Fender Vintage Tremolo...bolts question.

[alfonso]

Hello,

I assembled my current guitar with an allparts alder body, finished with shellac (it was a lot of work but worth), a Canadian bird-eye maple neck with ebony fretboard, three black '78 original Fender p-ups in a Strat's lover mod configuration and a new vintage style Fender Tremolo bridge, the one with 6 bolts.

A friend of mine that has been a great guitarist from the late sixties who helped me to perform the circuit mods (he's a soldering guru) suggested me to have only 2 bolts, the extreme ones to mount the bridge and don't even make the holes in the body for the inner 4 ones.

I keep the tremolo bridge in a non-floating position and I must say that thanks to the locking Spertzel tuners, the graphite nut and a drop of lemon oil on the bridge saddles, it works very well.

The sound is very good, the sustain impressive.

But I've heard different opinions on the bolts issue for the bridge. Some say that it would be better to have all the 6 bolts mounted, others say that like I did is better for tremolo operation.

Your opinions? should I keep it as is?

Thx.

[ChrisK]

I keep the tremolo bridge in a non-floating position and I must say that thanks to the locking Spertzel tuners, the graphite nut and a drop of lemon oil on the bridge saddles, it works very well.

Hmmm, so it works good as long as you don't actually use it? ;D

(Sorry, don't get me started on vintage 6 screw vibrato design.)

But I've heard different opinions on the bolts issue for the bridge. Some say that it would be better to have all the 6 bolts mounted, others say that like I did is better for tremolo operation.

Most new vibrato designs only have the two outer-most screws. This is best from a fulcrum perspective since with more that two points, only two points will actually be in contact unless/until they wear and new points (screws) come in to contact. The vintage 6 screw vibrato may well have 6 screws anticipating such wear for better longevity.


I guess that with (the inevitable) wear, 6 may be better. I've only just begun to build guitars with 6 screw vintage vibratos (I actually don't know why, but I guess that I wanted to compare the pedestrian ones to the Callaham unit) so my opinion is not empirical in nature. I've always used Wilkinson or Fender 2 screw units.

[alfonso]

chrisk said:

I keep the tremolo bridge in a non-floating position and I must say that thanks to the locking Spertzel tuners, the graphite nut and a drop of lemon oil on the bridge saddles, it works very well.

Hmmm, so it works good as long as you don't actually use it? ;D

(Sorry, don't get me started on vintage 6 screw vibrato design.)

Hehe...well you're partially right....I never felt the need to use it "upwards" and even "downwards" I use it very little....I'll probably experiment the floating position too one day, but I like sometimes to bend the strings 3 semitones and even 4 while some others ring unbended, I need a quite firm back position for that and I can't figure how to do it properly with a floating system. I know that the Wilkinson system offers the locking feature, but my instinct pushed me to the classic design (maybe wrong decision, but I took it...). What I like though is to use the bar on low notes and power chords to reach the normal sound from a lower pitch...for that, what I have works fine...I think also that the sitting back of the bridge in good contact with the body might have a good influence in tone.

Anyway thanks, I think I'll continue to keep the 2 bolts for now, the links you gave me seem to favor that solution....regarding the wear, the Fender bridge seems quite robust and I'm not stressing it too much.

[ux4484]

Also remember that the two screw models usually have large brass inserts (pressed and glued into the body) that the screws thread into that spread the stress over a larger area as opposed to just a wood screw into the body. As you've said, if you don't use it much, it shouldn't be a problem, but I'd hate to see that one time you go postal on it and have one of the those screws rip out a section of Alder.

[hammeroff]

Hipshot makes a "tremsetter" that will keep you in-tune on a floating tremolo. Probably worth checking out.

I think the Fender vintage design is best used with all 6 screws, and as a simple vibrato system. As the gauge strings you use increases, the tuning stability of this system exponentially increases. Early Strats did come with 13 gauge strings on em (according to pops).


Now, alfonso, if your set-up is working fine for what you need, I'd just leave it. Please post some pics too bro! This sounds like a sweet ax!

[alfonso]

hammeroff said:

Please post some pics too bro! This sounds like a sweet ax!

Sure

This was made when I finished it:

www.alfonsodamora.it/Ima1/chitarra1339.jpg

[Ripper]

alfonso...

Nice pic!
I noticed your pups rather flush to the pickguard. Is that the way you like them set?

[alfonso]

deepblue said:

alfonso...

Nice pic!
I noticed your pups rather flush to the pickguard. Is that the way you like them set?

Yes, the action is set pretty low with the 010 gauge and they are not so far from the pick ups really...anyway I found a better sound and more sustain not having the p-ups too close to the strings, with a better shielding action and a well balanced level between different positions. I found also a better dynamic response this way.

Regarding the output level it's quite good to drive the TSL 100, if i really need an higher output I switch the bridge in series with the neck, that's like an humbucker output, but that slighter more distance than usual was found experimenting, it's probably a sort of sweet spot for the tone of this particular guitar.

[sumgai]

There's another issue at play here, and that is, transfer of the string's vibrations from the Inertia block/Bridge plate to the wood itself. There is no other tranfer medium than those very screws you are currently debating.

As luck would have it, there are no verified stories about why Leo chose to use 6 screws instead of 2, but lore and legend has it that he was thinking in terms of maximum tonal transfer to the wood. Perhaps that's correct, perhaps not, no can say at this late date.

FWIW, nearly all of the higher-end Vibrato makers use just 2 screws/bolts, probably mostly for the reasons mentioned by Chris, above. I think that if the best materials are used (no pot metal!), then good tonal characteristics will be found no matter how many/few screws are used.

And Al, if you'll take a few moments to practice the method, you'll find that if you apply a bit of pressure with the heel of your palm to the rear-most part of the bridge, you can prevent it from rising upward as you bend a string. In turn, that should let the other stirngs ring out at the correct pitch. Plus, it adds a bit to how much you've bent the string, making that job even easier.

HTH


sumgai

[alfonso]

sumgai said:

And Al, if you'll take a few moments to practice the method, you'll find that if you apply a bit of pressure with the heel of your palm to the rear-most part of the bridge, you can prevent it from rising upward as you bend a string. In turn, that should let the other stirngs ring out at the correct pitch. Plus, it adds a bit to how much you've bent the string, making that job even easier.

HTH


sumgai

That's a good suggestion...I should experiment a bit, even if it means changing my long time habits, like a position of the right hand that's not very much at the bridge level, but hey, life can't be freezed in old habits!

[alfonso]

Hey guys...good news!

I regulated the bridge unscrewing a little bit the clamp screws, keeping the 3 springs, and I found a good position that allows for half tone up...it's stable enough and well manageable. The hand compensating string bending just sitting on the bridge is a great tip and there is not too much to counter balance indeed. Thanks sumgai!

It takes a little more to tune, but not so much and with some new lemon oil drop on the bridge saddles it keeps the tuning amazingly well.

Regulation worked well because a good luthier I had met at a friends party who had given me his phone number, very kindly suggested me how to do it, the number of springs to keep and how much to unscrew. But he also asked me what was the wood for the body after I told him I had two screws only.
After he learned it is alder, he told me to put all the six screws for the bridge, because the wood is soft and the 2 holes could suffer and get larger with time.

Thank you all.

[sumgai]

al,

After it is alder, he told me to put all the six screws for the bridge, because the wood is soft and the 2 holes could suffer and get larger with time.

Hmmm, I wonder if Warmoth knows this.........

OTOH, I'm glad to hear that you like the 'gently floating" bridge idea, I've been using that setup for almost a decade, and have no problems with it. Using it is a mind-set adjustment, particularly if your "picking lane" is not where your palm's heel rests for easy use in controlling the bridge under severe string bending conditions. In that case, just use the TremoLeo^® handle that was kindly provided with your axe

HTH


sumgai

[alfonso]

sumgai said:

al,

After it is alder, he told me to put all the six screws for the bridge, because the wood is soft and the 2 holes could suffer and get larger with time.

Hmmm, I wonder if Warmoth knows this.........



sumgai

I imagine that the difference is that in case of the 6 bolts they are just "biting" the wood without the larger inserts of the 2 bolts models.

What I found is that the sound changed a bit, not worst, not less sustain or more, just a different tonal balance...maybe it's just a wrong impression but it seems a tiny bit fatter.

[ChrisK]

2 screw vibrato's use inserts. The Wilkinson posts actually are setscrew locked into the inserts once height is set.

I suspect that the 6 screw vibrato came about for all of these good reasons:

The screws of the day were soft,

The tremo'Leo vibrato top plate was soft,

The screws were of small diameter causing hole elongation(especially compared to inserts),

Maybe Leo wanted to convey the robustness of his patented idea since most vibrato designs of the day (with the exception of Bigsby) were not.

[alfonso]

I've put the missing 4 bolts....and......awful! The sustain, that indeed was impressive for a strat with 2 bolts only, became shorter and the tone...o.m.g. it's like the worst part of the treble, the harsh part of it got boosted and some unpleasant components all the way!

I reverted back to 2 screws only and my magic tone was back again...I think I'll keep it as is, and if I see something weird happening to the wood with time I'll change my vintage tremolo with a standard one.

I couldn't imagine such a big difference.

[ChrisK]

After he learned it is alder, he told me to put all the six screws for the bridge, because the wood is soft and the 2 holes could suffer and get larger with time.

Alder soft?

While it ain't maple or hard ash, at least it ain't basswood which will crumple under the threat of a distant sneeze.