CHIMING TUBES

[GuyaGuy]

i have an all-tube combo made by acoustic control corporation; it's basically a "lawsuit" mesa copy. (allegedly, a mesa employee went to acoustic and took the schematic with him...) the amp is pretty fender-ish clean, lotsa gain when dirty. i really dig the amp but would like just a little more chime, more bell-tones, harmonic zing, etc.

it has 6L6's (stock) and i was thinking about switching to EL84s, as they are supposed to be full of chime. i've played the peavey classics, which apparently have the EL84s in the power amp, and they're pretty close to the sound i'm looking for. but i'd like to keep the acoustic.

any thoughts? has anyone put EL84's into their mesa combo or into a similar amp?

[GuyaGuy]

oops. just noticed that there's an AMP section in the "GN boards" section. feel free to transfer this thread if you want, mr. moderator.

[RandomHero]

Thanks for pointing that out, I might not have noticed!

For clarification to future readers, -this- Amps board is about fixing and tweaking your amps, the one under Gear Reviews is for telling about different amps you've used, or asking others for their opinions on them!

[GuyaGuy]

now that i think of it, let me hear from anybody who has EL84s in their fender combos too. i'm sure it would be similar as my acoustic is based on mesa, which in turn is based on fender.

[Trey]

I have a Carvin Bel Air which is EL84 based. It has the shimery Fenderish cleans I think your looking for, and I beleive it's in large part due to the EL84s. EL84s are lower power tubes though so you will get breakup at a lower volume than you are probably used to.

Also consider changing out the V1 and maybe V2 preamp tubes, as they also have a ton of effect one the overall sound of the amp.(really the preamp tubes do more for your tone than the power tubes, so that's often the first place you should start tweaking)

[dinis64]

I bought some of the "tube converters" that will convert 6L6's to EL84's. I now have two EL84 amps. I guess that's one way to see if you like the EL84 sound, but they really aren't cheap. THD makes the "Yellow Jackets" and Groove Tubes makes "Substi-tubes". I don't know if you're interested in this or not, but it is a neat concept. They also convert your amp to "full class A operation", supposedly. See this link here if your interested - [urlhttp://www.groovetubes.com/product.cfm?Product_ID=1778 ][/url].

They do lower the power of your amp. There is also a PDF file at the bottom of the page which is a review of the two brands.

[dinis64]

And EL84's do sound more chimey. I didn't want to say anything before because it will sound like I'm pushing something, but I don't use those converters anymore, if your interested.

[ChrisK]

I'm glad that you posted here. Haven't been on the forum lately, sad to hear of John's "difficulties". I've always enjoyed guitarnuts since it's more real and helpful to me and others than some other ones.

I just (Saturday) picked up a Mesa MK IV specifically to fool around w/ tubes 'n stuff. (Being an electrical engineer, I mean seriously fool around.) Haven't done any tube-based design since the late 60's, but maybe an old dog can learn old tricks.

The MK IV allows the use of EL-34's (2, class A stage only) and 6V6's (four only). Want to try the adapters for EL-84's as I've sorta liked the Blues Junior sound and I have to wear my shooting ear protectors when I play the Mesa anywhere near loud (85 watts@5% distortion, ~~150 watts at full distortion).

I believe that the EL-84's (and EL-34's) are indeed more chimey than the American 6L6 and 6V6 (the Marshall sound). Some of the early Marshall's were "exact" copies of Fender amps (except for the tubes, transformers, etc), but "seem" to sound "just slightly" different.

Seems like what dinis64 sez is the way to go (or try).


dinis64,

I might be interested.....

[GuyaGuy]

dinis64: i've heard good things about those converters, but i believe they dramtically reduce power.

trey: you mention that "EL84s are lower power tubes though so you will get breakup at a lower volume than you are probably used to." are EL84s the reason that vox AC30s break up so soon? i might not mind a slight power loss, though. like chris k's mark iv, my acoustic is small but very, very loud so some loss wouldn't hurt. not sure i'd like the early breakup though.
are there any preamp tubes to look for if i want a buckets of chime?

[Trey]

GuyaGuy said:

trey: you mention that "EL84s are lower power tubes though so you will get breakup at a lower volume than you are probably used to." are EL84s the reason that vox AC30s break up so soon? i might not mind a slight power loss, though. like chris k's mark iv, my acoustic is small but very, very loud so some loss wouldn't hurt. not sure i'd like the early breakup though.
are there any preamp tubes to look for if i want a buckets of chime?

AC30s breakup sooner due in part to the EL84s but also because they don't use negative feedback ciruits(the lack of NFB is the main reason AC30s sound like AC30s)

As far as preamp tubes go, each brand has it's own charateristics, but each will sound diffrent depending on the amp. I currently have a Phillps NOS in the V1 position of my Carvin and a Grooves Tube Mullard reissue in the V2 spot, both sound divine(but they are alittle pricey). There are many 12AX7 tubes to choose from and they are all relativly cheap(most are around $10), I would just pickup a few from a good online retailor and try each out and see which gives you the tone your looking for. may come to find out that none do, but if you still have the stock tubes in there I bet your sound will be improved by quality tubes.

[GuyaGuy]

thanks for the suggestions. i think i'll try out the EL84s. as stated the amp has plenty of volume and headroom (for the most part) so a little loss shouldn't hurt. if that doesn't tickle me pink i'll go shopping for preamp tubes!

[Trey]

GuyaGuy said:

thanks for the suggestions. i think i'll try out the EL84s. as stated the amp has plenty of volume and headroom (for the most part) so a little loss shouldn't hurt. if that doesn't tickle me pink i'll go shopping for preamp tubes!

I think JJs and GT EL84s are the best sounding(save NOs, but who wants to pay that much for a single tube?), stay away from the Stoveks(sp) though. They sound god awful, have a short life, and are prone to rattles...

[dtarrance]

Kind of off topic from the amps you're referring to, but I have a Mesa 20/20 DynaWatt Stereo Power Amp in my rack rig. It uses 4 EL-84's (2/side), and it REALLY sings!

I've tried EL34, E34L, and 6L6 poweramps, but the EL84 tone just sticks in my head every time I switch back. It's all a matter of personal preference, but for me, EL84's are where it's at!!

[emerlin]

Count me in as an EL84 nut. I have 3 Peavey Bravos (25 Watt) and am always keeping my eyes open for a cheap project Peavey Classic 50 or 30. The Classic 50 head and 212 are great EL84 amps, but I've not had the money to get one until recently.

EL84s are plenty chimey and they grind pretty good as well.

[GuyaGuy]

sounds like there's quite a few EL84-lovers out there.

i just found out that those peavey classics are CLASS A amps like the vox amps, which are most associated w/ EL84s. i know class A contributes to early breakup. so does it also contribute to that chimey harmonics sound or is that more tube-related?

[Trey]

GuyaGuy said:

sounds like there's quite a few EL84-lovers out there.

i just found out that those peavey classics are CLASS A amps like the vox amps, which are most associated w/ EL84s. i know class A contributes to early breakup. so does it also contribute to that chimey harmonics sound or is that more tube-related?

I'm 99% sure that Peavey Classics aren't Class A, they're Class A/B. The only true Class A amps you'll find are very expensive botique amps(Matchless comes to mind)

And the amp class has less to do with the overall tone than most would lead you to believe. It's more about the tubes and the overall design of the amp.

[GuyaGuy]

Trey said:

I'm 99% sure that Peavey Classics aren't Class A, they're Class A/B. The only true Class A amps you'll find are very expensive botique amps(Matchless comes to mind)

And the amp class has less to do with the overall tone than most would lead you to believe. It's more about the tubes and the overall design of the amp.

yeah, all of the class A amps that i've played (incl. a matchless) were great, but it doesn't seem like the amp class would affect the tone THAT much--certainly not to such an extent that i'd pay an extra $1500 for a class A! but i'm no amp expert so i thought throw the question out there.

as for peavey classics, i'm just going on info in TOTALLY GUITAR by tony bacon, et al. of course he could be wrong. i thought the info sounded fishy, but

[dinis64]

The Classic series are definitely A/B. But in my humble opinion, they rock.

I thought The AC30 was famous for being "All Class A"?

[dtarrance]

dinis64 said:

<snip>...I thought The AC30 was famous for being "All Class A"?

Apparently this has been brought up a lot of times in the past. I read an article a while ago about it, but I can't find the link. A simple google search turned up this page, which after reading it, goes in to a lot more depth than the previous article I mentioned!

Here ya go...

www.aikenamps.com/VoxAC30classA_2.html

[GuyaGuy]

hey, thanks for the link. due to the discussion here, i was just about to look for a definition of class A!

[emerlin]

Trey said:

I'm 99% sure that Peavey Classics aren't Class A, they're Class A/B. The only true Class A amps you'll find are very expensive botique amps(Matchless comes to mind)

And the amp class has less to do with the overall tone than most would lead you to believe. It's more about the tubes and the overall design of the amp.

The Classic 20 was a Class A amp. The rest of the Classic series is AB.

[dinis64]

The Classic 20 was a Class A amp. The rest of the Classic series is AB.

The Classic 20 was also cathode bias and the rest are not. Does that have anything to do with it being class A. More specifically, if I did the cathode bias mod on my classic 30, does it make my classic 30 class A? I'd bet it doesn't.

I haven't read the above link, yet. I have read some on the Class A discussion but I don't remember it that well.

[Trey]

dinis64 said:

The Classic 20 was also cathode bias and the rest are not. Does that have anything to do with it being class A. More specifically, if I did the cathode bias mod on my classic 30, does it make my classic 30 class A? I'd bet it doesn't.

Not hat won't make your Classic 30 class A. More importantly, why would you want your Classic 30 to be Class A? It has NO noticable effect on tone, and when you do crank you Classic 30 it already basically goes into Class A type operation...

[dinis64]

Not hat won't make your Classic 30 class A. More importantly, why would you want your Classic 30 to be Class A? It has NO noticable effect on tone

I didn't say I wanted it to be class A. I don't care if it's class G if it's got the tone I want.

[Trey]

dinis64 said:

I didn't say I wanted it to be class A. I don't care if it's class G if it's got the tone I want.

Exactly, that's what I like to hear


Is your Classic 30 storck or have you done any mods to it at all? I've heard alot of stock Classic 30, but none with any of the mods that are floating around the net...