koko276
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 9
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Post by koko276 on Jun 13, 2007 7:36:28 GMT -5
(moved to Effects Units Forum by sumgai)
What is the difference between a niose suppressor and a noise gate? Which is best in which circumstance? I run several effects pedals, and a 100 watt head that is a bit noisy. It is a peavey windsor, I contacted Peavey about the noise, and they said it would take about 30 hours of use for the amp to quiet down, but I do use several pedals as I have said.
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leadfingers
Meter Reader 1st Class
2018 Trivia Contest Winner
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Post by leadfingers on Jun 30, 2007 18:57:06 GMT -5
OK, unless I'm way off base on this, I would think they are pretty much the same. As I know it, the Noise gate is a device that you set a threshold at for a certain volume. The thing cuts off any signal output if the signal or noise is just below the threshold you set. At least that is how the ones I've dealt with work.
A noise suppressor, I would think, would behave the same way. Noise Gate, sets the limit you allow. A suppressor , well, it may just reduce the noise, not just completely cut it off. If that is the case, then you may want to go with the suppressor as it would allow the notes to fade out a bit longer for a more natural sound. That is one thing I don't like about gates. If the person using it is not careful with how they set it, the music, especially if recorded, gets cut off too fast and it sounds odd.
Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.
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blank
Apprentice Shielder
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Post by blank on Jul 16, 2007 14:00:55 GMT -5
The Boss Noise Suppressor is just a Noise Gate. But a suppressor can be something that reduces hiss, but generally not for guitar applications. The MXR Smart Gate does something like this (3 modes).
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Post by duosonicboy on Jul 23, 2007 1:14:28 GMT -5
I kinda don't believe in noise gates - they always sound too "on/off". Plus, if it's really the amp that's noisy, it won't change things much. Try checking all of yr pedals individually to see if any one or two are more responsible then others - then SHIELD, SHIELD, SHIELD!
I usually find that if the background noise is constant, you stop noticing it after a bit. If you have a gate, or a guitar with hum canceling in just 1 or 2 positions, I think the noise becomes more noticeable when it does show up.
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Post by benitosuave on Jul 27, 2007 15:15:34 GMT -5
Before you blame the amp, start to blame the guitar. If the hum reduces when you mute the strings, it is the guitar's fault. If the hum is there when nothing it plugged in to the amp it is the amps fault. If the hum is gone if you go straight from the guitar to the amp, then it is the pedals faults. Also check each component with a good cable. Avoid using curly cables unless you know why you are using it. If you are running through a PA, there may be some lights or other equipment using the same ground as the mixer that is causing hum.
If the pedals are to blame, try playing them without an adapter and use batteries instead. Also check your cables.
If the guitar is causing it, shield it.
If the amp is causing it, plug it in somewhere else and if that doesn't help, complain.
In general, keep your equipment in good shape, use good cables, distance yourself from the amp. Reduce the amount of electronics you are running. Plug lighting and other stuff into other grounds.
Use active noise reduction only as a last resort because it can remove some of the harmonic frequencies and rob nice equipment of good tone.
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Post by rabidgerry on Jun 21, 2008 19:45:39 GMT -5
Sorry to hi jack this thread, but I two get a bit of noise and hate the noise reduction process on offer by my Boss GT6 as it's unatutal.
I've sheilded my guitar
When I put my hand on strings the hum doesn't go away, when I plug into the amp I still get the noise
The noise is noticeable more at certain angles and will almost go away at other angles. Generally more angles held away from amp and pedal board give the hum, only a few diagonal angles give silence. No lights are on when this happens, doesn't seem to be worse when lights are on. Thought it might be neighbours tv through a wall possible 10ft away?
Any help would be great, feel a bit stupid asking this stuff incase it's obvious.
The noise is bareable, but I know I can get rid. I get it mostly with high gain stuff and chorus and wha all on.
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Post by D2o on Jun 21, 2008 22:12:53 GMT -5
Hi rabidgerry, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by noise - maybe the shielding wasn't done properly (no offense intended, of course) ... I don't suppose you happen to have any pictures? You didn't switch the wires to your output jack by any chance, did you? EDIT: Doink! My shortcut to this forum automatically takes me to the "15 most recent posts" view ( guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=recent ) and I saw that it was his first post and missed that it was not this thread's first post. I even missed his first key words "Sorry to hi jack this thread," .... "L" on my forehead right about now ... sorry about that. |
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 21, 2008 23:55:51 GMT -5
I read somewhere recently that the Boss NS2 includes some sort of filter meant to reduce 60Hz hum. And if the power supply in it is better regulated than any other you own, it might help alleviate some noise issues there. Otherwise, it's just a noise gate. If the pedals are to blame, try playing them without an adapter and use batteries instead. Also check your cables. Or try a better regulated power supply. Watch out for ground loops in daisy chained power supplies or between multiple adapters. +1 It's also important to maintain perspective. You'll never find a satisfactory way to eliminate all noise from your signal. Not if you care about the other (more important) aspects of your sound. Like, you know tone. Dynamics. Stuff like that. The best you can hope to do is reduce it, attempt to maximize your signal:noise ratio. |
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Post by andy on Jun 22, 2008 0:32:05 GMT -5
I contacted Peavey about the noise, and they said it would take about 30 hours of use for the amp to quiet down Did they??? The only reason that I could think that would work would be if the speakers break in a lot over that period, enough stop reproducing a significant amount of treble. Sounds unlikely though! Out of interest, did they give any details? As for the noise gate/suppressor, a gate chops all output when you are not playing, a suppressor probably reduces or cuts output at the most likely noise frequencies, at narrow enough bands not to affect tone too noticably, but enough to 'E.Q.' out hiss and hum. |
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Post by rabidgerry on Jun 22, 2008 5:58:12 GMT -5
I didn't take no photos unfortunately. I tested with a multimeter to make sure it all connected electrically.
Now don't laugh, but I put it onto the setting that only seems to work for me, and how I took that it was electrically consistent was:
I'd put one test lead of the multimeter at a point of the shielding, then the other test lead somewhere else, if it reacted it figured it must have made some sort of connection. So I did this at many places and joins and it all seemed to connect.
If have done the shielding thing wrong I will shoot myself!!! I used heavy un rippable embossing foil.
Had I switched the output wire like I did do once, the noise is constant and unbearable, so I new I had it right when I put ;em the other way around. When I first carried out this mod, I actually didn't understand the ground loop removing part completely.
I ended up removing all the wires from the pots, but I forgot about my capacitor tail. It was not until I read other versions of the "Quietening the Beast" that I realized one tiny wire was my problem.
When I did this is kinda, well was quiet, but not as much as I hoped, I would almost say it was back to how it was before I shielded.
One time I was playing at band practice and the guitar picked up some one downstairs singing through another p.a!! My guitar turned into a mega aerial which I never noticed before shielding.
May be I did something wrong? I only used a 250v capacitor? you can't get 400v cap's over here easily it seems. I think the shock protection may only be essential for playing outside of Europe. We have different plugs with three prongs over here which are earths. I just added the cap anyway.
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Post by andy on Jun 22, 2008 6:55:08 GMT -5
Hi rabidgerry,
Don't forget that chorus and wah both tend to add noise by their very nature, and high gain settings are serious noise makers in just about every situation. All three on at once is going to add a lot of backgound noise to the signal!
The fact that the sound changes as you move your guitar around suggests that the pickups are the main issue, beyond sheilding. The shielding could be amiss, but assuming it is all correct, it is worth checking them. I would wager that you are playing single coils?? This is a far more common problem with those, although it can happen with humbuckers too.
The first thing is that single coils just pick noise up, in much the same way as a radio does. Even with shielding the pickup is still open to signals arriving at the coils, so a strong enough signal, paticularly in front of you, will still get through. I have been in rooms where an otherwise quiet guitar will buzz like billy-o. Power supplies, lights, railway lines, all manner of things can be strong enough to cause trouble. Wireless mics will transmit signals which can be 'played' by a guitar and amp, which explains your trouble at rehearsal! I once played regularly at a venue with a stage within a hearing aid loop- the whole front of house mix would come out of my amp. I never had noise problems with my guitar, but that one was only solved by using humbuckers.
The the pickups could be microphonic- the construction of pickups and dynamic microphones are very similar, and if the coils of wire in the pickups are able to move around the magnet, then they pretty much are dynamic mics. A vauge test of this is tapping on the pickup- most pickups will transmit this as signal, but overly microphonic one more so. If it is noticable clean, then there is more than likely a problem with the coils being free to vibrate around the magnet. This is solved with wax potting, literally soaking the coils in hot wax, which then solidifies to hold the coils in place. It can be done at home, but in terms of cost, effort, and mess it is probably more efficient to have a repairer do it.
You could of course replace the pickups with single coil-sized humbuckers, which will be potted and cut out lots of interference, but that can be both expensive and a whole new tonal minefield!
As for the shielding, there are those who know a lot more about it than me, but without a good look there may little to tell whats up.
Best of luck!
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Post by rabidgerry on Jun 22, 2008 7:50:03 GMT -5
The pick up I usually use and find noise on is the neck pick up and middel which is a high output single coil from Kent Armstrong. They're only a few months old. I've also potted ithem and when I tap on 'em and they still makes a noise, but I noiced every pickup I tap on does, even humbuckers.
I'm starting to think my idea of reducing the noise is overly ambitious. When should I expect noise that I just wont be able to cure? In a situation such as high gain, high volume, chorus and wha? If this is the case then so be it. Even on my practice amp at low volume the noise situation happens. The less gain+effects obviously reduces the problem.
To define whether my guitar is at its optimum quietness, would be to have it on clean settings and listen to see if there is any hum yes? If this is the case then my guitar is silent by that standard. Just not with gain and + effects.
I bought an ART CLEAN BOX II hum elimantor to remove 60hz and above hum. I hope it helps. The best noise reduction I've used so far was on my old Zoom 2100 effects pedal, much better than the boss GT6 noise suppressor. Wish zoom sold an individual noise reduction unit.
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Post by andy on Jun 22, 2008 8:43:02 GMT -5
Yeah, the tap test is pretty vauge really- it just makes it obvious when a pickup is particularly bad.
As for how much noise is acceptable, that is entirely up to you! Have you ever heard 'We Live' by Electric Wizard? Some folks just don't give a monkeys, and it can even add to a track in the right context. Rock albums often have sounds before tracks or in little gaps in the music which are 'noise' from interference or unintentional handling noise. It can add to the vibe, and create a 'liveness' to things, or add anticipation to the start of a gig (and especially lots of choas right at the end!) so it's not bad or wrong as such- it just comes down to how much of a problem it causes.
And at the end of the day, there is no such thing as a totally silent guitar rig, until you turn it off!
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Post by rabidgerry on Jun 22, 2008 9:36:48 GMT -5
May be I'm trying to hard. I hope though my shielding is done correctly.
The main problem i have with the noise is mainly at high volume at practices and gig's, sometimes the noise just sounds like my gear is broke compared to other people. It's not broke but I've never noticed much noise from other peoples rig's.
At gig's also, believe it or not, inadequate plugs can be a problem, I guess this would give rise to excessive noise also being a lot of equipment is going to the same ground. That's something I can't help.
I'd never swap my single coils so I'll just put it with what I got. Thanks for the help though it's much appreciated. Some people on forums have a very condescending tone in their msg's. Good that aint on gnuts2!!
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Post by newey on Jun 22, 2008 10:00:19 GMT -5
RG- Yes. If that is the case, your problem lies elsewhere in the signal chain, with the gain and effects. It sounds like you're describing a fairly excessive amount of noise here. Look over the suggestions Ash makes above, focusing on your chorus, wah etc. I'd also try borrowing someone else's pedals, even if it's not one you would like or use, just to see if maybe one of your effects is the culprit. And: This thread has just been sitting here for about a year now. That's not a hijack, more like squatter's rights . . .  |
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Post by sumgai on Jun 22, 2008 13:42:47 GMT -5
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Post by D2o on Jun 22, 2008 19:08:41 GMT -5
Having read through everything that has been discussed and revealed here, I think that is a distinct possibility. I don't use effects very often, and I do notice on certain types of settings there is a boatload more noise and hiss and unruly behaviour than on other more mundane settings.
Just to set you at ease about that.
First, that was just a WildA$$Guess before I knew more about what you were doing, and
Second, while you can shield ineffectively, it's pretty hard to get it downright wrong.
The most likely effect of "improper" shielding would be that you then remove the wires connecting the backs of the pots, even though your shielding is not entirely connected electrically and magnetically. But it sounds like you did a good job with good materials and, while we're at it, not bad methodology for (I assume) the first time around.
Nevertheless, if you are feeling adventurous and energetic, you could run wires to connect the backs of the pots and see if that helps. Worst case scenario, you end up with a ground loop - but some of us are not convinced that ground loops are actually (in practical terms, as opposed to guitar wiring 101 best practices) that big of a deal.
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Post by rabidgerry on Jun 23, 2008 7:35:12 GMT -5
Ok Sqautter's rights it is!!! ;D
This is a good forum!!!
Right my guitar must be ok then. What I'll do is try different plug situations.
Now in all honesty at gig's this is outta my hands so I might have to put up with that when I'm in a bar blowing people's heads off!!
My Boss GT6 is about 3 years old and I used like twice, I've rekindled the fire for using it so now it's in more use I can safely say it's virtually new outta the box condition so I know it's not f__ked!! My amp is fine working ok, gives a little hum but not much to bark about, just that general on hum.
My loop situation is guitar-boss-amp, not too many I'd a thought. However the plug situation is:
one socket-amp+boss+stereo (but it's never on)
Is this too many?
I'll try another arrangement.
I'll not be online for a while so I'll get back to this issue later in the week!!
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