Strat with two volume controls SSS, HSS & HHH

[JohnH]

Here are two designs for a Strat with three single coils, and two volume controls. (EDIT: see also below for additional HSS and HHH versions).
They came from the following thread. Which includes the same designs and some discussion:

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1163817284

Strats usually have two tone controls and a single volume. Having two volumes lets you mix the sounds to create blends, and also to set up different volume settings for quick changes between rhythm and solo.

The first design keeps the standard format of the 5 position switch, to select B, B+M, M, M+N and N. The second design extends the concept, to add phasing and series/parallel switching.

The two versions have the following common features:

• One volume controls the bridge, the other controls neck and middle
  
• Uses a standard Strat 5-way switch
  
• Single tone control, implemented as a dual-gang pot. This is because tone controls need to be on the pickup side of the volume controls in order to work consistently, hence with two volume controls, a double tone pot is needed.
  
• Caps and resistors on the volume controls for treble-bleed, keeping high frequencies preserved as volume is reduced, counteracting loss due to the cable capacitance.

‘Basic’ design

Here is the basic design, as a wiring diagram viewed from the back:



The volume controls are 500k Linear, forwards wired. With two volumes, setting one volume to a very low level in combination with another pup, will reduce both pups. However, I believe that this is better than the alternative 'reverse wiring' of volume controls, which compromises their effectiveness as master volumes. Forwards wiring, with linear volume pots, is the best IMO, for mixing two pups. With the basic design, mixing is only available in the N+M position, elsewhere, the two volume pots are independent.

The tone caps are a personal choice, and there could be a different cap for bridge and for neck/middle. I'd say 22nF (=0.022uF) is a good starting point, or maybe 22nf for bridge and 47nF for neck/middle.

Recommended starting values for the treble bleed capacitors and resistors are 1nF and 220k.

’Plus’ design

Here’s the 'plus' design, including a schematic and wiring diagram. It uses push/pull switches on the two volume pots to put the bridge out of phase, and/or to put the bridge in series with whatever else is selected.

This is the schematic:



and the wiring:



This gives rise to some very powerful extra sounds that extend the range of the Strat, including Bridge and Neck in series, in or out of phase, and Bridge and middle in series. The first three positions in series mode are all B x M. This triplication is as a result of using the standard Strat 5-way, but it offers the advantage of a quick change from B. M or B+M, with one switch operation, to the much more powerful series sound, B x M.

These designs have been checked, but not built yet, but I'll let you know when they have.

(Note, the push/pull switches are shown on the side of the pots instead of the back, for ease of my drawing. They are wired assuming that the poles connect to the lugs furthest from the shaft when pushed in. Apparently there are some types where this is reversed.)

Monradon, if you try one of these be sure to post here with pictures and a build report! The 'plus' version I also have lined up for an old Ibanez Strat.

cheers

John

EDIT 21/02/2011

Here is a version for HHH pickups, using push/pull pots to cut the two front pickups to single coil, and the back pickup switched to parallel

[JohnH]

Well, the Two Volume Strat got built, by Barry Day, a musician from Austin TX, with benevolent guidance and support from our own Runewalker.

A basic design is not enough in Texas, so they decided to add an extra twist, being a DiMarzio HS3 stacked Humbucker in the bridge position. This has two coils above each other, designed for single coil effects with humcancelling. But you can also select each coil, and in combination with the other coil settings, both coils are useful.

So we worked out an extra DPDT to do the coil selection, here is the total wiring:



And it all worked out fine. Here's Barry's report (SLS refers to this design)

First off the entire guitar with the dead on Neck and Mid Alnico “Stratty” Pups sound fuller with the new wiring scheme than in the stock config. I am talking about the standard Parallel setting per SLS. I say fuller because that is the way I hear it. Not bassier or more middy, just fuller tonally, still PLENTY of bite. Maybe the tonebleeder? New pots? New wiring? Not sure why. Maybe it is like getting a new guitar and just hearing it’s different tonal character versus the others in the herd. The inherent tone of the Neck and Mid Pups are just all around better sounding to my ears than before the SLS wiring in regular Parallel.

The DiMarzio HS3 is a great balanced PUP with the Alnico N/M and the HS3 Switch adds two more voice selections on any PUP switch setting utilizing the HS3. Oh yeah. The Top SC and HB are usable in any config and I can hear the difference between them upon selection. I now believe the HS3 PUP switch is a huge plus on top of the overall SLS switching options! Thanks for your guidance and in providing the integrated SLS schematic. It is funny, in OOP settings with Top SC or HB, the sound is really throaty and treble-ly which I understand and can work with especially in modeler overdrive modes. In the OOP with HS3 TopSC/HB mode it kind of gets that Tele bite which I can use on some of the twangy country songs the band plays.
Now the surprise> When the BottomSC- HS3 is kicked in under OOP the sound is thick(er). Surprising in that when HS3 is only selected, in standard Parallel, the Bottom SC has quite a bit less output (I expected this) than Top SC or HB selection. Guess this has to do with how OOP functions with the “leftover frequencies” between two Pups. It is a unique sound and surprisingly pleasing. Kind of fat and jazzy.

Series Mode
This is really where the HS3 switch kicks in big time. All of the settings in Serial mode of course utilize the HS3 and playing with the HS3 switch in these modes is yielding a ton of flexibility and tones.
*Position 1 : Bridge/Neck is ultra flexible using the HS3 switch
*Position 2 : Bridge in Series with Neck/Mid Parallel is probably my fave of the day for a couple of reasons. It is mighty and full plus add in the HS3 switching capability and it even goes further tonally.
*Positions 3,4,5 – same as above with some extra bite.

Now for the big plus on ALL Series settings . The Neck/Mid Volume and the Bridge Volume can be adjusted/mixed for tremendous custom tone shaping/blending. This blows me away over how they function and balance out so well. Maybe it is that Tone bleeder on both Vols, not sure but it really is a major plus on the overall flexibility of dialing in what is desired. The Vols/interaction keep the tone crisp and clear on the roll down, not muddy as with stock volume controls. My Tradition Gold LP just has the standard wiring – 2Vol-2Tone and Vol mixing is nowhere as discrete and precise as in this SLS configuration. I really love this feature and it clearly is of major value in a live setting.


I'd like to thank Barry for that feedback, which I wanted to share since one can never really tell what's good and not-so good until someone tries it.

cheers

John

[UnklMickey]

johnh said:

...A basic design is not enough in Texas,...

why does this NOT surprise me?

[Runewalker]

unklmickey said:

johnh said:

...A basic design is not enough in Texas,...

why does this NOT surprise me?

You know, being a devotee of the "Excess is best" school, I am rethinking it after seeing a woman at a family gathering who followed that adage and has the vibram sole face to prove it. Whoa, Nellie.

This tweak was minor in the electronics department but massive in the tone dept.

"Ya know, boys. Ya can't smoke a brisket without da' rub and in 3 hrs. Sumtimes, ya just gotta kick a little @ss to find where the tender spots are."

--Tex Hornet

Heck, I don't know what he's talking about either, and he's family.

Those HS series pups are pretty amazing. A really credible, but quite strat sound in top single, fatter strat sound in series, and this under coil provides some unique combos and really, unheard of sounds. Just a little annoying in a 3 pup version to have to use 3 additional mini-s.

This thing is a pretty easy build compared to something like the TM-II, and for what it does a worthwhile pop. It doesn't do everything but what it doesn't cover the amp knobs will.

RW

[JohnH]

This design now has an HHH version, see post 1, in addition to SSS and HSS

cheers

John

[darkcyde]

Im planing on doing your "Two volume plus". The twist is I was planing on using the one for SSS, utilizing 3 rail type pickups wired as single coils.

Here comes the dumb question part.
Since these rails will be essentially hum canceled single coils without a RW middle. Is there any alterations that need to be made, or is it even relevant?

[newey]

You should still have just two wires, (plus perhaps a bare shield wire which is always grounded), from these rails, so they get wired just like the SCs in the diagram.

You may need to translate the wire colors, of course.

[darkcyde]

So no strange oop combos or anything as a result of of windings of the middle coil?

Sorry to keep checking but I am just about to start solding this together.

[newey]

With no RWRP middle, and assuming the pickups are all the same brand, then they ought to be the same.

So long as you're consistent in how you wire them, it shouldn't be an issue.

[darkcyde]

Thank you for your help. Warming the Weller now.

[jimmynitro64]

Hello everbody. I'm using your 2 volume strat mod and i love it. However I would like to add an old mod that gives you the neck and bridge or all three pups simply by adding an on/off mini switch to the neck pup lug on the 5 way switch on standard strat wiring. I think this can be done on the 2 volume thing also by adding the on/off switch between n and b lugs on 5 way. But why not add an on/off/on wired for out of phase instead? There might be some very cool sounds come from this. But i'm not sure how to wire it. Can some one help me?

[newey]

jimmynitro64-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

How you could best do this would depend on which of the 4 or so versions of the two-volume Start you already have installed. Is it the basic version or one of the various "plus" versions?

But why not add an on/off/on wired for out of phase instead?

I'm not clear here. Would this be turning the neck pickup "off" in the center?

If you have the "basic" two-volume version (i.e., without any of the P/P pots), the best way to accomplish getting N + B and N + M + B is to add a "bridge on" switch, since the bridge doesn't share a volume.

On the original "Strat with 2 Vols" diagram, the "bridge on" switch would be ideally placed on the green wire running between the bridge volume control and the 5-way switch. Switched one way, the connection is made to the 5-way along the green wire. Switched the other way, the green wire goes to the output jack red wire.

You want to run the "on" switch after the pots so that they're still in the circuit. If you switch the neck pickup direct to the output, bypassing the pots, you'll be increasing that pickups' output relative to the others, and it may not balance as well with the other pickups.

[jimmynitro64]

hello. Thanks for the info about the mini switch between the green wire and he hot out to get the n+b or all three pups using the basic design. Works great. I'm also using the star grounding as described in your Website. However when I turn down either of the volumes i get a bad hum. Not the pots. Switched them out. Does the same with reverse wiring. Any sugestions? Thank you.

[JohnH]

Hi jimmy

There's no reason why this design, particularly the basic version, should hum more than other Strat circuits. Is it humming in all switch settings? Do the volume controls go down to zero volume? if not, it can mean the ground lugs are not grounded (blue wires) which explains hum at reduced volume, together with an inability to go fully off at 0 volume.

The single coils will hum a bit as normal of course. And in position 2, which is normally hum cancelling, turning down a volume control will cause hum to return since there will not be a balance of coil outputs.

John

[4real]

Could the problem be the jack wires are reversed...ground and hot to the cable...so the pots are turning down the 'ground' including the string ground, tec. Easy thing to do, and to fix...just a thought

[jimmynitro64]

Jan 9, 2013 3:24:18 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Hi jimmy

There's no reason why this design, particularly the basic version, should hum more than other Strat circuits. Is it humming in all switch settings? Do the volume controls go down to zero volume? if not, it can mean the ground lugs are not grounded (blue wires) which explains hum at reduced volume, together with an inability to go fully off at 0 volume.

The single coils will hum a bit as normal of course. And in position 2, which is normally hum cancelling, turning down a volume control will cause hum to return since there will not be a balance of coil outputs.

John

[jimmynitro64]

Thank you guys for all great info. Sorry but i forgot to tell you that this strat I'm wiring is an HHH using the basic design. I'm using the star grounding and shielding as described in you website. I have only the mid pup coil taped with an on/off/ on mini switch to get either coil or both. Works fine. I,m sure you,ve heard of this mod. It's grounded to the tone pot. All other grounds go to the ring terminal which all seem well soldered,ecsept the braided grounds from all the pups that go to the back of the pot with the ring termial. the only other mod is the on/off mini switch that goes to the 5 way between the bridge and hot out as we talked about before. as you may have guessed I'm still getting a loud hum when i turn down either of the volumes half way but not all the way down. And the ground and hot is not reversed. Please help.

[JohnH]

sorry not to have any clear ideas about the problem.

You might doscover something with a multimeter. Plug in a guitar cord and measure Ohms on a 200k scale across the jack plug. At full volume you should read just less than the pickup resistance, then lower the selected volume control, and resistance should rise to 70 to 90k (if you have the treble bleeds, otherwise, about 110-130k), then fall to 0 at minimum volume. assuming 500k pots.

Maybe try that, and let us know what your pots are and what readings you get when you do this with each of the volume pots one at a time.

[stratcat33511]

So where is the H/S/S drawing layout again?

And with vintage noiseless N&M and a 59 humbucker can I still use teh regular 5-way
Thanks
Great thread

[newey]

StratCat-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

The HSS is above, called "Two-volume Strat Plus³". It looks like a SSS since it used a stacked-coil HB in the bridge.

[stratcat33511]

Thanks Newey
and THANKS
;D

[stratcat33511]

So which pot or pots have the most effect on tone as in
wont sound too dark on the VNs
N/B Volume 250k-500k?
or tone 250k-500k

Since I'll have a master tone and 2 volumes
Would 500K each Volume and tone doesnt matter ?

Thanks

[newey]

which pot or pots have the most effect on tone as in
wont sound too dark on the VNs

I assume you mean when the controls are at "10". Obviously, as you dial them down, it depends on by how much . . .

A higher-value pot will sound brighter when at "10". It will have a slightly smaller range of variation as you turn it down, however. But this difference won't be noticed much, as between 250K and 500K pots .

You have a "master tone" but it's a dual-gang pot. It's the combined resistance that matters, so any pots that are in circuit will affect the tone.

I'd say 500K pots all around would be good to keep things from being too dark.

[stratcat33511]

Thanks a Million

[stratcat33511]

But without the switches wired in ?
I'm confused

Mar 22, 2013 23:05:17 GMT -5 newey said:

StratCat-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

The HSS is above, called "Two-volume Strat Plus³". It looks like a SSS since it used a stacked-coil HB in the bridge.

[newey]

But without the switches wired in ?

Not sure what you mean, sc-

[spike]

Hi John.

I am brand new on the site so I hope you'll forgive me for any faux pas! I just tried the basic version of this schematic but changed the first volume to control the neck and bridge and the other to control the middle. Also my 2 tones are separate pots and I did not include any of the treble bleeds. I can't get it to work. Hope you can help. Sorry if this wiring appears elsewhere!

[newey]

spike-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

The best way to be sure that JohnH sees this is to "tag" him in your post, by using the "@" symbol in front of his username, like this: JohnH.

Before we can help with trouble shooting this for you, please post a diagram of the wiring you have done. There are two possibilities: First, the changes you made to the original design may be the problem- and for that we need a diagram of what your wiring is. Secondly, it could be a bad connection (or connections), which is harder to diagnose over the web. But let's eliminate possible issues with the wiring diagram first (i.e., software issues); if your diagram looks OK then we can proceed to look at possible connectivity issues, i.e., hardware issues.

[JohnH]

Thanks yes I did see this.
Also, can you please describe what happens in each setting?. So far there's no info for us to help you

J

[spike]

This is a cross between a nasville tele and a 72 deluxe with 2 volume and 2 tones planned. I'm sure I messed it up when I transposed it. Thanks so much for the reply!