drummer
Apprentice Shielder
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Post by drummer on Aug 5, 2007 5:58:56 GMT -5
Hi there, I'm new to the site and new to guitar building so I have a question about the wood type. I'm building a solid bodied guitar for my A level project at school and I'm curious as to whether the type of wood used to create the body actually affects the sound of the guitar, I've seen a lot saying that it does but I'm not entirely convinced, does anyone have any experiance allong these lines? Thanks in advance.
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Post by Runewalker on Aug 5, 2007 8:27:37 GMT -5
Oh boy... the infamous tonewood discussion.... tonewood, toneplastic, tonebone, tonemetal, tonetape, tone, tone, tone. Remember the original Steinberger was almost all plastic and metal. The tonewood fervor is a religion, with supplicants and cult worshipers on every pew and every side of the aisle. Since it is more in the realms of beliefs it will never be resolved without armed jihad and a fight to the death conflagration. Here is one of the argument threads that was a touchstone to the topic, but it keeps reappearing in many forms: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=repair&action=display&thread=1133169573&page=1[/url] actually that it the second touchstone, here is the first: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=coffee&thread=1119075399&page=3here's a broad search touching directly and tangentially on the topic: Tone Search(Give it few moments, the search engine takes awhile.) Timbre in solid bodies is more about substrata structure and coupling of the stings to the substrata. In other words, tone in this context, is physics. or for zen-master CK: physics is. As in all religions, you must choose your own WoodGod, albeit of course those religions of a more fervent belief insist the Wood chooses you. (EDIT: corrected first and last links - sumgai)
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Post by wolf on Aug 7, 2007 0:23:54 GMT -5
drummer And besides all the regular woods you'll read about, some guitar companies have used some really exotic hardwoods. Kapere wood was used by Route 101 Guitars (now out of business) and paulownia which is used in the Vendetta XM by Dean Guitars. Nonetheless, just stick to the traditional hardwoods and you should be fine.
And since this is GuitarNuts™, you might think that once you have decided on the proper hardwood body, that the job is nearly finished. However, you've just explored the very tip of the electric guitar iceberg. Don't forget you'll have to decide on pickups, volume controls, tone controls, pickguards, etc. Among other topics, pickups generate almost as much heated debate as the tonewood discussions.
Anyway, welcome to GuitarNuts™ and you'll find plenty of help here.
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drummer
Apprentice Shielder
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Post by drummer on Aug 7, 2007 7:40:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the info, and the welcome I guess the wood matters a little, but not a huge amount so I should go for a wood that isn't going to be really heavy and will 'supposedly' give a nice sound. Even so what woods would you reccomend? For whatever reason; workability, cost, sound or appearance etc?
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Post by Runewalker on Aug 7, 2007 10:51:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the info, and the welcome I guess the wood matters a little, but not a huge amount so I should go for a wood that isn't going to be really heavy and will 'supposedly' give a nice sound. Even so what woods would you reccomend? For whatever reason; workability, cost, sound or appearance etc? Depends on the sound you are seeking and the coupling hardware you will use. Denser tightly grained woods, like maple, will give a brighter sound. Grainy, less dense woods will be more "airy," dissapating string vibrational energy more rapidly then hard dense woods. A trem routed and hardward loaded guitar provides loose coupling and has large areas of wood routed out, reducing the core density of the string vibration reflective plane. Unless it is a Jag style or Bigsby style vibrato. So tell us where you are trying to go. The conventional standard woods are alder and swamp ash for Strat styles, Mahagony for Gibbys, Mahagony with a carved plate of maple for LPs and PRS styles. Basswood is used a lot in foreign originated guitars but has varying allegience. A lot of Ibanezes, ESPs, Epiphones, Cort, Samick (last 2 do a lot of private lable OEM production) and other asian guitars use this wood, probably more for plentiful availabilty than for "tone." You will see Agathis used in cheaper guitars and I hear various disparaging remarks about this wood. Also finish is an issue. During the period where harder, denser, heavier was the model for builders and guitarist seeking more sustain (along with brass nuts, sustain blocks, bridges, etc) you would see maple guitars. Hard, dense and heavy along with hard coupling made for bright guitars. I always wondered then why other similar desity woods like oak were not used. I think it was because of the high amount of filler required to surface up the grain. More pores affects your finish decisions.
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drummer
Apprentice Shielder
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Post by drummer on Aug 7, 2007 11:03:09 GMT -5
Depends on the sound you are seeking and the coupling hardware you will use. Denser tightly grained woods, like maple, will give a brighter sound. Grainy, less dense woods will be more "airy," dissapating string vibrational energy more rapidly then hard dense woods. A trem routed and hardward loaded guitar provides loose coupling and has large areas of wood routed out, reducing the core density of the string vibration reflective plane. Unless it is a Jag style or Bigsby style vibrato. So tell us where you are trying to go. The conventional standard woods are alder and swamp ash for Strat styles, Mahagony for Gibbys, Mahagony with a carved plate of maple for LPs and PRS styles. Basswood is used a lot in foreign originated guitars but has varying allegience. A lot of Ibanezes, ESPs, Epiphones, Cort, Samick (last 2 do a lot of private lable OEM production) and other asian guitars use this wood, probably more for plentiful availabilty than for "tone." You will see Agathis used in cheaper guitars and I hear various disparaging remarks about this wood. Also finish is an issue. During the period where harder, denser, heavier was the model for builders and guitarist seeking more sustain (along with brass nuts, sustain blocks, bridges, etc) you would see maple guitars. Hard, dense and heavy along with hard coupling made for bright guitars. I always wondered then why other similar desity woods like oak were not used. I think it was because of the high amount of filler required to surface up the grain. More pores affects your finish decisions. I've just realised how much more there is to think about! I'm looking for a relatively low sound with a large sustain, what would suit that? Oh, and the surface is most likely going to be painted.
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Post by jkemmery on Aug 7, 2007 18:51:47 GMT -5
Drummer,
Here's a question for you ... are you going to make the body yourself, as in some sort of woodworking class, or are you going to use a pre-made body? Bear in mind common species such as Alder and Ash, as well a Poplar and Maple are more plentiful and cheap. If you're definitely going to paint it, Poplar might be a good choice, although it's a bit heavier than Alder or Ash, about the same as Basswood or Mahogany.
As far as tone a lot of it depends on the style of playing and level of distortion you're using. Since you're asking about a Hard Rock style of guitar, I would say that the wood has less effect than the pickups, but I'm sure there are those who will disagree. The bottom line though is to find a nice hardwood that you can afford. Same with the pickups really. We've been discussing DiMarzio's and they are, in my opinion probably the best pickup for the price, but, you could also check out GFS for a relatively nice yet inexpensive pickup.
Most of all though, whatever you choose, good luck and have fun. Post some pics of the finished product. There are two of mine in the gallery section, if you want to check them out.
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 7, 2007 19:31:44 GMT -5
For a project guitar that will have the best general applicability, alder, alder, and alder (the "chicken" of guitar tone woods). You can buy body blanks from USACG, Carvin, and some other places. www.carvin.com/Per USACG website: www.usacustomguitars.com/index.htmlwww.usacustomguitars.com/bodywoods.html"Here are some subjective descriptions of the woods we use for our bodies based on years of building, playing and listening. SWAMP ASH - Has a tight bottom end (which we all like), scooped mids and a bright top end. It has a very quick attack when striking the strings - which is great for some players and bad for others. It has very open grain, which makes it a pain in the backside to finish. It is a very resonant wood, so it sounds phenomenal played clean. Great for Funk, Surf Music, Blues with a bite, Country twang, vintage Rock, and clean smooth Jazz. ALDER - The "tastes like chicken" of wood. It has a nice even response all the way around the tone spectrum! Mostly known for its great Blues and Rock tones. It's the one body wood you can go play a Death Metal Gig one night, country the next night, Blues the next night and it's sounds fine for all of them. It is normally lightweight and has a closed grain which is a finishers dream. We carry hand selected Alder that is suitable for clear finishes as well as bursts and solid colors. MAHOGANY - We carry only hand selected Honduran Mahogany for tonal reasons (although there are prettier fu-fu breeds of it out there). Our favorite wood for different varieties of Rock and Jazz! Normally pretty non-back friendly in a solid body, especially after years of gigging! Mahogany tends to filter out some of the shrill highs, has nice mids, and a fat bottom end (reminds us of a old Queen song). Can't be beaten for chunky rock in a solid body, and can't be beaten for chunky Jazz in a hollow body. Sometimes we recommend using 1/4" Maple tops on them to get back some articulation if used with a Mahogany neck. Not the easiest to finish, but not the hardest either. POPLAR - Doesn't sound too bad, but we refer to it as "the poor mans Alder" and normally use it for prototypes. BASSWOOD - A nice resonant wood. Normally associated with Metal and Hard Rock guitars. Has a fat bottom and can sometimes (depending on pickups) have a mushy bottom end. But overall sounds pretty darn good. But if you look at it too hard it may dent because it is quite soft! REDWOOD - We have this only in 1/4" tops! A phenomenal sounding wood for a real warm Jazzy sounding hollow body. It is red in color and always has nice grain patterns for a clear finish. It is soft, but any hollow body will break if you drop it on it's face! We won't have it forever - we have a very limited supply. EASTERN HARD ROCK MAPLE - Durable, bright, and articulate. We can build entire bodies out of it for that 80's shrill screaming Metal tone. Rock maple can be used as a top wood if that's what you want. WESTERN MAPLE - Softer than rock maple, we of course carry all of the varieties for top woods (quilt, flame, and wild). Tommy really loves the look of wild "angel step" maple tops."
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Post by michaelcbell on Aug 7, 2007 20:33:00 GMT -5
I never knew basswood has a fat bottom. Wow, you learn something new every day
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Post by crazymanandy on Aug 7, 2007 20:43:27 GMT -5
Here is a interesting thread on poplar bodies: reranch.com/reranch/viewtopic.php?t=14863&highlight=poplarI personally think it is underrated. Obviously it ain't so hot for a clear or semi-transparent finishes, but for opaque finishes it is great. Warmoth rates its tonal properties as extremely close to alder. Besides, throw a couple poplar guitars in a blind test and I don't think anyone will notice. I was actually thinking about using it for a project, since it's hard to get Alder locally. And it is cheaper. CMA
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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 7, 2007 22:37:16 GMT -5
I'm thinking mahogany. But then, I know nothing about tonewood.
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Post by jkemmery on Aug 8, 2007 0:35:04 GMT -5
I agree that poplar is underrated in terms of tone ... but I don't use it since I normally go for dyed finishes with tung oil. Otherwise, it's really not a bad wood at all. I find the tonal differences between Alder, Poplar and Basswood relatively insignificant. Ash seems a little brighter, plus, it's probably the hardest of them all besides maybe walnut and has a great grain for translucent finishes. Since Drummer is making a guitar for a school project, wants an opaque finish and is looking at a Hard Rock/Metal guitar, I'd say poplar is a decent choice for him. That being said, Alder is is probably a great general wood to start with and get close to the tone you have in mind regardless. I'm currently working on a rear-route alder double cutaway. It's a nice wood and relatively light.
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drummer
Apprentice Shielder
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Post by drummer on Aug 8, 2007 5:32:55 GMT -5
Thank you very much for the input, I think Alder seems the best for what I'm doing. Oh and, I will be making the body from scratch, I have a nice design to work to but need to go in depth on everything before I start it, thanks!
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Post by Runewalker on Aug 8, 2007 8:32:04 GMT -5
Drummer: "I'm looking for a relatively low sound with a large sustain...."
Assumedly that means a darker, more snarly tone emphasizing bass and mid frequencies rather than treble.....
Sustain is more of a coupling issue.
Therefore the wood and engineering sounds more sounds more Gibson than Fender. If so your choices wood be:
Mahogany and either a Tuno-matic bridge and stop-piece, a one piece like on a LP Jr (Bad-butt or the Guitar Fetish knockoff would be good choices) or if you want to annoy traditionalists then a Fender style through the bod hard-tail bridge. Hotshot makes some nicely-massed units.
If it is a school project then you probably want a slab type approach rather than a carved top as that can be done more rapidly. If you choose Mahogany read up on the grain filler application to establish your paint base, and also on build up primer to further nail the smooth.....
bolt on construction is easier to execute than neck through or mortise and tenon set necks, albeit the last two do a better job at creating a monolithic chassis. Bolt on has the advantage that you could buy the neck rather than make one, and the neck is probably more demanding in precision and construction.
One option if you wanted neck through is to buy the Carvin neck through neck and then put wings and a top on the body portion. With a solid bridge, and the right choice of pups (and of course, GN2 Electronics) you would definitely get the tone you want.
Good luck. Send us pix, even in-process pix.
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drummer
Apprentice Shielder
Posts: 35
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Post by drummer on Aug 8, 2007 17:16:09 GMT -5
I understand the bridge makes a difference too. I was planning on a 1 piece bridge so thats ok. I'm defenatly making a one piece body and I am using a premade neck because I don't fancy making one from scratch AND, what's the gn2 wiring you're on about? Cheers
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 8, 2007 20:35:07 GMT -5
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Post by Runewalker on Aug 8, 2007 21:52:03 GMT -5
Piggybacking on CKs post (which for the kinky among you --- "piggybacking" as a term is completely innocent, and means complimenting and and expanding) check out the Schematics of his link.
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drummer
Apprentice Shielder
Posts: 35
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Post by drummer on Aug 9, 2007 9:15:35 GMT -5
Aaah, ok.
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Post by einstein on Aug 12, 2007 2:18:16 GMT -5
I have no idea if you can get paulownia wood but it rocks, its ultralight, has (hopefully) massive ring spacing, and very easy to shape(also to dent). Plus its rare, I was amazed to see that someone had already mentioned it earlier in this post. Likely you will not be using paulownia but remember of course that the sound of a guitar is about 10% body 10% neck/fretboard and 80% Pickups. For an added coolness you could attach a tiny and cheap piezo transducer and use it as a third or fourth pickup, I really like it blended with a bridge pickup. Anyways glad to see people still doing things for themselves. I too would use an established neck, why mess with perfection. Good luck.
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drummer
Apprentice Shielder
Posts: 35
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Post by drummer on Aug 12, 2007 15:52:57 GMT -5
Thank you
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Post by andy on Oct 16, 2007 15:08:21 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on Oct 16, 2007 16:31:08 GMT -5
Alan Ratcliffe is a friend of mine, from the MIDI guitar world. Nonetheless, much of his prose came from the JEM website, and certainly all of the images are from either Warmoth or USA Custom Guitars. But don't get me wrong, the man is a walking encyclopedia of electric guitar wizardry. Check out his own site, and in particular, his book called The Electric Guitar Handbook. (You might find a copy in your local library.) Consider buying his new one (not out yet), if you like what see in the Handbook. I should probably go invite him to our neck of the innerweb. If he has any time left over from writing his new book, I'm sure he could bring a lot of good info to our table. ;D sumgai
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Post by andy on Oct 16, 2007 21:35:48 GMT -5
Sorry, I didn't realise! I stumbled across that page a while back, and it seemed to cover a good amount of ground- If I'd checked the sources of the material perhaps I could have given more credit where it was due...
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Post by sumgai on Oct 16, 2007 22:02:32 GMT -5
Andy,
Apologies not necessary! Any way we can get good hard intel, we'll take it! Doesn't matter how it gets here, so long as it does get here. ;D
sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Oct 17, 2007 11:52:44 GMT -5
Well alrighty then, let's kick this thing up a notch........ Here's a rather long discussion on the topic at hand: Discussion of wood types at Harmony-CentralOut of that, I was lead to this site, which I found to be quite refreshing. John Calkin's Treatise on Guitar WoodsVery insightful, it both reinforces some of the current notions, and completely demolishes others with rigorous logic. I consider this article to be pretty much the last word, although I'm sure that someone on this planet will disagree. Be prepared to spend some time in front of those glowing electrons! ;D sumgai
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