martinjae
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by martinjae on Apr 4, 2006 8:37:22 GMT -5
I have heard so much contravesy regarding U.S made versus Japanese or Mexican made Fenders can anyone tell me the REAL difference other than labor cost???
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Post by sumgai on Apr 4, 2006 16:32:17 GMT -5
MJ, Rather, ask yourself this question: Why, when it should be cheaper to build it in Japan, thus making it more appealing price-wise to buyers everywhere, why would Fender choose to build all of their signature models in the USA? If labor costs were the only issue, then Fender would just give the Indonesian laborers good quality woods and components to work with, and all issues would be settled. But there is a fine line in tradition that comes from quality control and pride in craftsmanship. The Japanese now have it, and they can do better than most American shops, but then they'd charge just as much as any American made model. They have their price points to consider too, just like we do. Other countries in the world have yet to come up to those standards, thus, we are "privileged" to have higher quality guitars built right here in the good ol' USofA. (And no sofa jokes, you jokers! ;D) All we have to do is come up with comparatively more scratch, and the privilege of owning one of these fine instruments is granted to us. </lecture> Now, since it is cost that seems to be driving your question, you'd be well advised to consider that Fender is just like any other company - they want as big a chunk of the total market as they can get their grubby paws on. They make instruments that will sell reasonably well at price points from $100 (at GC) to the very stratosphere. In order to do that, it's a classic case study at Harvard Business School that compromises are going to be made in quality of workmanship, quality of materials, and manufacturing processes (JIT vs. JIC, etc.). Many other factors abound that we don't normally think about, such as financing (hey, someone's gotta pay for all the stuff that's sitting on GC's floor before it goes home - Fender can't pay their people if they wait until the final retail sale!), transporation delays (midwest storms, anyone?), customs duties, advertising expenses, the list goes on and on. </second lecture> When you buy a Made in USA instrument, you're paying for all of that too, as well as a moderately or slightly higher labor cost to build the instrument. But if you're in the market to buy an instrument, then allow me to suggest that you forget everything I've just written, and instead you should go out and try several instruments of varying prices. Let your wallet guide your choice, but if you find something that says "screw your wallet, buy me, BUY ME, BUY ME NOW", then perhaps you and your wallet need to have a little chat, if you get my drift. ;D (Hint: if there are tears in your eyes, then you should be kind to your wallet and buy it some flowers on the way home, because it's just lost the battle! Ask me how I know.) sumgai
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Post by pollyshero on Apr 4, 2006 21:14:16 GMT -5
Go to GC or Sam Ash, or your local corner shop. Play and carefully examine both a brand new USA model and a MIM. If you can find a MIJ, do the same (by the way - has anybody else noticed that the price on MIJ Fenders is on the rise now that they're "rare"?).
If you can't tell the difference, then it really doesn't matter. If you can, pay whatever they're asking for the one you like, or build one you can live with.
Not too long ago (after 30 years of wanting) I finally quit denying myself and decided that I would have that Strat AND that Tele. I would shop all the inet stores, GC, Hermes music (local warehouse type store), Mars Music (before it went bust) and Sam Ash when they moved into the building. I must have played 100 guitars (yay for me!), and I simply COULD NOT decide. My heart said yes - but my wallet was tuffer than sumgai's.
I wanted a USA, but didn't want to pay the price, so I became an ebay troll: for six months I kept buying & selling parts until I got what I wanted. Strat wound up costing around $400: USA neck, electronics & hardware, MIM body. Tele wound up at around $800: All USA.
I learned that the hype may or may not be warranted - I have yet to see a crappy USA model off the shelf, but I have seen some mighty fine MIM axes that would have been great deals. I only played two MIJ Strats that I remember & they were excellent - the only real difference between them and a USA were the decals proclaiming where they were made.
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Post by RJB on Apr 6, 2006 9:04:19 GMT -5
The breakdown of Fender products.
Squier Affinity Series - Made in Indonesisa - Bottom rung, but dig through the pile and you will find a playable starter guitar
Squier Standard - Made in China - Surprisingly well crafted guitar, from OK hardware. You still need to search for the gems though. Some interestin combinations not available in the standard line. The Master series rival the Mexican Fenders. Great as a tinker base, or daily beater.
Fender Standard - Made in Mexico (El Fender) - Pretty well crafted from good quality parts, might need a good setup to reveal how good a guitar it is though. The hidden gem is the Deluxe series. These are crafted from mostly american series parts. Look on ebay and the Deluxe Players Strat is always being parted out. It's worth more for parts than the guitar costs new.
Fender Japan - A independent company lisenced to produce and sell Fender trademarked products. Many late 70s early 80s Fenders were produced in Japan, They are still available for private import (purchase) through Ishibashi-music. Materials and quality that rival the American Standard.
Fender American - USA obviously - Generally considered the top of the Fender line. I have heard some occational issues with quality control, but nothing major. The biggest question here is, is the 2 - 3x price increase over a standard worth the cost.
To echo PH, go try them. I own a Deluxe Tele, and an American Gibson. To be honest if I didn't get lucky on a used Gibson, I'd probably own a Korean made, American Setup Epiphone.
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Post by UnklMickey on Apr 6, 2006 9:21:35 GMT -5
hey Ron, that's a ton of great information in a small space. +1 the only thing that i differ with IMHO, is: ...To be honest if I didn't get lucky on a used Gibson, I'd probably own a Korean made, American Setup Epiphone. the Epi headstocks turn me off sooooooooo much that i'd have no choice but to find a used Gibby. unk
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Post by Runewalker on Apr 7, 2006 0:08:43 GMT -5
I've read that when CBS sold Fender that they kept the Fullerton factory and that the new owners had to outsource all production to Fender Japan until they had built or refurbished a different factory. This would have been '84 or '85 --- awe hlll let me go look for it .... In 1984 CBS decided to get out of the musical instrument business and sold Fender to an investment group led by Bill Schultz, the incumbent President of Fender Musical Instruments. The Fullerton factory was not part of the deal and US production ceased in February 1985. Towards the end of that year a new factory was established at nearby Corona, but for a while the 'new' Fender Musical Instruments Corporation (FMIC) pretty much relied upon Japanese production. In fact it has been estimated that as many as 80% of the guitars sold in the US between late 1984 and mid-86 were sourced from Fender Japan. freespace.virgin.net/john.blackman4/history.htmI have one of these that I traded a build for. That was a pretty good deal. What I notice is that yes the machining is superb, finish, all that. But the thing I notice most is the wood density. The maple neck is harder, heavier and more dense than many of the modern components I run across. The body is nearly as heavy as a Les Paul. When I got it, someone had talked a previous owner into one of Wolf's favs, the Dimarzio X2N, a monster of a pup, way over the top for this elegant instrument. Pulled it and put in a temp that gets things back in control .... well Ok only slightly, but it at least has alnicos. I love playing this guitar. Just got off it in fact. The feel is warm, a little smoothly slick, and substantive. Being a sample of one, this portrayal does not address the whole Nationalistic question here. But it is important to remember that American production quality suffered in a number of industries, including guitars. Fender was shamed back into devoting themselves back to quality by the Japanese, as was Gibson post Norlin. While there are definitive quality aspects to the different models that focus on rendering and materials, much of this is also driven by market segmentation. Fender and Gibson both have executed brand extension strategies for the cradle to grave market preferences and resources. So yes, labor is less expensive in Mexico and Asia (not necessarily Japan), but many of these factories have the same equipment and playbook. There may be slack in the inspection filters or flaw acceptance rates, or sampling rates. There may be compromises in wood quality. There is always the poly vs lacquer, new tech vs old persnickety and expensive tech. There are remarkable values in the Korean and Chinese instruments. Some of the increased cost in American instruments is increase labor, but also less productivity. A broad swath of American, vs Mexican, vs Asian will be full of exceptions to the rule. That's where the little pieces of heaven are for us. RW
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Post by flateric on Apr 8, 2006 15:06:31 GMT -5
The Squier Affinity series are Chinese-built. Maybe they also make them in Indonesia? Interesting to see Jap mfr really rising in price now, and followed by Korean now that Chinese mfr has filled their shoes as the bottom-end on quality/price. However, still a lot of basically sound and astonishinglky low-priced instruments now available out of China - reasonable quality instruments have never been so affordable. Great for more people to have access to a good instrument within their budget. Just got to make sure you don't get a duff one. Korean quality is now very high, from what I have seen. This whole thing about USA mfr, I'm very cynical. I think the big F & G guys are still counting a lot on the fact that the emotional need to buy 'proper US', for whatever reason, is still so strong that it helps support the higher prices. If I had £900 spare to buy a 'proper US' strat I'd buy a mexican and spend the remaining £450 on something else. I can't get sentimental about perceived higher U.S. quality as I think it is now a myth.
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Post by guitardoode on Apr 12, 2006 5:52:59 GMT -5
hey Ron, the Epi headstocks turn me off sooooooooo much that i'd have no choice but to find a used Gibby. unk I've played an epi Les paul and a gibby version and i didnt see much difference except the gibson squished my phone in my pocket, both had really niiice tones but i though the headstocks were the same
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Post by flateric on Apr 12, 2006 10:52:31 GMT -5
Only the older jap-made epi's of the 80's and early 90's have the same headstock shape of their more expensive Gibson sisters. The later ones out of Korea and China had to adopt their own shape, a similar but recognisably different version of the gibson theme that the US parent insisted on as a brand protection/recognition thing.
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Post by UnklMickey on Apr 12, 2006 12:28:38 GMT -5
hey Guitardoode,
"i didnt see much difference except the gibson squished my phone in my pocket"
those Gibsons squish anything in your pocket. especially your wallet!
Flateric,
thanks for clearing that up, on the variations of the Epi headstocks.
it's obvious now that Guitardoode must have been talking about an Epi from that vintage, and not the clipped corner headstock that turns me off.
unk
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Post by guitardoode on Apr 13, 2006 11:28:28 GMT -5
it could have been, i recall playing it in asecond hand store ;D I still want to try out a seven stringed les paul though, sadly i cant find any of them except Ebay :-( and they're epi.
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Post by inducedblues on Apr 17, 2006 21:09:18 GMT -5
Let's not forget that US made guitars have a higher resale value than their foreign made counterparts.
The fact is that foreign made guitars are cheaper because they are made where the labor costs are cheaper and the materials they use are also cheaper as well. However, it is my opinion that you can find great sounding, well made guitars from places like Korea and Japan. Indonesia and China are bottom of the barrel. Made in Mexico is hit or miss really.
But where and how it was made is no substitute for a good setup, good tuning and good PLAYING after all and well then there's the amp as well.
As an american, I fall into the trap of wanting US made products too, hell, it's an american guitar company that's making the axe it should be an US made guitar right? Well people also have to learn that it's the individual guitar that counts and not some kind of american snobbery against aisan or mexican made guitars just because they are not made here.
If it plays well, sounds good buy it. You could save some money and still rip it up.
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Post by mlrpa on Apr 18, 2006 0:45:53 GMT -5
I myself, am a proud American, and the LAST thing I would buy is a new Fender or Gibson! I'll be the first to admit that I hate strats. In the past 10 years, I've found 3 that I would own. (Teles, on the otherhand, I've always loved. Go figure.) I don't think what Fender charges for the "Made in the USA" label is worth it. $900 for a guitar that hums? come on, be real. I've seen $300 Ibanez's that sounded, played, and felt much better, and were made by "Indonesian Slave Labor." As for Gibsons, I am saddened by the lack of quality coming from once the worlds premier guitar maker. I truley believe that the only reason people buy Gibson, is the name. GIVE ME JAPANESE, OR GIVE ME DEATH!
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Post by Runewalker on Apr 20, 2006 10:41:58 GMT -5
I've been pondering this idea against the backdrop of the Gibson factory tour I took in Feb.
I was thrilled to see all of the workstations and processes, and the surprising amount of hand guided work. I understand with all that hand labor why there is an inherent high cost (which is separate from pricing -- how much is that worth? How much will you pay? Oh.).
However, fundamentally, while skilled labor, it was still labor. Many of the Gibson workers did not have much more than a high school education, if that. And with America's demand for higher wages it is impossible to ignor that lower cost labor produces the opportunity for lower priced goods. I also saw a lot of processes that could be improved with more modern CNC maching. Hand rendering introduces variablity. There was a lot of wastage at the factory, discarded shells, fudge up bindings, dropped bods, etc. So while the marketplace buzzes on 'hand built" it was impossible not to notice opportunities for increased efficiency, quality, consistency and improved productivity.
We have to remember that American mfg in the 70s was arrogant and self satisfied, and had contempt for the consumer. Subsequently, when the American Demming taught the Japanese statistical process control and quality assurance ... and unlike American mfg., the Japanese actually listened and embraced quality and efficiency ... and subsequently handed American mfg. their @ss in a sling, trouncing them in the marketplace .... That the science of quality mfg. is well trodden, and exportable. Any mfg, irrespective of origin, who buys the right capital equipment, uses quality raw materials, exerts standard quality control processes and practices, then uses cheap labor to execute is going to produce comparable and competitive products. In that view origin is immaterial. American guitar mfg (Made in the USA) have all the same ingrediants and invariably higher labor costs.
So this whole country of origin discussion equated with quality is spurious. Quality is inspectable, tactically discernible and hearable --- yet extremely variable in price.
As a value oriented player, I am forced to choose selected quality and attractive price over the mystique of origin.
While this may be heresy (therefore I like it even more) it falls more in the righteous crusade of "Myth Busting."
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Post by inducedblues on Apr 20, 2006 11:20:43 GMT -5
Runewalker you are very wise indeed.
I agree that the desire for american made guitars has more to do with the subjective perception of superior quality and nationalistic snobbery than the actual quality of the end product, the guitar and it's sound.
In the end, it's really all in the eye and the ear of the beholder, I know people who have bought Epiphone Les Pauls and ridicule those who spend more than a thousand dollars on a real Gibson because of the similarity in quality.
Then there are those who ridicule the Epiphone Les Paul players because "it's not a real Les Paul and it's not a real Gibson."
Same thing with Japanese/Korean strats vs. American made ones.
It all comes down to what the player wants to hear and/or own and how the player wants to be perceived.
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Post by RandomHero on Apr 27, 2006 1:38:38 GMT -5
Amen to RW. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't play American, Korean, Chinese, Mexican, or what-have-you guitars...
...I play -good- guitars.
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Post by Ripper on Apr 27, 2006 2:55:01 GMT -5
Good one Randomhero!...well done. A good guitar is where you find it, it doesnt matter where its made. Amen.
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Post by ChrisK on May 30, 2006 22:19:21 GMT -5
I would like to point out that Mexico IS part of America (as in North, South, and central).
"Mexican" Fenders are made in Mexico by Mexican (Americans) out of parts that are often made in the U.S. factory(s). "American" Fenders are made in America (the U.S.) by U.S. n's (Americans) and Mexican's (Americans) out of parts that aren't all necessarily made in America (the U.S.).
The U.S. Fenders are usually upscale in parts, form, and fit, that's all (isn't that enough?). Branding is.
Fender went back into U.S made guitars solely because the market (aka 'boomers) wanted "Amer'can made geetars". The had originally planned during the acquisition to have ALL Fenders made abroad (which just might explain why they didn't buy the factory also, OK, the guitar industry WAS in the toilet at the time, and they weren't flush with cash, and CBS may not have offered it anyway).
The Mexican made Fenders are OK. I have a Deluxe Nashville Power Tele (ok, the deluxe theme as mentioned) that is pretty good. Some are phenomenal.
I've never found a Squire that I wanted (or wanted to try, ok, so I'm a boomer).
I have two American (as in U.S) Deluxe Strats that are real nice in materials, tone, and setup. Some are pedestrian at best. I have built Strat copies that sound better than most U.S. Deluxes.
I like some of the Japanese Fenders, but the necks are too narrow and thin for my hands.
I don't have a Fender U.S. Tele, I've not found one that I really liked the tone of and can build a much better one for the same coin.
I have a Korean made PRS SE that is wonderful (especially for the under $400 tag).
Don't get me started on Gib$on..... (Although I do have a rather excellent SG faded.)
The point is that anyone can make a good (or bad) guitar regardless of where it's done. Merit is.
And, let's not bad mouth China, they already hold about 1/3 of our national debt. Future is.
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