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Post by quarry on Aug 11, 2007 7:43:33 GMT -5
I'm thinking of building this kit.... www.grizzly.com/products/H3123But I'd like to remove the tremolo. Is there any reason that I couldn't block the holes and end up with this...?  |
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Post by Ripper on Aug 11, 2007 11:53:09 GMT -5
quarry.... Would you paint a mustache on the Mona Lisa?  ( Im a Strat purist...it would be sacrilege for me to do, or even think that ) Kidding!!! It looks interesting. What about the spacing?...You know, F spacing etc. Would the string holes be too far apart on the bridge? |
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 11, 2007 12:34:39 GMT -5
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Post by Runewalker on Aug 11, 2007 16:32:16 GMT -5
Is there any reason that I couldn't block the holes and end up with this...?
Im a Strat purist...it would be sacrilege for me to do, or even think that .... [/size][/blockquote] The fact that it annoys the purists makes da mod even more compelling, just like putting a Fender tremolo (I know, "vibrato" [ language is rarely about precision, but is about common usage and connotative understanding]) on a Les Paul. There was a period of time where I liked to shove bored and stroked Chevy 350s into Jags and BMW just because it annoyed the purists so much, and of course gave some serious American cubic inches to vehicles sorely needing torque. Actually, given how guitarists like to think of themselves as cutting edge, radical musicians, it is amusing how conservative they are about their axes. but that is another discussion. Back to: Is there any reason that I couldn't block the holes and end up with this...? Your issue on blocking and boring bushing holes for the tuno and stop-piece is establishing a monolithic substrata for securing the bushings secure enough to manage the string tension stress. It would be difficult to fill the holes in such a way to establish the same substrata continuity and strength of an inviolate slab-o-wood. If you started with a hard-tail strat or even better a strat with no drilled or routed bridge intrusions, then by all means you could and should annoy the purists. You Tuno mod of course will not yield that purely warbley strat "sparkle" the purists go on about, but will be a stable, sustaining, less dissipating tone. Some would call it a more "manly" tone, but that is unnecessarily provocative. So trying to fill the routs with blocks and glue risks having a more unstable substrata for the tuno-stop. you can do all of this: www.projectguitar.com/tut/tht1.htmbut, of course that mandates a repaint. Then you would probably be better off with a Fender hard-tail style, or hip-shot hard-tail style bridge. I personally would be a little nervous about stability if the bushing hole relied on the plug or straddled the joints. Oh, and while you are there, be sure to throw in a humbucker to complete the annoyance factor. Even better, might be a switchcraft 3-way to really torch the rockets. Impossible you say? this scheme with an HSS will allow you to do just that with a Gibby style 3 way, 2 minis and a couple of push/pulls (with a double ganger tone pot) guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1181507361Yes it is true, those of us who develop, or in my case helped develop, a harness design, shamelessly hawk our little visions. Inexcusable hubris, wouldn't you say? RW, inexcused and proud of it |
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Post by wolf on Aug 11, 2007 16:32:33 GMT -5
As the saying goes "ask the man who ones one." Well, I own one and I highly recommend it. My review for it (wow six years ago) is on Harmony central at reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Saga/ST-10+Kit/50/1At the moment it is review #50 and the name is (what else?) wolf. As my review says, don't expect this to be a quick and easy assembly. You will have to make a lot of adjustments. (filing the nut, adjusting the truss rod, adjusting the action and intonation, shimming the neck, etc) I wouldn't replace any of the parts because that takes away from the bargain price. (I never even replaced the tuners everyone else finds so disagreeable). The only thing I did "replace" were the neck "bolts" (screws). Why? Because the company didn't ship these with the rest of the package. I'd say the neck "bolts" are the only thing that should be replaced because when the "correct" ones arrived, they were kind of puny compared to what I used instead. (I found some heavy duty wood screws in my workshop and those hold the neck very securely. - probably could survive an atomic blast.) Oh and instead of buying that at Grizzly™, try looking around to other places where you could find it much cheaper, which again, makes the project a lot more fun. As for the Carvin guitar at www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=GK1T&CID=KBNit costs $419. |
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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 11, 2007 16:58:37 GMT -5
...Your Tuno mod of course will not yield that purely warbley strat "sparkle" the purists go on about, but will be a stable, sustaining, less dissipating tone. Some would call it a more "manly" tone, but that is unnecessarily provocative... I was under the impression E.C. used a Gibby when he got his famous "Woman Tone". You describe this as more "manly"? ... exactly who WAS this woman? Ethel Merman? |
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Post by Runewalker on Aug 11, 2007 17:23:44 GMT -5
...Your Tuno mod of course will not yield that purely warbley strat "sparkle" the purists go on about, but will be a stable, sustaining, less dissipating tone. Some would call it a more "manly" tone, but that is unnecessarily provocative... I was under the impression E.C. used a Gibby when he got his famous "Woman Tone". You describe this as more "manly"? ... exactly who WAS this woman? Ethel Merman? Uh... Your mother? see? provocative. Fortunately for all I would never dip so low. No limbo here. [ good to hear from my Man the Unk) RW, impish as always |
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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 11, 2007 18:36:59 GMT -5
Nah, Mom is a mousy little woman. Tone-deaf, as well. |
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Post by quarry on Aug 12, 2007 7:53:21 GMT -5
Wow, didn't think I'd start such a discussion...  I've read the comments regarding the blocked portion(s) would not be as reliable for anchoring the tuno holes, etc. But... wouldn't it only be the bridge section that sits over the blocked area? The actual stop tailpiece would be anchored into nice fresh adler, no? I also agree, I need to find a cheaper (sorry, less expensive) kit to do this with! ;D I'll look at that Saga kit. I think I saw it for around $80...  |
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Post by Runewalker on Aug 12, 2007 13:03:06 GMT -5
[quote author=quarry board=repair thread=1186836213 post=1186923201]But... wouldn't it only be the bridge section that sits over the blocked area? The actual stop tailpiece would be anchored into nice fresh adler, no?
[/quote]
Yes, correct, assuming the bod is indeed alder.
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Post by Ripper on Aug 12, 2007 13:23:57 GMT -5
Rune...
Cheese off the purists if you must, but honestly....Whats the point of putting a Gibson bridge on a Strat? You can get Strats with no trem system. As im sure you are aware Gibson & Fender string spacing is not the same. There is NO point to doing such a makeover. Its like putting screen doors on a submarine. Drilling holes etc...
All that will happen is that you damage a beautiful piece of wood.
Unless of course you have money coming out your wazoo!
To sum it up for me...
Doing such things to guitar/car or whatever is the work of a hack.
Instead of thinking... could I??...Think:...Should I!
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Post by kuzi16 on Aug 13, 2007 1:08:33 GMT -5
im sure you are aware Gibson & Fender string spacing is not the same. along these lines... im building a guitar and using a pre made neck because i dont have the tools/experiance to build a neck at the moment. Its a bolt on fender style/spaced neck. i want to have a tune-o-matic style bridge. Gibson spaced. how big of a deal is this? would gison spaced pickups be used or f spaced? i never really thought about it untill this thread. |
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Post by sumgai on Aug 13, 2007 4:17:17 GMT -5
kuzi, Here ya go: Wiki article on pickups and strings spacing (and other stuff)Look about half-way down the page, there's a chart just for you.  Long story short, your bolt-on neck will seem a bit wider than necessary, so that shouldn't be a problem. If you're gonna use pickups that would drop right in where a Gibson Hb might be found, then you're also golden. But if you wanna go for single-coil units, then you'd best shop around and ask questions about the spacing of the magnets - if they're too wide (as in Fender-spaced), then your two E strings might not sound as loud as the rest, because they're too far inboard, and not close enough to the magnets to be heard. However, I'd as soon forget about irrigating the traditionalists, and just go straight for a Hipshot hardtail bridge, and enjoy the tone. These things can't be beat, period. (Well, maybe if you spend more money on the bridge than on the rest of the guitar.  HTH sumgai |
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Post by Ripper on Aug 13, 2007 9:46:27 GMT -5
Sorry guys "Hack" was a little harsh. No hard feelings? |
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Post by quarry on Aug 13, 2007 14:04:36 GMT -5
Hey, I've been called a hack by better than you... No hard feelings here! ;D Feelings... nothing more than feelings. Trying to forget my... |
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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 13, 2007 15:54:55 GMT -5
Hey, I've been called a hack by better than you... That sounds like the acceptance of an apology, and a smack up-side the head, in one fell swoop. Well done! Blue, we depend on people taking an opposing viewpoint. That way all the pros and cons can be discussed. If all we had were yes-men, the whole idea of a forum would be useless. Sumgai, I think the issues of F-spacing -vs- G-spacing is over-rated. It makes a difference, but not as much as one might think. The magnetic field doesn't extend in a cylindrical shape coming straight up from the pole-piece. The field drops off only slightly when you get outside that zone. Being a heretic at heart, I like this idea. I would envision it with a Quan, or a Wilkinson compensated for the bridge. That would of course mean the necessity of an extremely well made plug for the bridge area. For pickups, I'd go for a covered HB at the bridge, a Fender SC angled in the middle, and a P-90 at the neck. ...if you want to give the purists a wft moment, that would do it. |
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Post by kuzi16 on Aug 13, 2007 16:41:50 GMT -5
if you wanna go for single-coil units, then you'd best shop around and ask questions about the spacing of the magnets - if they're too wide (as in Fender-spaced), then your two E strings might not sound as loud as the rest, because they're too far inboard, and not close enough to the magnets to be heard. or place the pickup on an angle, right? |
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Post by sumgai on Aug 13, 2007 21:37:01 GMT -5
kuzi, As Unk notes, I am stating my case rather strongly. Yes, the magnetic field is not perfectly perpendicular to the string's axis (IOW, it's not perfectly parallel to the magnet's center line), so there will be some sensitivity to the outside strings' vibrations. How much, well that'll be a matter for experimentation. In point of fact, the more a pickup is "balanced" by the maker, I'd say it's more possible for a drop-off to occur. The more general, fairly priced, non-boutique pickups will very likely give admirable results. After all, when you bend a string, you are moving away from one magnet and towards another, eh? HTH sumgai |
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Post by Ripper on Aug 14, 2007 8:30:00 GMT -5
*Ouch*
I guess ive been told huh?
Well, I guess if you can dish it out you have to be able to take it. ;D
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Post by Runewalker on Aug 14, 2007 9:37:54 GMT -5
Eddie VH was a heretic when he pulled the Explore humbucker and sloppily installed (taped?) it into a Strat bod, and put only a vol control. He was a heretic when he began tapping notes. He was a heretic when he put the variac on the amps, or worse ran the speakers in the alt speaker output with no load on speaker one (ok, that was stupid, but he could afford new transformers). Within the confines of convention lies ..... convention.
Within heresy (often but not always) lies discovery and innovation. or " free your mind" to quote Morpheus. That said, the easiest conversion would be to use a Hipshot style, or even easier, just block the trem ---- or start with a hardtail blank then do the Tuno-stop or LeoQ. All will yield similar tonal properties. But the Tuno-stop will annoy the neighbors the most. Just be aware there are precision demands on post locations, both for scale, and for post to post dimensions. Also, keep in mind the Tuno has less saddle travel than a Fender style set of saddles, and must be installed at a slant to the direction of the frets to compensate for less travel. I have often wished that a mfg made a long throw tuno to help the home builder where scale precision is a little off. |
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Post by jkemmery on Aug 14, 2007 10:29:41 GMT -5
When it comes to putting a tune-o-matic on a strat, I'd be more concerned with the height of the bridge than with the string spacing. My stepson has a BC Rich with the one peice tune-o-matic style bridge, and the neck is canted back at a high angle to get decent action. You may find yourself shimming the crap out of your neck to pull the headstock down enough to account for the height of the bridge. If you're looking for a hard tail, I'd opt for the Hipshot products, as was stated earlier.
But if you're looking to experiment for the sake of experimenting, rock on, and let us know how it turns out.
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Post by quarry on Aug 14, 2007 20:21:06 GMT -5
I've never been concerned about the string spacing, but the above post by jkemmery does bring up a real issue...
If I were to do this, I'd really like to install a real Tune-o-matic; not a Hipshot...
I'll have to do some further research...
By the way, my Ibanez Artist has a Tuno that has a bridge piece that is not angled, but perpendicular to the strings. It also is "fatter" which allows for greater saddle adjustment.
Hmmmm.... maybe I can scrounge up an old Ibanez Tuno...?
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Post by wolf on Aug 14, 2007 23:08:21 GMT -5
quarry
My only posting so far had nothing to do with the Clapton Strat style guitar. I'd say build the kit first. Then, when you actually have it in front of you, customizations are more easily visualized and measured.
I still play my Saga Kit guitar quite often and I've had it for six years. Build the thing and you just might like the sound as is. (Of course, rewire the pickup switching so you can get series and out of phase options).
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Post by kuzi16 on Aug 15, 2007 1:37:55 GMT -5
I'm not trying to thread-jack this or anything i swear. It just seems that this thread is dealing with things that i thought about in my own from scratch project. When it comes to putting a tune-o-matic on a strat, I'd be more concerned with the height of the bridge than with the string spacing. In my project this is overcome by routing down in an "artful" way to lower the action. I don't feel like shimming the hell out of my neck. If this is a strat copy kit then maybe this idea could also be done if you don't mind losing some of the strat look. the guitar I'm designing right now has string through body and then the tune-o-matic. to lower it down and adjust the hight if the strings ill rout down around the bridge and all the way to the strap button the "image" of a trapeze tail piece. Since this design also calls for F holes that go all the way through (maybe one side maybe both) it will still be stylistically compatible. again this may not work for your design if you want to retain the strat look but thats how i got around that problem. on an unrelated note the word "strat" is not in this site's spell-check dictionary.  |
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Post by pollyshero on Aug 15, 2007 20:38:24 GMT -5
If you're actually looking to PO the purists, then I'd challenge you to do an excellent job so you can rub their noses in it. Come to Texas - me & Rune will buy you a beer and take you for a ride in something equally abrasive - like a Dodge Dart Swinger with a Chevy 350 instead of the requisite Mopar 340.
Bottom line? If you can think it, you can build it. DO IT - just because it appeals to you. No doubt you'll have to negotiate a hurdle or two, but I'll applaud your effort - even if it turns out to be a bust.
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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 15, 2007 21:38:16 GMT -5
If you're actually looking to PO the purists, then I'd challenge you to do an excellent job so you can rub their noses in it. Come to Texas - me & Rune will buy you a beer and take you for a ride in something equally abrasive - like a Dodge Dart Swinger with a Chevy 350 instead of the requisite Mopar 340.
Bottom line? If you can think it, you can build it. DO IT - just because it appeals to you. No doubt you'll have to negotiate a hurdle or two, but I'll applaud your effort - even if it turns out to be a bust. Spoken like a true Texan. |
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Post by Runewalker on Aug 16, 2007 16:48:37 GMT -5
Spoken like a true Texan. A CEO from the US walks in like he owns the room. A CEO from the Republic of Texas walks in like he doesn't give a d@nm who owns the flippin' room. A glass clink to your Shiner Bock, UD. Mo' BBQ! Beyond the value of discomforting purists in the noble quest of helping to free their minds, this mod should seek and find unconventional tones for the Strat. If the mod converts a trem routed guitar, then you still have all that spring cavity routing, which affects the tone by reduction of mass in the pickup plane. If you wanted to push the convention a little more, consider putting P90s instead of the Strat singles. You still get single coil spank, but this time with some Texas beef. You can even get quack if you are rigorous in the geometry of the pup placement. P90 TunoCaster.Shimming the neck for overall height: Yeah I have run into this issue before. Depends how high you need to go, but one way that still does the shim approach opposed to the router carving thing, is to use thick-stock brass plate. It can be doubled up for more height. It is soft enought to hand shape. You can mill and polish it to look like an intentional accent. If you don't like the brass color you could use aluminum stock. Just drill large enough screw pass-throughs to allow adjustment. Those esthetics may or may not appeal to you. I recently did this with aluminum for what I thought was a temporary fix, but I have grown a little attached to the accent, and in terms of feel, I never notice it. |
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Post by sumgai on Aug 17, 2007 3:51:09 GMT -5
PH, Since when is common good sense "abrasive"?  Isn't that why they made so many Bow-Tie mills, so the rest of the population could have fun too? ;D sumgai |
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Post by Runewalker on Aug 17, 2007 8:04:33 GMT -5
PH, Since when is common good sense "abrasive"? Isn't that why they made so many Bow-Tie mills, so the rest of the population could have fun too? ;D sumgai The corollaries between hot rodding cars and hot-rodding guitars and amps is closer than it might first appear. In an earlier decade I was just as obsessed about extracting hidden torque and horsepower from internal combustion engines as I was about extracting hidden tones out of pup arrays. The main difference? Hot-rodding guitar wiring harnesses ain't as messy as overhauling 350s (or of course in Texas, 454 Big Blocks). The other corollary relevant to this thread: ya got your Chevy, Ford and Mopar cultists, much less the Euro prisses, and now the Fast and Furious Saki burners. These guys [and like hot-rodding guitars it is 99% guys (go ahead an round up to a 100% -- see any swivel hips here?)] jack the he|| of their ride .... but are purists within their brand. You see a t-shirt all over the South that reads Chevy owners don't let friends drive Fords (and the inverse). I have a friend who builds and races dragsters. He converted a 65 Barracuda into a rod, part by part replaced by aftermarket technical rod gear. The purists Mopar head come up to the pit and want to wax up on how great Dodges were, and he (being of the heretic cult) cuts them off and says, "every Mopar part I replace makes this Bee-och run better," crushing the cultists. This is more a coffee shop converse, but pushing through to innovation means challenging the conventions. The inverse here on the Tuno-caster is slamming a tremolo (vibrato) on a Les Paul. That would be hard for me, because I may have a little cultist in me about Lesters, which is part of what makes it a good idea to help me release myself from constraints. (ok, I know you're thinking, "what constraints Runo?" but really I am quite demure --- sure.) |
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Post by quarry on Aug 17, 2007 14:48:30 GMT -5
Hot diggity dog!
I don't know just when I'll take this on, but I'm hoping its rather soon... The point is, now I'm certain I'll be building a TunoCaster, or Stratomatic, or Tune-o-stratic, whatever!
And, no, not to PO the purists, or the cultists, or whatever-ists... just because its there!
AND, I'm doing it on the cheap! Tune-o-Saga!
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Isn't that why they made so many Bow-Tie mills, so the rest of the population could have fun too? ;D