience,curiosity.
Would you know that it's nicer to drink from glass than metal glasses if you hadn't tried?

ps: I tried spell check here (nice stuff), so I guess everything is ok!

[RandomHero]

There have been a few decent shots at using alternative body materials of note in the recent years. Of late, one guitar that really astounds me is the Yamaha RGX. The thing weighs between three and four pounds, being made of some manner of composite material or the like. However, tonally, it's bold and deep, very present. It almost has a hi-fi sound to it, as the body seems to be responsive across the whole frequency range, but there's an extra oomph in the low mids that reminds me deeply of mahogany.

That one I've had personal experience. Another company claiming revolutionary material is Switch Music, the manufacturer of Innova guitars. They claim they've found a material that can be synthesized in any size, resonance, and weight, is extremely stable, and is fairly cheap to produce. I haven't played one, but they certainly are curious to me.

I'm not really ready to depart from the sound of a maple capped chunk of mahogany, and a plank of maple and ebony jutting out into space, myself. The thing about guitarists is that early on into the game, newcomers to our little culture are indoctrinated that VINTAGE = HOLY. If you look in comparison, to say, bassists; they've moved miles ahead. Combination of active and passive pickups, highly experimental body shapes and materials, synthetic necks and fiberglass fretboards are -nothing- new to the low-end crowd, yet most guitarists would cry heresy at the thought of applying similar concepts to their beloved 6-stringers.

I'm not even going to get into how the "lovely tube tone" of all-tube amps comes EXCLUSIVELY from tubes failures and inefficiencies as antiquated electronic components.

[UnklMickey]

all this talk about different materials: wood, polymers, metals.

and nobody mentioned Granite.


hmmmm?...........tone-stone?


rofl



unk



EDIT:

R.H., sorry about following up a post you put some thought into, with a T.I.C. remark like that.

but, when those things pop into my brain.................i just gotta. you know, the demons and all.

[branas]

RandomHero, what you said about guitarists...man, it's like listening to myself.amen! :-)
and thanx for the info, it's a place to start.

anyone else?

[dunkelfalke]

well, some guitarists are interested in new and experimental.
it is just too bad that they can't afford anything but classic :-(

[CheshireCat]

admin said:

That one I've had personal experience. Another company claiming revolutionary material is Switch Music, the manufacturer of Innova guitars. They claim they've found a material that can be synthesized in any size, resonance, and weight, is extremely stable, and is fairly cheap to produce. I haven't played one, but they certainly are curious to me.

You mean this?

admin said:

I'm not really ready to depart from the sound of a maple capped chunk of mahogany, and a plank of maple and ebony jutting out into space, myself. The thing about guitarists is that early on into the game, newcomers to our little culture are indoctrinated that VINTAGE = HOLY. If you look in comparison, to say, bassists; they've moved miles ahead. Combination of active and passive pickups, highly experimental body shapes and materials, synthetic necks and fiberglass fretboards are -nothing- new to the low-end crowd, yet most guitarists would cry heresy at the thought of applying similar concepts to their beloved 6-stringers.

Well, I'm not the least bit interested in vintage (in fact, I hate the "v" word), nor am I a tube snob, but you do touch on some interesting topics.

First, apart from the synthetics, everything you just said about "Combination of active and passive pickups, highly experimental body shapes", and so on, are all things that I work with. However, unless you have an inside like on VibraCell, what else would you suggest for an alternative material? The point I was making was that wood already has so many of those magical qualities. And it isn't just me who says so . . . it was Ken Parker himself who pointed out that distinction to me originally, in an indepth and fascinating interview he gave. The fiberglass/epoxy exoskeleton of his Parker Flys was meant to give the Fly enough sturdiness and rigidity to stay stable while using just enough wood to be resonant and tonally pleasing.

Also, second . . .

admin said:

I'm not even going to get into how the "lovely tube tone" of all-tube amps comes EXCLUSIVELY from tubes failures and inefficiencies as antiquated electronic components.

Then why are all of these "advanced technology" amps so busy trying to model tubes?

Just askin' . . .

Chesh

PS - Here's the copy on the new Vibracell Technology . . .

Simple to radical ideas throughout time have inspired passion to develop new and better technology. It has been our vision and passion to bring to the market stringed musical instruments that are not only superior in quality but to produce these instruments in an efficient and environmentally friendly way. After more than ten years in development this vision has become a reality with the creation of Vibracell Technology.

In order to understand this exclusive patented technology one must have a basic understanding of how traditional stringed instruments are currently designed and manufactured.

Traditional wooden guitars and basses can be produced from a number of different types of woods or combinations of wood. It is the selection of the type of wood that will give the instrument its character. Not all woods are created equal nor are two pieces of wood exactly alike. Another factor to consider when selecting the wood is the cost. Good quality woods simply cost more and are no longer in abundant supply. The wood for guitar bodies is not the only consideration, woods for the necks and fingerboards are equally as important. Different types of wood used for fingerboards and necks will transfer energy at different speeds and intensity.

Now, imagine for a moment that you could give the guitar designer a piece of wood with the exact density to deliver ultimate vibration and frequency. Imagine a piece of wood that can be styled and shaped and also have a perfect balanced weight. Imagine a finger board that could deliver energy to the guitar body faster than traditional wood. And consider the cost for a guitar or bass guitar with a neck and body made as one piece. Wouldn't this be the ultimate neck-thru body? Are these ideas to far out in the future?

Vibracell Technology delivers all of this and more...

Vibracell is a patented process of completely molding both electric and bass guitars including the neck and headstock, from the patented Switch Vibracell material creating an instrument with precise harmonic resonance and sound frequency. Vibracell allows the entire instrument to be created as a whole with complete control of neck, body weight and density by controlling the internal cells. With the ability to control the cells we can effectively tune the body and neck to exceed the characteristics and response of those instruments made from the best available woods in the world. Additionally, Vibracell has the pure strength to withstand extreme temperature changes that affect traditional wooden bodies and necks.

The ability to control the cells density allows the neck to be formed with the body as one piece. Vibracell allows a true one piece neck-through design that eliminates the gluing of two half bodies to the neck. The one piece neck-thru body approach allows for energy to be transmitted through the entire body not only with extreme efficiency, but at a higher rate of speed ultimately delivering pure sustain and clarity.

Vibracell technology allows the instrument to be created equally, time and time again without variances in sound due to the variances in wood.

Vibracell models are offered with traditional Rosewood fingerboard and our proprietary Ebonite fingerboard. Ebonite provides the bold rich smooth warm sound of ebony along with the punch of hard rock maple. Ebonite transfers the energy from the neck to the body at an extreme high rate of speed and intensity resulting in superior crystal clear harmonics and extraordinary sustain.

Vibracell is considered one of the few, if not the only, major breakthrough in the creation of musical instruments today. Since the beginning of time change has been inevitable. However, change would never be a consideration if there were never a question of need or improvement.

[jester700]

The reason tubes are modeled is the same as the reason strats outsell newer, better designs: human psychology, better known as "taste". Had transistors been invented 50 years earlier, I don't think we'd be desiring tubes. The collective taste would have been attuned to the solid state sound from the get go.

Alternative materials have been successful to a degree: The graphite Rainsong guitars have gotten good reviews, and what better test of wood "sound" than an acoustic?

That vibracell thing looks interesting. The description sounds kind of like Catalyst's SoundCompound:
www.catalyst.nl/soundcompound.htm

I was interested in their "NXT" guitar a few years ago, but the only dealer in the states was Ed Roman. Good choice, Catalyst!

[Ripper]

I have heard that there will be a shortage of tone woods.

I dont know if thats true, but if it is I guess we can all expect to pay more and more for our beloved twangers.

Correct me if im wrong...doesnt Jack White ( White Stripes ) use a hard plastic guitar?
Ugly as sin by the way.

[RandomHero]

jester700 said:

The reason tubes are modeled is the same as the reason strats outsell newer, better designs: human psychology, better known as "taste". Had transistors been invented 50 years earlier, I don't think we'd be desiring tubes. The collective taste would have been attuned to the solid state sound from the get go.

Thanks for answering the question for me, Jester. Although on second thought I'm not sure if the solid-state affinity is exactly true... there was a time when silicon was salvation, but eventually the guitar crowd rebelled and reverted. I'm just wondering what might happen to the world of musical instrument amplifiers if people put as much R&D into finding -new- technologies altogether as they do trying to emulate -old- technologies to appease the "I have so much money in my wallet that no sales rep on earth is going to argue in the slightest when I say anything but an all tube amp is total crap" customer base.

[CheshireCat]

admin said:

jester700 said:

The reason tubes are modeled is the same as the reason strats outsell newer, better designs: human psychology, better known as "taste". Had transistors been invented 50 years earlier, I don't think we'd be desiring tubes. The collective taste would have been attuned to the solid state sound from the get go.

Thanks for answering the question for me, Jester. Although on second thought I'm not sure if the solid-state affinity is exactly true... there was a time when silicon was salvation, but eventually the guitar crowd rebelled and reverted. I'm just wondering what might happen to the world of musical instrument amplifiers if people put as much R&D into finding -new- technologies altogether as they do trying to emulate -old- technologies to appease the "I have so much money in my wallet that no sales rep on earth is going to argue in the slightest when I say anything but an all tube amp is total crap" customer base.

Tubes will always be preferable. It all gets down to the way they distort.

One of Craig Anderton's contemporaries and compatriots did a beautiful job of explaining it in one of Craig's books. I'll see if I can get the info together, but basically tubes rendered a rounded squashed kind of sound reproduction which is more pleasing to the ear and sounds more like the human voice than does solid state, which renders a hard, edgy "clipped" sound, which can be jarring and grating on the ear.

Craig had a marvelous graph which illustrated this phenom. I'll see if I can get a copy of it.

Chesh

[jester700]

I understand the classic "even" vs. "odd" harmonic structure of tube vs. SS distortion. I was just getting at the fact that we might well prefer tubes because that was what we were used to, and after a couple decades that was the common thinking. AND that since Leo was a practical man, had SS been around when he made his first amps, they'd have likely BEEN SS, because the fuzzy aspects weren't a big deal back then - they were just trying to make a louder guitar.

Your point of tube breakup being more like a human voice and preferable regardless of all that makes logical sense. But "preferable" is a taste call anyway. I often like a JC120 sound better than a twin, and for thrashy stuff SS an sound "tight" where tubes sound "muddy".

[RandomHero]

Aye. All well said, Jester and Chesh. But my point is only this:

Yes, tubes do have a warm, unpredictable, organic tone to them. And that is great for a lot of musical applications. I'm just wondering if there is a way, if it were researched with enough gusto, to reproduce the electrical function of tubes WITHOUT:

Expensive retubing and maintenance
Warm up time and the like
Heavy, expensive output transformers
And in the case of a -real- all-tube amp, (electrically) faulty AC rectifiers

[UnklMickey]

There are some solid-state devices that have a similar "organicity" to tubes.

interestingly enough, they sound more like what a (guitar) tube amp guy would want, when they are used in the most barberic configurations.

too much effort in making the circuit "hi-fi" is a step backward.

magnetic saturation in an output transformer is another important ingredient in a good "tube soup".

lose the tranny, lose some flavor.

old fashined carbon composite resistors used in just the right places can add some "air", so i've been told.

i tend to stay away from them because sometimes they become VERY noisy.



i think the whole size/weight issue doesn't necessarily have to be an issue at all.

i used to work on guitar amps, in my parents' basement, when i was a kid.

the first time i lugged an SVT up and down the steps was the last!

that thing weighed almost as much as i did (at the time).

so after that whenever i worked on one, it was on the condition that it be delivered to and from my workbench.

but i'm not suggesting that you hire a roadie to move your amp.



there is a much better way to get tube distortion, without the size and weight.

get a small tube amp.

the most common question i hear is: how do i get my amp to break-up at lower volumes.

easiest answer: get a smaller amp.

question: but, what if that small amp isn't big enough to carry the larger venues i play.

answer: mic it.

that gets you the tone you want, at any volume you want. (as long as its a volume greater than the amp alone.)

even the VJ is a bit too loud at 5 watts. 500 miliwatts would be "just right".

so why would you want a big tube amp?

maybe for the "warmth" when playing clean.

personally for clean, i think a JC would be my choice.

but, when i want a mean tone, i use a small tube amp.


would our "collective tastes" be tuned to the "solid-state" sound, if transistors preceded tube?

good question. if jFETs were first, maybe not-so-much. (they can sound a little "tube-like".

if Bipolars were first, maybe more likely.

but then again, Opera came first. so that would suggest that musically, our "collective tastes" would be biased strongly toward Opera, right?


some folks like chocolate, other prefer vanilla, some won't eat anything but butter-pecan.

guess that's why Baskin-Robbins has 31 flavors.




unk

[ChrisK]

The "body thought" has moved to toob amps. Cool.

Solid state is interesting. The inventors of the mesa transistor (named for the "plateau" nature of its structure) NEVER had an inkling of the eventual (as if we do) proliferation thereof.

At the time, which "weren't" all that long after the first commercial device (the top hat point contact germanium CK721), the cost of a fully implemented transistor was $50. These guys were hoping to get to $5, and to get IC's into mass production. No one ever dreamed that the cost of a transistor would reach its current level of $1 per billion (the 1 giga byte flash drive has 16 billion transistors at one per bit cell).

Yeah, Leo would have used SS. Tubes make crappy amps (lo-fidelity). SS makes excellent amps (really high fidelity).

SS replicates the input exactly, up until it smacks its head on the "rail"ing. Tubes have the quaint habit of beginning to duck when they near the "rail"ing.

SS clips hard when the output is too tall for its own good, at high drive levels, a rectangular waveform results from clipping, with all of its harmonics.

A tube grows fat instead. Since the area under the VI curve goes to power, before a tube amp gets too nasty, it gets too loud, but seriously mellow. A push-pull output stage cancels the second harmonic and gives symmetrical "roundness". A single-ended output has asymmetrical distortion (abrupt cutoff, rounded "head") and is really a preamp on steroids.


We like tube amps 'cuz they're crappy.

The transformers are imperfect.
The tubes aren't electronic, they're electromechanical, no two are the same.
The carbon comp resistors are noise sources in and of themselves.
The caps were crappy (and still are the weak link in any power supply).
The speakers have limited response.

Heck, everything therein is crappy.

But, we sure do like the meld thereof.

And, there are just too many parts in a SS amp. Give me simple circuits with complex interactions. After all, us old farts need something to fool with that we can understand without causing an aneurysm.

[branas]

well, thanx guys, now i know how you feel about tubes & transistors and
whose dad can kick other's dad's butt.
oh, wait, i didn't want to know that (who would've guessed form the title ?!)

i'm VERY disapointed. on the old GN forum there weren't any girls discussing whose shirt is
nicer, and persuading each other why that's true.
tubes vs. BJT-s is like rock vs. metal. taste.

and it's not very nice to turn someones topic to offtopic.
there ARE private messages for that.

[dunkelfalke]

oh come on. this board isn't that crowded that it has to be kept strictly ontopic. it is more relaxed and chatlike here and to be honest i like it this way.

if i am in a bad mood i always can go here and read some friendly chatter of guitarist pals and see that there are still things worth living for ;D

[jester700]

All body materials suck. I have guitars of basswood, swamp ash, alder, and mahogany, and I can't get any volume out of them at all unless I plug them into a tube or solid state amp.

...and my dad can kick your dad's butt.

[sumgai]

Chesh,

....... basically tubes rendered a rounded squashed kind of sound reproduction which is more pleasing to the ear and sounds more like the human voice than does solid state, which renders a hard, edgy "clipped" sound, which can be jarring and grating on the ear.

Chesh

Hmmm. I'd entertain the notion that if the fella who originally made that statement were to visit a downtown Hong Kong market place on a Saturday morning, he'd soon change his mind about how pleasing a human voice can sound to the ear. I'd rather be forced to listen to Pat Boone sing through a 1966 Fender solid-state amp (arguably one of the worst ever made, period) than to have to go through that again.


sumgai

[NanooMan]

Could someone tell me about figured Dao wood? Alvarez uses this in their guitars. I've read many reviews saying that it gives a bright sound. Could someone tell me the quality of this wood? What's the difference between thyis and Koa, which is what it is supposed to be imitating? It's even listed as Koa sometimes. I found this Alvarez, and I've allways been sceptacle of Alvarez. Check out the guitar on Alvarez's site:
www.alvarezgtr.com/productpage.htm?CatID=38&ItemID=74

[CheshireCat]

branas said:

i'm VERY disapointed. on the old GN forum there weren't any girls discussing whose shirt is nicer, and persuading each other why that's true.
tubes vs. BJT-s is like rock vs. metal. taste.

and it's not very nice to turn someones topic to offtopic.
there ARE private messages for that.

So, let me get this straight: on the old GN1 Forum, concepts and ideas didn't meander to related sister arts as the concepts and principles were explored and extrapolated upon? Wow. Well, don't know what reality I just woke up from, but it must have been one of those alternate universes or parallel dimensions that alien abductees talk about. Paging Dr. Bell . . . Dr. Art Bell . . .

I don't know if you're being facetious (I would hope so), but I thought that that little bit of a detour was a fair one, since we were talking about the pros and cons of going synthetic vs. organic when it came to sound reproduction, tonal stability, and other merits of using alternative building materials.

Sure, with something like Vibracell technology, we can now make complete injection molded guitars that ostensibly sound decent (and we may eventually need to if we run out of hardwood), but I don't know how well that will be received, and I don't know if the tonal qualities will really measure up to wood. Also, while some work with necks as composites might enter into it, for stability purposes, I'm not sure if it will ever come close to having all the advantages that wood does on many levels for bodies (looks for one thing . . . I don't foresee collectors paying top dollar for guitar bodies that look like formica tops).

Either way, I think the organic vs. synthetic analogy, as exemplified by the age old tubes vs. ss debate, was a fair one.

Chesh

[UnklMickey]

well admittedly this thread went way off-topic, and i'm part of the blame. (a BIG part)

a gentle nudge might have been more appropriate, but Branas DID start this thread.

So if he wants to be a little less gentle, fair enough.


as far as:

"...girls discussing whose shirt is nicer, and persuading each other why that's true..."

sound good to me!

i'll gladly judge which girl's shirt is nicer (and who fills it out better).



oooooops .............. off-topic again!

but wasn't just the mental image worth it this time?



unk

[NanooMan]

Does this mean my question is stupid, or is it not worth answering.

[UnklMickey]

i'd say would have to be either be BOTH or NEITHER.

a stupid question wouldn't be worth answering. lol



seriously Jordan, this is a small board, and probably more than half of us have never even heard of Dao wood.

but, it's only been what? less than 15 hours since you posted that question?

be patient, some guys only check the board once or twice a week.

maybe when they do one of them will have some info for you.



cheers,

unk

[Runewalker]

nanooman said:

Could someone tell me about figured Dao wood? Alvarez uses this in their guitars. I've read many reviews saying that it gives a bright sound. Could someone tell me the quality of this wood? What's the difference between thyis and Koa, which is what it is supposed to be imitating? It's even listed as Koa sometimes. I found this Alvarez, and I've allways been sceptacle of Alvarez. Check out the guitar on Alvarez's site:
www.alvarezgtr.com/productpage.htm?CatID=38&ItemID=74

Not clear if you mean for an acoustic or solid body. If the Alvarez is an acoustic the Paldao is probably a veneer over a thin laminated soundboard. So the brightness is more in the ridgity of the laminate.

Paldao is frequently used as a veneer wood for it's dramatic grain appeance, not for its acoustic properties.

If for a solid body its density ranges from that of Alder or Black
Ash (light) to that of Oak or Maple (heavy). So the sound will depend on the specific desity of your specimin.

[oldhairy]

Where were we? Oh yah, body material.

I have had this discussion before and I couldn't get a straight answer. So I did some experimenting on my own.

I have built a tele style electric out of.... 'wait fir it" .... an old counter top. Yep saw dust board with plastic covering on top.. One right hand side, one left hand side.... it looked too thin so I put a peice of 1/4" ply in the middle of the sandwich. Glued it together, clamped it up for two days, traced the tele outline and cut it out on the bandsaw. Voila... telestyle body.

Installed neck, H/B & single coil p-up's, four way switching, wired H/B series and parallel,
Single coil is wired in and out of phase. And I'm not afraid to play it in public.. The variety of sound from the wiring set ups ( thanks to John A. for some suggestions) is more varied that anything you'll find on a shelf.

Hey, I'm off topic now!!

I have built bodies from laminated inexpensive body woods with fancy flamed maple tops.
And I have laminated solid wood slats of different colours and wood tones into some of the prettiest body shapes and colour schemes you can think of...

All I'm saying is, don't be afraid to experiment. The sky is truly the limit.

And don't let anybody put you down for trying. They're just looking for somebody to dump on 'cause they can't do it themselves.

Good luck and have fun!!

[simes]

unklmickey said:

i'd say would have to be either be BOTH or NEITHER.

Perhaps what you really mean is:

Neither one thing nor the other; rather, quite the opposite.