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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 20, 2012 15:34:13 GMT -5
If you have an ohmmeter, plug a cable into the guitar and connect the probes to the loose end of the cable. With the volume on 10 and the selector in position 1 we should see about 6k (could vary considerably depending on the type of pickups). It should read about the same in position 2 (series) and about half that in position 2 (parallel). If the "no sound" in position 2 (series) is due to a short, we'll see a very low resistance. If it's due to an open, we'll see a much higher resistance. If you don't have a meter, I don't know what to suggest.
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Post by haydukej on Mar 20, 2012 18:39:25 GMT -5
Well reTrEaD, I just opened up my guitar, double checked the wiring (which everything was in order,yay me!), looked the 5way over and pressed in the connection on #2 just a bit to make sure the wiper would make a positive connection and then ran the multi-meter test. All values checked out to be reasonable so then I proceeded to the screwdriver test and got everything working there. So long story short, not sure what the issue was, but it is all good now. Thanks so much for your input. +1. Thanks to JohnH & John A for this diagram. Time to enjoy some new sounds
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 20, 2012 20:26:44 GMT -5
Good luck, and I hope the problem doesn't return. But if it does, you'll know to start with an ohmmeter and we'll figure it out from there.
Hope to see you around in the other conversations on the board.
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 24, 2012 4:14:54 GMT -5
Dear John and Re-tread,
Thanks for the input. Sorry not replied so far, been away. I think perhaps that my message wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting replacing the phase switching on the bridge with phase switching on the middle, but adding EXTRA phase switching, this time on the middle, or I guess the neck could also be used. I was suggesting this as with the switch for putting the neck in parallel in any position (which I have added and I guess it also works in serial positon, i.e. serial pups in parallel with neck?) I can get neck and middle in parallel and so it would be nice to be able to put them out of phase.
I suggested therefore putting the bridge out of phase pull on the middle tone pot and the neck out of phase on the neck tone pot. I would then need to add a switch somewhere to add/remove neck in parallel with current switching.
I guess it makes no difference if I out of phase middle or neck with another although middle pup is RWRP. Cheers,
Danny
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Post by JohnH on Mar 24, 2012 5:41:38 GMT -5
Dear John and Re-tread, Thanks for the input. Sorry not replied so far, been away. I think perhaps that my message wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting replacing the phase switching on the bridge with phase switching on the middle, but adding EXTRA phase switching, this time on the middle, or I guess the neck could also be used. I OK, you can add another phase switch if you want to, just add it directly after the pickup, before it connects to the rest of the circuit. John
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 25, 2012 16:11:15 GMT -5
Hi D2o, Can you check my 'truth table'? Its for the strat lovers strat with added switch for adding neck in parallel with whatever combination you are in. Is it what you are hearing? Thanks! D
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Post by dannyhill on Apr 17, 2012 10:32:52 GMT -5
Hi Re-tread,
Not really read your comment properly until now. I get what you say about putting phase switch only on neck or bridge as although ADDING a neck phase will allow N+M or NXM out of phase, unlike B+N or BXN, these two new 'positions' will be non-noise cancelling like two others that we already have: B+M or BxM out of phase? For sure, I would keep B+N and BXN out of phase but why not add some more positions? Cheers,
Daniel
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Post by newey on Apr 17, 2012 11:14:56 GMT -5
Now you've got me confused, DH. The SLS scheme doesn't put the neck pickup in series with the bridge, the only series settings are with the bridge. So adding a phase switch to the neck will only add one other option, -N + M.
You also asked:
D2o only stops by infrequently anymore, so I doubt he's seen your post. In looking at your truth table, it is difficult to decipher what is going on without having a diagram of how you added the "neck on" switch.
But I do note that your scheme has several dead or "off" positions. These are due to the fact that, with the bridge pup on in series with the 5-way, pulling the "neck on" breaks the connection to the 5 way and thus defeats the series connection.
There may be a way to avoid having that happen, I don't know for sure as I haven't looked at it. But my suspicion is that you would either need more switch poles to do so (meaning it can't be done with just a P/P pot), or you would need a major redesign of JohnH's original SLS design, and potentially would lose the "good stuff" in the design as a result.
It really doesn't matter if the dead switch positions don't bother you- I know they would bother me but YMMV.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 17, 2012 15:24:17 GMT -5
The SLS scheme doesn't put the neck pickup in series with the bridge, the only series settings are with the bridge. So adding a phase switch to the neck will only add one other option, -N + M. I think you meant middle instead of bridge? J
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Post by newey on Apr 17, 2012 18:29:35 GMT -5
Yes, -N + M would be added, I meant.
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Post by dannyhill on Apr 18, 2012 4:01:51 GMT -5
Hi Newey, OK, here is where I am confused, and wanted D2o to check out my table. If I pull out my volume pot to add the bridge in series, select the neck position AND pull out the middle tone pot to add the neck in parallel, what on earth do I get? My guess was BXN. But probably Im wrong. If not, then adding a phase switch for neck will then put these two out of phase, and hum cancelling. I added the neck on switch exactly how it features in D2o's post. But don't worry, the dead positions dont bother me. Too bad about D2o not being on here often. JohnH - It was the neck phase I was thinking of switching not the middle. Cheers, D
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harv
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Post by harv on Apr 21, 2012 1:21:56 GMT -5
It's my first post so here it goes... Almost a year ago I caught the modding bug and did the "strat lovers other strat" mods to my SSS strat (without really looking at all the different tones it allowed - just modding for the sake of modding), and later on I bought a humbucker to replace the single coil in the bridge position. Unfortunately, school/work/life got in the way and I wasn't able to sit down with my guitar and soldering iron for almost 7 months (I forgot what little I understood regarding guitar electronics). Now I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to incorporate a HB in the bridge position with the goal of having all of the previous strat lovers other strat single coil combinations with both the HB and a split HB (replacing the parallel tone pot with a push-pull pot). Upon researching how a humbucker actually works (I'm a noob), I realized that a humbucker is just two single coils IN SERIES. This brings me to the question, would a humbucker in the bridge position sound similar enough to the bridge x middle pick up? What would happen if I ran a humbucker x middle single coil? And, if it seems worthwhile, how would I go about incorporating a HB with the split function into the "strat lovers other strat" configuration? The humbucker in question is a Seymour Duncan Custom 5. Split coil wiring schematic: www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=coil_splitting Does it matter which coil (north or south) I use for the split (is there an audible difference)? I'm assuming one would prefer to use the adjustable coil, unless there's something I'm missing. Sorry for the long essay, but like I said, there's a lot I don't know/understand... my questions in summary: 1) would a humbucker in the bridge position sound the same (or similar) as (to) the single coil B x M combo? 2) is there an audible difference in which coil is used when a humbucker is split? Which coil is "traditionally" used? 3) how would I incorporate a HB in the bridge positon of the "strat lovers other strat" configuration with the option of spliting the HB (using a push-pull pot for the parallel tone control)? (diagram much appreciated ;D ) Thanks to anyone who took the time to even read though all of this
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Post by JohnH on Apr 21, 2012 4:07:18 GMT -5
Hello harv, and welcome to GN2
I think if you want a real humbucker sound, it will be a good idea to add one. The B and M singles sound a bit like that , but not quite the same, due to the fact that they are different in spacing and position, plus the way they interact with their magnets.
You can just wire the new HB straight in place of the B single. then if you want a split option, take the join between coils and wire it to ground via a switch. There's a few possible subleties and options, and Ill post again tomorrow.
John
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Post by newey on Apr 21, 2012 10:11:16 GMT -5
harv-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
While we await the follow-up from JohnH, let me address some of your questions:
It does matter, but mostly it matters because of hum/noise, not because there is a significant difference in the tones of the two coils.
There are exceptions, however, where the two coils are sufficiently dissimilar that we would expect different tones from each (SD makes a pickup called "P-rails" where one coil is like a P90 and the other is a rail-type, for example).
If the coils are the same, the slight difference in string positioning (since they're right next to each other) usually won't result in any audible tone difference between the two, at least not to my ears.
Now, when I've made this point in the past, others have disagreed with me and insisted that they can indeed hear a difference- in other words, your mileage may vary.
But the real issue on which coil to use will be the hum-cancelling issue. If your SSS setup is like that of most "modern" Strats, your middle pickup will be RWRP ("Reverse wound, reverse polarity") so as to make it hum-cancelling with both the bridge and neck pups in switch positions 2 and 4, respectively, on the std. Strat 5-way switch.
This means that (unless you change out another pickup as well as the bridge), one bridge coil will be hum-cancelling in combination with the middle, but not with the neck. The other bridge coil will cancel when combined with the neck, but not the middle.
So, you then have to chose one or the other; you would need to add more switching to be able to chose to split either bridge coil to have maximum hum-cancelling.
If you are likely to use the split bridge coil most of the time in combination with the mid pup, you would chose one coil to split; if you would play mostly with the bridge single coil with the neck, you'd choose the other coil to be split. We can help you wire it for either choice once we know which way you prefer to go.
See answer above. How it gets wired will depend on which coil you want. We also need to know about the other pickups- your SCs. Are they also SDs, or some other brand? If they are some other brand, some testing of the coil polarity (easily done) will be necessary to know which coil will hum-cancel with which of the other pickups (the designation of coils as "north" vs. "south" polarity can vary from one manufacturer to another and so it doesn't really help us any.)
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 21, 2012 15:43:10 GMT -5
There's a few possible subleties and options, and Ill post again tomorrow. Let me see if I can guess where you're going with this, John... 1 - With open HBs, the slug coil and screw coil sound very similar. In this case, position (proximity to the bridge, for the bridge HB) will have a larger influence on tone than the pole-pieces. 2 - With metal covers on the HBs, the screw coil has more output and treble than the slug coil. 3 - Hum-canceling is a separate issue. When combining a SC with one coil of a HB, choose the coil of the opposite magnetic polarity as the SC if they are to be in-phase. Choose the coil of the same magnetic polarity as SC if they are to be out-of-phase.
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Post by sumgai on Apr 21, 2012 18:02:54 GMT -5
reT, 3 - Hum-canceling is a separate issue. When combining a SC with one coil of a HB, choose the coil of the opposite magnetic polarity as the SC if they are to be in-phase. Choose the coil of the same magnetic polarity as SC if they are to be out-of-phase. I think you meant to refer to the property of hum-cancellling, not tonal phase, eh? HTH sumgai
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 21, 2012 18:36:18 GMT -5
I think you meant to refer to the property of hum-cancellling, not tonal phase, eh? I mean the tonal phase. To achieve hum-canceling...Use coils of opposite magnetic polarity when the coils will be used (tonally) in-phase. Use coils of like magnetic polarity when the coils will be used (tonally) out-of-phase.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 21, 2012 19:39:42 GMT -5
There's a few possible subleties and options, and Ill post again tomorrow. Let me see if I can guess where you're going with this, John... 1 - With open HBs, the slug coil and screw coil sound very similar. In this case, position (proximity to the bridge, for the bridge HB) will have a larger influence on tone than the pole-pieces. 2 - With metal covers on the HBs, the screw coil has more output and treble than the slug coil. 3 - Hum-canceling is a separate issue. When combining a SC with one coil of a HB, choose the coil of the opposite magnetic polarity as the SC if they are to be in-phase. Choose the coil of the same magnetic polarity as SC if they are to be out-of-phase. partly what I had in mind... But my further thought was that the second (lower ) half of the 5 way may be better employed directing which B coil is cut, instead of its current fairly subtle job of disconnecting disused coils (from the middle series connection - ie not actually hanging from hot but hanging from halfway betwen ground and hot) when in series mode. This current function may make a very small reduction in noise. But with a coil-cut Hb, there is more to gain there by using it to pick suitable coils from B to best combine with the other pups to optimise humcancelling when possible. John
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 21, 2012 22:33:02 GMT -5
But with a coil-cut Hb, there is more to gain there by using it to pick suitable coils from B to best combine with the other pups to optimise humcancelling when possible. With a superswitch, it would be more simple. But with a standard 5-way, it gets a bit complicated. I think the basic concept would be to connect the series link to the pole of the selector, then use the appropriate throw on the selector to direct that connection to the bridge phase switch. (this would automatically flip which coil is being selected when the bridge out of phase. So our in-phase bridge would have one coil shunted when the selector is in position 1 &2 and the OTHER coil shunted when the selector is in position 4&5. Unfortunately, there isn't a damned thing you can do about position 3 (BxM series mode). If you try to use that lug, you'll end up with a dead bridge in position 4 (series mode). Snarly is.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 22, 2012 0:14:30 GMT -5
Yes fair enough. the basic 5-way is not suitable for doing what I was thinking of. So id say that, to use an Hb with coil cut to go with this SLS wiring, just make the coil cut to provide whichever single bridge coil sounds best, and the two SD diagrams posted above show how to achieve this. If it is open coil (ie, both coils likely to sound similar), then it couldd be arranged so at least Bsingle and M combos are hum reduced, since these appear in both parallel and series sets.
If a superswitch was employed, Id suggest to start again because we have several more interesting SSS and SSH designs based on those.
John
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Post by sumgai on Apr 22, 2012 1:29:32 GMT -5
I think you meant to refer to the property of hum-cancellling, not tonal phase, eh? I mean the tonal phase.
To achieve hum-canceling...
Use coils of opposite magnetic polarity when the coils will be used (tonally) in-phase.
Use coils of like magnetic polarity when the coils will be used (tonally) out-of-phase.Somewhere in there, I expected to see the phrase "Reverse Wound, Reverse Polarity (RWRP)". Without that, your surmisal is null and void. In order for hum cancellation to occur while the tone remains robust, both the magetic polarity and the wiring direction must be reversed, in comparison between two coils. This is cast in stone, concrete, or whatever, but it's immutable. Reversing only one will result in double the hum, and a thin or nasal tone, also pretty much cast in stone. To have the same polarity magnets and have out-of-phase tonality, one would have to have reversed the wiring, right? And that's exactly what you've espoused so far, yes? So where I've "gone wrong" (but I'm really correct!) is that I'm assuming that once the coil is separated from it's mate (within the Hb), it's now just another coil - the reference labels of 'hot' and 'ground' or whatever, are definitely mutable.... and I've chosen to believe that if one wish's robust tonality, one can simply choose such connectivity between the two coils, and that's the what comes out - in-phase and more hum. After all, that's what they had to do with the reversed-polarity coil, find out which way to hook up the leads, to ensure the best tone. Right? See, assume made butt's out of both you and me! ;D OK, nothing to see here folks, let's all move along...... sumgai
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harv
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Post by harv on Apr 22, 2012 3:27:02 GMT -5
Wow thanks everyone for the warm welcome and insightful replies! ;D The HB I have is open, and the single coils on my strat are stock (Standard American strat); I was actually going to replace the stock pickups with some boutique pickups, but once I preformed the "strat lovers other strat" mod, I realized that I was actually quite happy with my tonal options (and keeping the extra $$ in my wallet). I had completely overlooked the hum-cancelling possibilities of a split humbucker, and although I think it would be more practical to split the HB so that it is hum-cancelling with the middle SC (since it's used in multiple combinations), for now I would prefer that the split HB would be hum-cancelling in combination with the neck SC, as that's probably my most used pickup configuration next to Bx(M+N) or B alone. As for a superswitch, as awesome and tempting as that sounds (the possibilities!!!), I think for now I'll just stick with the stock 5-way switch until I feel the "need" to change my sounds a little bit, and as mentioned, I'd probably consider one of the other wiring configurations already outlined in other posts. With all of knowledgable replies here, I think I have enough to figure out the rest of the wiring on my own, but if anyone has the will and free time to put together a diagram, I'd appreciate it Thanks again everyone! I can't wait to get started on this tomorrow1
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 22, 2012 9:42:46 GMT -5
OK, nothing to see here folks, let's all move along...... Actually there is... Humcanceling is a tricky subject because there are THREE variables, not just two. Polarity of the magnet, winding direction, and connectivity (using winding "start" as "hot" VS using winding "finish" as "hot") I suppose I really should start a thread just on this subject. Somewhere in there, I expected to see the phrase "Reverse Wound, Reverse Polarity (RWRP)". Without that, your surmisal is null and void. This is a fairly common misconception. It's a result of using RWRP SCs to achieve hum-canceling. In fact, one doesn't need to pair up a coil that's reverse WOUND, reverse (magnetic) polarity with a normally wound coil to achieve hum-canceling when the two are electrically (tonally) in-phase. One could use a coil that's reverse CONNECTED, reverse (magnetic) polarity. (Both coils having the same winding direction) One might deem that "RCRP". So yeah, there's a lot of potential for confusion. for now I would prefer that the split HB would be hum-cancelling in combination with the neck SC, as that's probably my most used pickup configuration next to Bx(M+N) or B alone. This is as good a reason as any. After using this guitar with a HB in the bridge, you might find that you prefer the full HB (unsplit) with the Neck SC. But you won't know until you've lived with it a while.
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Post by newey on Apr 22, 2012 11:28:13 GMT -5
Now you've lost me. A bobbin can be wound clockwise or counterclockwise, but we can only define which is which by reference to the two ends of the wire- it just depends on which end we call "start". So, I'm seeing both direction and connectivity as being identical . . .
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Post by sumgai on Apr 22, 2012 12:37:14 GMT -5
'TrEaD, OK, nothing to see here folks, let's all move along...... Actually there is...Oh boy. OK, let's go. newey's correct, you've overcomplicated things. For a change, I might add. Strange, that. Humcanceling is a tricky subject....... I suppose I really should start a thread just on this subject. No need. As usual, ChrisK has beaten you to it. (But that's only because he stumbled upon this Forum before you did, I'm sure.) guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=1639&page=1#15698As a fellow EE of the same stripe, I'll agree with Chris's summation therein. But the jist of all this, labels are just that - references, and nothing else. Labels are almost always mutable. And that's my bottom line, take it for whatever you wish. HTH sumgai
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 22, 2012 12:56:46 GMT -5
No surprise. This is a complicated matter. Skipping a step can easily result in getting lost. So, I'm seeing both direction and connectivity as being identical . . . No, they are definitely related, but definitely two separate things. A bobbin can be wound clockwise or counterclockwise, but we can only define which is which by reference to the two ends of the wire- it just depends on which end we call "start". You've combined the concepts together here rather than keeping them separate. There is a difference between "absolute" winding direction and "net" winding direction. What you've just described is "net" winding direction. Think of winding direction in "absolute" terms. The start is the end of the wire where the winding begins. This is the end buried under all the later winding. The finish is the end where the last windings occurred. If we have a "clockwise" wind, the finish end is "clockwise", relative to the start end. But the start end is counter-clockwise relative to the finish end. This is where "winding direction" and "connectivity" combine to give a "net" result. In the strictest sense of the word, start will always be start. If you lose sight of that by looking at the net result of connectivity, you will likely get lost. Diagrams would help. I'll be sure to include some if I post a thread. EDIT:I don't see a post within a somewhat related thread as serving the same function as a thread on a specific issue. I also noticed that Chris later refined his terminology regarding "winding direction" to "EFFECTIVE winding direction", in a later post. Again, this points to the difference between absolute winding direction and "net" winding direction. Apparently a thread on this has been deemed unnecessary. Fair enough.
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Post by newey on Apr 22, 2012 21:53:15 GMT -5
Well, we're getting rather further afield here, but I'll ask the obvious question. There is a difference, of course, physically, based upon where the two ends of the wire are located.
But, what is the different electrically?
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Post by JohnH on Apr 23, 2012 4:14:15 GMT -5
I do think we should have a thread on hum-canceling. I'll start one, as a discussion thread, and when we have, knocked it around a bit, gone off tropic, come back again and reached something of a consensus, we can post the distilled version in the reference section.
John
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harv
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Post by harv on Apr 24, 2012 17:41:08 GMT -5
I apologize in advanced for my drawing... I'm on a mac and there is no MS paint (I couldn't label anything) So I tried wiring the HB yesterday but hit a bit of a snag... I'm planning to wire the HB so that when split, it's hum-cancelling with the neck position. I just wanted to verify that the RED wire on the HB would go to one of the middle lugs of the push-pull portion of the series tone pot, and the WHITE and BARE wires go to the other middle lug (opposite of the other HB connection, oriented according to the neck and middle pickups), along with the short BLACK wire that is activated when the pot is push/pulled. I was a little confused as to whether this black wire would go with the bare/white wires or would it remain soldered to the pot it's located on... I also wasn't sure of the orientation of the push-pull pot diagram on the SD site... are the lugs of the DPDT switch closest to the pot (the lug with the black wire) activated when the pot is pulled out or pushed in? Any help/advice is appreciated.. thanks!
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Post by newey on Apr 24, 2012 18:10:28 GMT -5
Harv-
It's a bit tough to follow your verbal description but essentially the red and black wires from your HB go to the same place that the SC bridge pup wires went before. The red should be the hot. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using ProBoards
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