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Post by podunkphill1953 on Feb 20, 2007 21:37:24 GMT -5
In designing a electric guitar body after you figure out where the bridge will be placed how does on determine where to place the pickups?
I will be using three pickups one humbucker in the bridge and one single coil mid and one single coil neck position.
Is there rules or guidelines for their placement? Can the neck pickup go as close to the neck as possible how about the middle pickup should it be exactly in the middle or is it closer to the neck or the bridge?
Any info will be helpful personal preferences web sites and such will be taken into consideration.
thanks
Phill
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Post by Runewalker on Feb 20, 2007 23:28:57 GMT -5
For the geek set [and you know who you are!  ]: www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/index.html#positionI have read arguments pro and con on avoiding the geometries of pole alignment on the harmonic nodes. Most seem to claim that when the magnetic alignment is on a harmonic node that some sort of interference between the string oscillation and the magnetic field occurs causing some sort of cancellation. I don't know about all of that but the real engineers here will. I do suspect that the placement of the classic Strat geometry is a happy accident, and contributes greatly to quack at 2 and 4 positions. I would think that one of the neck pole rows is at about the 24th fret on a Gibby, which would be the high harmonic center. So go figure. RW |
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Post by UnklMickey on Feb 21, 2007 10:38:28 GMT -5
For the geek set [and you know who you are! ]:
... maybe they know who they are, but i wanna know too!.......tell me, tell me, please! hahahahaha as far as the harmonic node issues, think about it for a minute... if we look at the most prominant node (at 1/2 the length of the string) what happens when you fret a string? the node moves closer to the bridge, right. how many songs can you play with only open strings? placement according to harmonic nodes? fuggedaboudit! |
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Post by podunkphill1953 on Feb 21, 2007 11:51:30 GMT -5
so tell me if I have this correct one is to look at the total string length between nut and bridge and measure the imaginary frets after the 22nd fret on the neck to determine pickup locations. If this is so where do we go after the 24th fret for the neck pickup? how many frets down for the middle and then the bridge pickup?
thanks
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Post by sumgai on Feb 21, 2007 16:37:29 GMT -5
Phill,
Don't think in terms of 'frets' or 'nodes', just copy what all the others have done, and be done with it.
Don't like the idea of copying? Ask yourself, what did Leo do to figure out where to put the frets of his very first guitar, the Broadcaster? He copied a Gretsch! Literally, he used a micrometer to measure the distance for each fret, and replicated that onto his new baby. He wasn't aware, at the time, that there was a simple formula for laying out frets. All he knew was that he wanted a longer scale length (25½"), and most other guitars on the market were 24¾".
So much for being anal about where to put the pickups. ;D
sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Feb 21, 2007 17:02:26 GMT -5
unk, Oh? And what happens to a string as I press it to the fretboard, closer and closer to the bridge? Does the string suddenly stop having harmonics?  In short, all of the harmonics move toward the bridge in lock-step to each other - the relationships don't change. And as Rune pointed out (Don Till's excellent link), there are 22 'relationships' (or 21 for a vintage axe) that any pickup will produce for you, no matter where plunk the thing down at, on your axe. (Shredders may have more frets, up to 28 on certain models of Ibanez guitars.  So the question becomes, is there an ideal starting point, a place where you get the 'best' sound possibilities? No, not really. Let me qualifiy that. I have a Strat, but I also have a dummy Jazzmaster, recently acquired for those days when the mad-scientist mood strikes. ;D The neck pickup on that instrument is placed such that the magnets line up exactly under the 25th fret. That's no accident, that was dictated by the fact that to move it just one fret's worth toward the neck (under the 24th fret) would have placed the pickup cover off of the pickguard! But did Leo move it back only enough to keep the pickguard intact? No, he moved it back a whole fret's worth. Why? Because the nodal relationships were intact at that location. Proof? Easy! Simply pretend to be a folkie and clamp a capo on the first fret. Chime your open strings. Sound familiar? Riiiiiiggghhhhtttt. Thought so. So I whipped out the Bastardcaster™, put the neck pickup under what I calculated to be the 25th fret, and fired it up. (Ugly, everything dangling all over the place, have to be careful, etc.) Worked like a charm, that expected Fender SC tone. (Well, as much as a cheapie pickup would ever give me.  ) Now, don't extrapolate too much here. I've got a friend who builds guitars for a living, and he's experimented with pickup placement. As the set moves towards the bridge (to make room for more frets on the fingerboard), the sound does take on a different characteristic. In fact, I think his 24 fret guitar (25½" scale) sounds a lot like a Gibson..... an awful lot like one. But that's just me, YMMV. ;D sumgai |
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Post by ChrisK on Feb 21, 2007 17:49:12 GMT -5
The 24th fret, being at a binary sub-multiple of the unfretted string length, will have a null response for some harmonics (again, for unfretted notes).
Where one plucks the string also has a distinct effect on the harmonic generated from the energy pulse wave that propagates up and down the string (go look down a clothesline and pluck it to see). This works in conjunction with the superimposed harmonics that are a function of string sensing positions.
However, the magnetic aperture of a pickup is fairly broad and falls off in an analog (not necessarily linear) manner.
Calculating the exact positions of frets has been known for a long time (that whole equally tempered thing). An octave is a ratio of 2. An octave has 12 equally ratio-metrically spaced half-steps.
Step Ratio = 2^(1/12) or approximately 1.0594630943592952645618252949463
While such precision waited for the computer, one could easily get within 3 decimal places (closer than one could physically cut the slots) with the easy application of logarithms (also known for a long time).
I suspect that Leo may indeed have calculated the exact position for the neck, middle, and bridge pickups (nah, it was just where they fit for the widest harmonic variation). If he'd really been paying attention, the middle pickup would be ratio-metrically placed rather than just smack dab in the middle (he was an engineer, not a musician).
In the ongoing saga of the Series of Unfortunate Events, I bring to reference that whole unfortunate tremo'Leo thing (it's a VIBRATO Sparky).
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Post by UnklMickey on Feb 21, 2007 20:30:30 GMT -5
Sumgai, you had me at... ...So the question becomes, is there an ideal starting point, a place where you get the 'best' sound possibilities? No, not really.... Chris: ...If he'd really been paying attention, the middle pickup would be ratio-metrically placed rather than just smack dab in the middle... maybe it would be worth experimenting to see if that would make a difference, but...... B+M and M+N both QUACK, so i say: happy accidents ARE. |
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Post by ChrisK on Feb 21, 2007 22:34:56 GMT -5
The impression that I get about Leo is that most things were empirically (as opposed to theoretically) determined.
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Post by podunkphill1953 on Feb 21, 2007 23:07:40 GMT -5
sumgai
Thanks for the logical response to this situation. Do you have the measurements of a strat from the nut to the first, second, and the third pickup? I believe this will be the best possible solution to my problem.
thanks
Phill
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Post by dd842 on Feb 22, 2007 11:30:00 GMT -5
Step Ratio = 2^(1/12) or approximately 1.0594630943592952645618252949463 ChrisK, I am learning a lot on this forum, but it would be more helpful to me if you use specifics.Can you please refrain from using approximate numbers? Thanks, dd841.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 |
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Post by UnklMickey on Feb 22, 2007 11:58:01 GMT -5
The impression that I get about Leo is that most things were empirically (as opposed to theoretically) determined. The impression that I get about Leo is that most things were financially determined. |
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Post by UnklMickey on Feb 22, 2007 12:01:21 GMT -5
...Can you please refrain from using approximate numbers? ... if your Tongue was pressed any harder Into your Cheek, it would break right through. |
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Post by dd842 on Feb 22, 2007 12:05:54 GMT -5
if your Tongue was pressed any harder Into your Cheek, it would break right through. Yeah ... I guess I kinda knew that was a bit corny Dan |
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Post by UnklMickey on Feb 22, 2007 14:39:42 GMT -5
if your Tongue was pressed any harder Into your Cheek, it would break right through. Yeah ... I guess I kinda knew that was a bit corny Dan corn is good. |
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Post by ChrisK on Feb 22, 2007 18:28:16 GMT -5
Even running out to a million digits, approximation is/may be. Now, if we used 2^(1/12) as the BASE for the representation, the answer is exactly 1. Of course, your handle then gets just a little churlish................. |
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Post by podunkphill1953 on Feb 22, 2007 19:11:03 GMT -5
Does anyone have the layout distances for a strat on the pickups from the nut to the centerline of the neck pickup and then to the middle and finally the bridge pickup? Theses measurements will help me in turning this tele into a three pickup Carvin type guitar. Will take the before and after pics since I will be fabing a new pickguard instrument panel out of aluminum diamond tread plate and repainting the body from butterscotch to a metal flake candy apple red. So the measurements for the pickup locations will help in moving this modification along.
thanks
Phill
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Post by sumgai on Feb 22, 2007 20:41:26 GMT -5
Phill, Sorry, I was outside, and didn't hear the forum ring. You know how it is sometimes, eh?  Anyhoo, the distance from the fret side edge of the nut to the middle of the magnet for each pickup: - Neck - 19 5/16" (490mm)
- Middle - 21 11/16" (550mm)
- Bridge - 23 3/4" (603mm) (low E)
- Bridge - 24 3/16" (613mm) (high E)
HTH sumgai |
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Post by podunkphill1953 on Feb 22, 2007 23:50:28 GMT -5
thanks
Phill
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Post by ChrisK on Feb 24, 2007 1:56:31 GMT -5
Hmmm, the middle pickup is 60 mm from the neck pickup, and the middle pickup is 58 mm from the center line of the bridge pickup, so the middle pickup is like, smack dab in the middle. It appears that a lot of engineering analysis went into that one.... Theoretically, that is. ;D |
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Post by sumgai on Feb 24, 2007 16:48:54 GMT -5
Technically speaking, Leo wasn't even an engineer, just a very good radio repairman (technician). It's been said on more than one occasion that his ears were his best tools of the trade.  For an in-depth look at how he brought his ideas to fruition, might I suggest a book called "FENDER The Inside Story", by Forrest White. Reveals a whole lot more than most people ever dreamed. sumgai |
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