Replacement Speaker

[andy]

While I realise this may not be relevant to many, I thought I would ask anyway...

Now, I'm pondering getting a solid state Fender as a spare/knockabout amp, something like a Frontman65R or FM65R. Even though the tone will have all the drawbacks (and benefits, of course!) of a full solid state signal path, replacing the no-doubt cheapo speaker will affect some improvement, partly through quality, partly through the choice of a driver better suited to my own tonal preference. If I were to bother doing this, I would probably choose a fairly high powered Jensen, to keep to the classic Fender sound as closely as possible. So no questions there...

All I'm really asking is if anybody out there has any experience of sticking a decent speaker in a solid state combo of this sort (not just Fender), and whether the difference was marked or subtle- whether it really bought a cheap amp to life (like quality pickups in a Squier) or was just a waste of a good speaker.

[sumgai]

andy,

This is all subjective, of course. There are so many different "voicings" available, but worse, each of those "specially voiced" speakers will sound differently in any given cabinet, driven by any different amplifier.

The only consideration not up for discussion is that you maintain the same impedance. Failure to do so will either wreck your tone, or cause the amp to work harder than it was designed for, and possibly shorten its life, perhaps catastrophically. See the page below for more info on speaker impedances:
guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=Amps&action=display&thread=1150767138

I personally favor a Fender M-80, with a stock Fender (probably Eminence) 12" unit. The tone is 95% of what my FTR sounds like, although I hafta admit, I don't particularly like the tone on the "Gain" channel..... the controls are too limited for my taste. However, this channel does have buckets of distortion and sustain. I haul this thing out about 2/3 of the time I play out, it's loud enough, and has the tone I need most of the time. When I do play a critical venue, I trot out the FTR, or even better, out comes the Big Boy, my VG-88 and its attendant PA system. ;D

In short, a speaker will likely change the tone, but will it be 'better enough' to be worth the extra effort, not to mention the cash outlay? Only you can answer that one.

HTH



sumgai

[ux4484]

andy,

I've done it with my Fender FM212R. I first outboarded it to my 50 yr old cab with original (reconed) Jensen 12" SD's in it (2 8ohm in parallel match the 4 ohm rated impedance) it did sound much better than the stock set up, and gave a bit of leeway on controlling the volume on the low end (the stock speakers seem to go from barely audible to blasting on "2")....but alas as sumgai says the cab can make the difference. When I transferred the Jensen's to the Fender housing, they did not sound as rich as when they were in the original (old) cab, though they did sound better than the stock Fender speakers (especially at lower volumes), they also improved the operation of the reverb (more vibration I guess). The opposite is true as well, the Fenders sound better in the 50's cab then they did in the Fender housing (but not as good as the Jensen's in the old cab). It helps if you have something to test with before popping for replacement speakers. As sumgai says, the Fender SS clean channel is excellent, and the gain channel is passable, but not something you'll "love" (I like the gain 1 channel over the gain 2 channel).
I do love my Digitech through the Fender FM212R clean channel, I even pulled the reverb from most of my Digitech setups so I can use the amps more responsive (since the new speakers) reverb.
YMMV, but it may be worth the tinkering.

[newey]

I have a SS Fender, a "Frontman 25R", has a 10" 8Ω speaker that doesn't even say "Fender" on it. Indonesian made. The speaker seems to break up a bit low on the Vol. for my tastes, so I'm thinking a replacement is in order. I mean, this amp was all of $130 at MF so the stock speaker is probably nothing to write home about.

It's a great little amp for the $$ but I'd like to be able to use more gain on the clean channel without distortion. As Sumgai pointed out, the gain channel is not the greatest, but it definitely sounds like a Fender played clean- up to a point.

So. I'm looking for a decent replacement, don't want to be putting a $100 speaker in a $130 amp. And I'm limited by having only a 4.5" space between the chassis and the lower cabinet brace (which does not seem to be removable).

The two speakers I've seen on that there web thing which look like they're shallow enough to fit through there are a Jensen Mod series (about $45) or an Eminence, either the Delta Demon or Ragin' Cajun. (each is about $65).

Anyone with experience with either of these choices? Or alternatives?

[newey]

Well, my post above probably should have been on a new thread, as no one noticed/responded, so I forged on regardless and bought a Jensen Mod 10-35, mainly because it looked like it might fit.

And it very well might fit, but I'll never know because it is readily apparent that some cabinet destruction would need to occur to get the stock speaker out of there. After much knuckle-busting with a small ratchet to unbolt the original, no amount of manuvering will get it out without destroying the speaker or dismembering the cabinet. It's all glued together, no fasteners, and I'm not willing to start bashing on the cabinet. I'm convinced Indonesian robots built the cab around the pre-installed speaker.

So now I have a new Jensen speaker sitting here. I'm thinking I need to find or build a cab for it and just use it as an external speaker with the amp. There's no "speaker out" on the amp so I'll have to improvise a bit.

Another project . . .

[lpf3]

newey-
There's gotta be a way .

I don't know what your amp looks like , but isn't there some location on the cab ( like the back or even the bottom ) where you discreetly could cut out some wood & slip the old speaker out & the new one in ?

A jigsaw or roto zip should work for this . Yeah ?

You could leave it like that or fashion a " speaker access panel " easy enough & use screws so's it's removable .

Just thinkin' out loud -

lpf3

[newey]

lpf3-

Yeah, that's exactly what would need to be done. There's a lower brace about 4" wide that's glued and tolex covered that would need to be removed. or at least cut down some, to get the old speaker out.

Could be done, certainly, but as this is the amp I use daily, I'm leery of dismembering it. Afraid that I might rattle something loose internally by applying power tools, for one thing.

FWIW, if anyone else is contemplating a speaker change in one of these small Fender amps, be advised it's not a simple swap-out

[lpf3]

newey ,

I stopped by a Geetar Center today & checked out a Frontman 65 R , ( they didn't have a 25R ) , I'll assume the cabinet is made the same......

Are there four screws on top of your amp ? If so , this'll be easier than you thought

If you remove those screws that whole chassis will slide right out ( and right back in ) nice & neat .

That oughta give ya plenty of room. That bottom panel could be removed cleanly ( but that is kinda surgical ).

Removing that chassis looks plenty easy . Second opnions ?

Good luck - lpf3

[sumgai]

newey,

I think no one responded because the Forum software wasn't telling us that there were new postings to this thread! I just now noticed, for the first time this Monday morning, and you all know how often I log in here........

Anyhoo, the probable answer to your dilemma is that you'll need a very thin yet strong blade to act as a chisel - I tend to use a drywaller's blade for things like this. Drive it between that back panel and it's mounting brace, and separate the glue joint. When you're done, Elmer's Glue-All will be your friend...... a little dab'll do ya!

Now, if the panel itself is sitting in grooves, routed into the walls and/or floor of the cab, then you're screwed. Break it out, and plan on installing braces (with screws and glue) to those walls, and then building a new panel to be screwed in place.

Why have a panel in the first place? It's part of the sound - the reflections from the back of the speaker are kept bottled up for a time, before they finally get out to the atmosphere, and that's considered desirable. There's also the physical braking effect on the speaker's cone, that's another good thing. And finally, it gives you a place to store your cords. ;D

HTH




sumgai

[newey]

lpf-

If you remove those screws that whole chassis will slide right out

Well, if I knew that for sure based on someone else having done so, I'd give it a go. But I'm assuming that, in addition, the knobs will need to come off, the pots will need to be set free, etc. In short, a whole lotta dismembering goin' on. I'd rather try cutting down the brace and leave the electrons be.

And Sumgai's tips to do the brace removal are good, except . . .

Now, if the panel itself is sitting in grooves, routed into the walls and/or floor of the cab, then you're screwed

I'll guarantee this thing isn't dadoed, or even doweled. But tongue-and-groove . . .? That's possible, and that's been my worry here. So I guess I'm looking for encouragement from someone who's speaking from hands-on experience. Failing that, I'll guess I'll just have to grow some stones and go for it. Downside: It's my main amp. Upside: Hey, it was cheap anyway.

[sumgai]

newey,

What I meant was, they route a groove in a long board, cut it into the right-sized pieces, then assemble them with the panel in place. Presto! instant cabinet. And no tongues are harmed in the process.

I've occasionally found that on some of the really cheap amps, the back panel is made out of piece of particle board no more than 5/16" or even 1/4" thick. Such thin stock can sometimes be "flexed" enough to wiggle it out, but more than likely, it's a real tight fit - without enough room in the grooves, bending the panel like this will probably break it.

But then again, that's where you're at now, eh?

HTH



sumgai

[lpf3]

newey ,

I wouldn't want to steer ya wrong , but this is what I think. ( Note the word THINK ,ok? ) I looked at the picture of the 25R online & I believe it's the same cabinet as the one I saw at the store .

Also , I work for a production cabinet company serving the new construction biz' as a field super & in my adventures I assemble , disassemble , install , disect , repair, finish, touch-up , cuss at , & just about anything cabinet related you can think of .

These are new homes , & NOT amps but I betcha it's somethin' like this..............

If that ( now infamous ) back panel were dadoed into the sides it would probably be "inset" about a quarter inch & yours is flush . ( as sumgai pointed out , it's a good way to assemble a box but I don't think yours is made that way ) My thought is that it's glued ( sparingly ) with a few narrow gauge staples shot in from the sides & the bottom , & then covered in Tolex.( To remove this , cut the tolex with a razor knife first , then follow sumgai's advice & voila ! )

BUT - (stay with me here ) This Tolex covered box is then sent to another room to be fitted with it's brain , speaker , & trim ( wouldn't want sawdust in the electronics ) , Next comes the speaker & front grille cloth panel & then the already assembled , fully self-contained ( knobs , pots , etc. ) chassis is scewed in , all in one unit . Doesn't make any production sense to do it any other way .

Try this. Hold the chassis with 1 hand while you loosen the screws & see if the whole thing doesn't free right up . This way you're not committed & if ya don't like it just tighten the screws back up.

Dude , ;D If you can wire pots & pickups ( I saw that Esquire ) you can do this. Just let the Force guide you ;D

-lpf3

[lpf3]

Hey , newey,

Me again. Hey I just reread my last post & maybe I didn't make the point I meant to make .

That cabinet and the amp chassis are assembled totally independent of each other , and screwed together near the end of the line .

You won't have to remove your knobs or pots etc. to get it out.
Well , maybe the speaker wire ;D

good luck

lpf3

[andy]

Sumgai and ux4484, thanks for chipping in with your advise- I have just realised I didn't thank you at the time.

A house move is rendering all thoughts of guitar related projects defunct for now, apart from selling up whatever else I can bear to part with, but someday I might just look back into a little solid state amp with a craking speaker.

And Newey, I have taken amps out of their housings by the method mentioned by lpf3. It really is as easy as it sounds- the whole amp chassis should come free in one piece. The only trouble I had was when I left the plug in the mains that time...

[newey]

Thanks all, for the multiple suggestions. I now have 2 votes for removing the amp chassis and one for removing the brace. I'm still leaning towards Sumgai's suggestion of removing the brace. although it's not a piece of 5/16" particle board, it's like a 1X2, probably tolex-covered OSB I would guess. But I suspect it's just stapled and glued, and would probably come out as suggested.

I'll take a long hard look at the amp chassis tonight, maybe that would be the easier way to go and I'm just overthinking this or overly worried about nothing.

The amp was an Xmas present from my wife a couple of years ago so I don't dare screw it up or I'd be missing more than just the amp . . .

[andy]

Apr 22, 2008 14:32:34 GMT -5 newey said:

I'd be missing more than just the amp . . .

...also easily removed if you know the right screws...

[ux4484]

I'd go with your passed on thought newey, and put a line out jack on the amp and if you have an old (other) cab, play through that. That's what I was doing with my Crate Bass amp and mini Fender Dynatouch for some time. It'll give you a better feel if it's worth it to bother putting a better speaker in the 25R. Heck, it's only $1.75 for the jack, and you could borrow a cab from someone to start with.
I seem to remember MF having some fairly decent 2x12 and 4x12 cabs for as low as $200 recently. It's not too late to take back that Jensen.
I'm always seeing used cabs sans amps at GC regularly and for not much $$$.

A 1/4 inch Mono line out with single switch is available at Radio Shack, and contrary to my last post on jacks, can be wired as a switched line out jack (opens the internal speaker connection when jacked).

[newey]

Ux- Too late for that- the patient has already undergone surgery. And since I seem to be the guinea pig for this, here's how it was done:



Here's the patient (anterior and posterior views) in pre-op. Looking at lpf's and Andy's recommendation to drop the chassis, I'm not feeling it. I don't see any way that the control plate drops out the back with the chassis. Also, in addition to the 4 screws on the top mentioned by lpf, there's 2 more small ones, one on each side of the cabinet, of uncertain function.

I'm going after that lower brace, which is actually more like 1/2"X4", not 1X2 as I posted above (from the office, by memory- I was only off by a factor of 2! )


Peeled the Tolex back, but only partially. Yep, it's particle board. And Sumgai's suggested putty knife isn't doing squat- This thing is really put together solidly! Time for the tools of mass destruction!

Application of hacksaw to the center of the brace, taking about a 5" slice out of the center. This should be just enough to get the speaker out, while still leaving solid bracing in the corners, which is where the cradle of my amp stand contacts the amp, so I need some weight-bearing capability there.

Out with the old . . .

And in with the new. I used gorilla glue to put the piece back in place and glued the Tolex back over it. The Tolex isn't perfect by any means but not too bad.

We'll see how well the glue sets up, I may have to install a pair of flat metal brackets from the inside to hold it in place better.

Anyway, got out the Tele, plugged 'er back into the AC and fired it up. Instantly, a dramatic difference for the better. Clearly, a more efficient speaker, I'm getting substantially more output at the same guitar/amp settings. And the highs are much crisper, while the bass is a little less clean but pleasantly punchy.

Switching on the gain, a revelation! I can use quite a bit more oomph on the gain without muddiness. I'd pretty much given up on the gain channel on this amp, it's still not great but may have more useable crunch now.

All said, I'm very happy with this mod after a (limited) run-through. I do detect a little bit of new cabinet resonance, which may just be from more output, but I think I will secure the patched piece better with a screw-on bracket just to be sure. And, if I ever need to get the speaker out again, it all can be unbuttoned again if need be.

[lpf3]

Nice work newey ,
I'm glad the whole thing came together ( well , apart , then together ;D ) for you.

Just as glad ya got the desired results outta the new speaker .

Again , good job
-lpf3

[sumgai]

newey,

I have to vote "Good Job!" too.

But you're gonna crap raise your Chinese laundry bill when I tell you that the chassis is indeed all one piece. Just remove those six screws, disconnect the speaker wires, and it'll drop out nice and neat.

You hadn't mentioned that this was one of Fender's slant chassis', or I woulda known right away - sorry 'bout that.

Now that you've 'modified' the cabinet, I'd go the rest of the way, and make it more-or-less like the rest of Fender's line, and most other cabinets - remove the whole bleepin' piece, install a pair of 1x2 braces to the sides (dark screws, just like the chassis, but meant for wood......), and then lay up a fresh panel that you've Tolexed yourself. It'll look better, and be more easily taken out of the way when you next get the itch to try a new speaker.

And it won't hurt the resale value, either.

HTH



sumgai

[andy]

Yup, good handywork!

It's always nice to have a run of work-in-progress photos like that too. It makes me realise just how much I like to see a successfully upgraded piece of kit!

Thats pretty much the exact upgrade I was looking to do, though perhaps on a model with a larger speaker, so it's cool to get your post-op opinions too.

Thanks.

[newey]

Thanks, guys-

I needed the encouragement to undertake this. It's a bit daunting when you start hacking away and the reverb springs start making an unholy racket, you think "Gawd, what am I doing to this poor thing".

After I took the last photo, I worked the Tolex down a bit into the glue so it actually looks a lot better than in the photo- hard to tell it was cut unless you look pretty closely.

In retrospect, I picked the speaker based largely on what I thought would fit without cabinet destruction. If I had known going in that I was going to have to dismember it anyway, I would have had more choices as to the replacement. But overall, I'm happy with it.

Now that you've 'modified' the cabinet, I'd go the rest of the way,

Long term, that's a good plan but for now it's fine.

And it won't hurt the resale value, either

LOL. Yeah, I'm anticipating that, 30 years from now, everyone will be gaga over these Indonesian-made Fender SS practice amps, and I'll be able to sell it to finance a year of assisted living.

[ux4484]

Wow, I'm surprised it's a spring reverb, the 15R and Champ versions have electronic reverb.

Resale value, you mean after you play it into the ground?

Looks good newey. Just a note on that gorilla glue: It is probably stronger than the original board was, and is SO hard that it's probably the cause of the cab resonance you're hearing now. If any of the glue is on the bottom frame of the amp, you'll be taking more tolex off if you remove it (weather you want to or not). You may want to xacto a line along the bottom edge of the lip before removing it so you don't pull it off the bottom of the cabinet.

[andy]

Newey,

I am back on the wagon with this (possibly). I was planning to go for a larger model, but seeing that the Frontman 25 has a 10" speaker, I could always use a Celestion I have had knocking around for some time. Before I take the plunge, could you give me an idea of the sort of volume the amp puts out? Are you just using it for home practise, or do you reckon it would be any good in a band setting?

I had a 100watt 1x12 Solid state Fender some time back which, if played in the right direction, could probably kill someone, so 25 watts of that should have no trouble, but I'd rather make sure before turning up to a job and not getting heard/getting heard all distorted and nasty!

Thanks, A

[andy]

Ok, so I've finally started the engines!

In a (possibly) rash move, I went against my usual 'small and light is best' policy and picked up the 100w 2x12 Frontman 212r. For the price it seemed a good idea at the time, although I may kick myself next time a want to take a train to a gig!

I've already bought a secondhand Fender 'blue label' speaker on Ebay, at a pretty good price. It comes from a Twin, one of the the 'love it or hate it' red knobbed ones, so I'm a little nervous as to the results I'll get. I have no idea of the specifications either, so it will be hard to balance with another model, but what the hey, the experiment is part of the fun. With any luck it will give the classic clean Fender tone, but with a bit more character than the stock model. I'm keeping an eye out for a Celestion to pair it with, to fill out the mids and smooth the highs a little, so I'll give progress reports as I do it.

For the record, the sound as stock isn't half bad, the cleans are obviously nice and clean and the sound leans toward the brighter side, as do many of the Fender classics. The tone controls with solid state Fenders in general tend to be very effective, so an appraisal of any particular tonal bias is less useful, as the frequencies almost have a volume control each, rather than the usual interactive tonal 'persuasion' on some valve amps- that said there is less booming bass than I expected, a dipped mid setting works well for 'Twin' type tones, and the treble is perhaps a bit shrill in places, though usable.
I won't spend long on the drive channels, as they are best summed up as 'not really up to much', but they are not unpleasant to the ear as such. There is a strong mid-bias to them, and the tone controls have much less effect here, the gain is not massive, topping out around the AC/DC / ZZTop zone. The very lowest gain settings are actually quite nice and responsive, but still suffer from a lack of bass and sparkle compared to the clean channel.
I expected to use pedals for overdrive, and this presents my only tone 'problem' with the amp. While my overdrive/booster sounds good (Digitech Bad Monkey- don't make that face! It sounds alright!) the Boss DS1 I was using for distortion makes the most unbelievable fizzing sizzle now. I had gained passable results with it through other amps, but the full range response of the speakers seems to be open to too much of that high frequency stuff. Even the distorted sounds of some great amps sound this way through a 'pre-amp out' so I am assuming that the speakers are more like P.A. speakers than guitar speakers. That would be borne out by the fact that my Pod sounded great through it with the speaker sim on.

Either way, I think this should definitely turn out to be an upgrade in terms of using the amp as a tone generator in and of itself, even if I find the Twin speaker to have been an ill gamble.

I'll keep you posted...

[newey]

Andy-

All of your comments about your new "big boy" Frontman could equally apply to my small one. As I noted earlier in this thread, the speaker change made a big difference in the usability of the gain channel. Further experimentation over the last couple of months with it, and I have discovered that a very nice "clean with a smidgen of crunch" works nicely with my Tele. Before, I almost never used the gain settings except for the occasional Angus Young fantasy. I now use the gain settings a lot, but with the gain just barely cracked open and about "2" on the 'verb. This gives just a hint of crunch to the chords and nice bell-like sustain on the lead bits.

As far as using mismatched speakers, you're the GN2 guinea pig on that. I would imagine it would only be a problem if one of the 2 was considerably more efficient than the other, such that you only really heard the one.

[andy]

Jun 22, 2008 9:36:36 GMT -5 newey said:

As far as using mismatched speakers, you're the GN2 guinea pig on that. I would imagine it would only be a problem if one of the 2 was considerably more efficient than the other, such that you only really heard the one.

Yes, I can't imagine that the average 'on paper' difference in specs will translate into a massive difference in volume, but as I don't know how sensitive that Fender speaker is, I won't be able to learn much on that front! My only worry is that it might sound a bit brittle and not smooth the tone out enough. Time will tell!