Your Comments and Advice On a Tube Combo Amp?

[petros]

I just want to share this experience with fellow guitarists and welcome some comments or advice.

I am sick to the point of dispair with trying to record using amp simulator plugins like Amplitube, Waves GTR, or NI Guitar Rig. If there is one basic message I get from other players (and even recording engineers) it's that these plugins sound good not as replacements or "simulations" of a real amp (and mic) but more as their own thing within the digital realm. They can be used if you like the sound as it comes regardless of what these plugins are supposed to model, and they also have a place in the recording chain when you want to augment a miked guitar amp. That said, I have gotten very little satisfaction trying to rely on sending guitar direct through one of these simulators when tracking within a mix. When all you're recording is the guitar alone the amp simulation is very convincing (as you can hear here www.fileden.com/files/2007/5/23/1104895/Audio%20clips_Vox.mp3 ), but put the same track into a mix with a full band and the sound gets washed away losing the definition and tone you expect and need in order to have the guitar focused and standing out. You can't rely on EQ and compression either. We're not talking about sound samples as with a midi system. The root of the problem seems to be in the very nature of trying to create a digital algorithm for a system that, in the real world, because of multitudes of physical and electrical variables all contributing to a final sound (in the best cases), can't really be "emulated" to the point of a true sonic equivalent. I am not a purist, and I believe in the judicial use of digital effects. However, what I am personally discovering is that the desired guitar "tone" in my head and that I want to eventually hear in my recordings is only going to come from a real tube amp and a microphone. Despite the difficulties that make plugins much easier to use (e.g., live volume levels, room characteristics, microphone choice and placement, etc.), I don't think there's a better alternative available yet if you want to make great recordings.

So, I'm in the market for a tube (or "valve" if you prefer the British) combo amp, 15 - 30 watts max. My budget is about $600. Given that my guitar is a modified 80s Squire Stagemaster Strat with Lace Hot Gold Duallys, I ultimately have to demo any choice before I make a final decision.

I'm no longer interested in brand labels. Capitalism is slowly destroying the value of that. It's the sound of the thing that matters the most to me.

I'll give you an idea of my preferred tone, given the very subjective and personal tastes of choosing the sound anyone gets from an amplified electric guitar. I have favored a specific style, though I'm hoping I can find an amp that is still versatile (i.e., sounds good both clean and overdriven). Probably, the most influential guitarist for me has been Jimmy Page, but when you listen to the sound he gets on the first and second albums compared to the point of Presence, if it wasn't for his playing style you'd almost think there's two different guitarists there. I prefer the sound he gets on the earlier recordings and not the more "scooped mid" sound you hear in songs like "Nobody's Fault But Mine" or "Achilles Last Stand." Along the same lines, another good example of a sound I've always admired is Alvin Lee in the song "Going Home" from the Woodstock recording. It's like a pure unadulterated tube saturation, which by design has both its limited sparkle and its warmer mud. I've always hated the searing "fuzz" or shredded "fizz" distortion you hear from the heaviest metal, but then that's just my taste. What also comes to mind that I like is Eric Claption in the opening guitar riff of the original version of Layla--a nice overdriven, tube-saturated sound that still preserves tone. As a definate admirer of his blues guitarist abilities, the sound I hear in some of Stevie Ray Vaughan's recordings still has a little too much twang (e.g., Scuttle Buttin'), but then what he does in his version of Voodoo Child sounds better to my ears than that crazy cranked Big Muff sound often associated with Hendix himself. However, I don't know if the twang in the tone is a function of the amp in the recording (Fender?) or more his playing style and guitar. One other great guitar sound has always stayed with me that I've admired: The sound of the guitar solo in 25 or 6 to 4 by Chicago, though I would have liked to hear a bit more gain there. I'm not looking for an amp that can get me all these sounds exact, but I think there's something common in all of them that I do want that words might convey to someone who knows about tube guitar amps.

Specific amps I've considered:

With an amp like the Fender Blues Jr. (Fender marketeers: call an amp a "blues" something and you'll hook all fledgling guitarists no matter what it sounds like) I keep reading that the overdriven/ distortion tones capable from the amp are very marginal, and the clean tone is more a great foundation for using a stomp box type of setup. I also don't like what I hear regarding Fender manufacturing now largely moved to places like Mexico and China. I thought for a while that the Fender Hot Rod Blues Jr. NOS Tweed with one 12" Jensen speaker (backordered at Musician's Friend) would be it for me because of the dual volume controls to get a nice tube distortion, but again, I'm not sure about the pure Fender sound for that.

Marshall tube combos are definately too expensive for my budget, and I'm not sure about the versatility factor either.

Most recently I've been interested in the Peavey Classic 30, but some reviews are calling it a bit harsh sounding (e.g., "sort of screechy highs and unpronounced lows") with the stock speaker and not built well (e.g., tubes rattle, the tubes are also easily exposed and are situated right underneath one of the PC boards). I've also successfully been brainwashed into believing that a company like Peavey or Crate is not capable of making anything that could ever compete with a Fender (damn consumerism!). Actually, what's amazing are the mixed reviews you get from users of all these amps, even the Fenders. Add to this that so many people think a Fender is "supposed to" be the best amp for blues (etc.) and I don't know what else to do but bring my guitar down to the local Guitar Center and try every single amp they've got below a $600 price tag (though the store salesperson dynamics and pressure to buy won't help much).

Again, all comments welcome, especially from those of you who know tube combo amps and have suffered the pains of making a final selection. Thanks.

[D2o]

Petros,

Congratulations, man ... Good Post!

I can't help you, I'm afraid, as I have no tube amp experience, but I just wanted to pipe in and say that with all of the information you have given there, it would be impossible that you would not get some very specific and helpful feedback from those who do know ...

Your post is an excellent example of how to make a "subjectively" based query, and still set it up so that the people you are asking can relate to what you are trying to "feel", and answer accordingly.

Well done!

[petros]

DD842 said:

Your post is an excellent example of how to make a "subjectively" based query, and still set it up so that the people you are asking can relate to what you are trying to "feel", and answer accordingly.

LOL! I have some training as a scientist. We're taught to be more objective, even though that's more of a myth.

Again, all info is welcome here before I go down to see what floor models the local Guitar Center will let me crank up.

[D2o]

Jun 13, 2008 12:15:04 GMT -5 petros said:

LOL! I have some training as a scientist. We're taught to be more objective, even though that's more of a myth.

That may explain the logical layout. I like the way you set that up.

[JohnH]

Yep, your enquiry does deserve some careful responses, and I can relate totally to what you are talking about.

A small amp that blew me away recently was the Orange Tiny Terror, which is a small 15W head. The guy playing it at a gig nailed 'whole lotta love' using it with an LP and a modest marshall valvestate cab.

I'm the proud owner of the smallest current Marshall all tube combo, the DSL401. It is focussed squarely at hard rock, with an excellent clean channel and two overdrive channels. It can fizz, which is not what you or I want, but with carefull settings (not too much gain), and some EQ in the loop it can do classic Zep and ACDC. For recording, I like to track both a miced signal and the DI out and mix them later.

John

[ChrisK]

Probably, the most influential guitarist for me has been Jimmy Page, but when you listen to the sound he gets on the first and second albums compared to the point of Presence, if it wasn't for his playing style you'd almost think there's two different guitarists there.

I'm fairly certain that there were two different guitars involved....

The first was a Telecaster.


I've heard that the Fender Super Champ XD ($299) has straight tube signal path for one of the channels (the other has a digital signal path diversion). This is a push-pull 6V6 power amp + a twin triode.

The Vibro Champ XD ($249) is a single channel single-ended 6V6 + a twin triode. It has a spare triode compared to the Super, so I hope that it does something useful(er). It also has the digital thingy.

Since I like single-ended tube amps (2nd harmonic distortion isn't corrected), the Vibro seemed like an interesting thing to take apart and "fix".


I have and like an Epiphone Valve Junior.


I have a Mesa MK IV (which is waaay beyond $600) that I got for about $800 used/returned. It had a broken off pot shaft and had been returned a couple of times for "tone issues". Well, after a little negotiation, I did get it since I knew how to solder. While replacing the pot, I discovered an unsoldered bus wire in the lead channel front panel tone controls. This explained the "tone issues".

My point is that you might find a gently used unit. I like the MK IV since it can do class AB and A push-pull, triode as well as pentode power stage, and supports 6L6, EL34, and 6V6 output tubes. In brown-variac mode, with two 6L6s in triode mode, it puts out about 20-30 watts. Full speed is about 85 watts.

If I get stupid and sell my MK IV, I'd thought about getting the Mesa Express 25. This is a sweet 25 watt AB push-pull/5 watt single-ended amp with four neat/sweet preamp settings. These are about $1,100.


Some folks like the Peavey Windsor and Carvin amps.


While tube amps can be found for $600, any of note tend to start about $1,000.

[sumgai]

petros,

Well, that's another fine kettle of fish you gotten us into Ollie! ;D

The danger here is that if I call you something, the karma of reverse-stigmata will attach to me. So instead, I'll keep my opinions to myself, and tell you what you want..... just like any good consultant who listens to your outline of what you want, then feeds you the answer you knew all along was the correct one anyways. But you got to spend your money on a "professional", so your choice is validated.

First, you need to get over this "budget" thing, that's just gonna disappoint you, now and forevermore. Learn to eat mayonaisse and mustard sandwiches, and to use a bicycle instead of driving for 3 to 6 months. That right there will double your "allowance" for this "ultimate gotta have it" doo-hickey.

Now, I'm generally not in favor of bashing simulator-type products, indeed, I am a major proponent of a certain class of them. I can say with certainty, and I'll put any guarantee on it you might ask for, that in each and every case where someone gave up on a simulator, it was because they expected it to work like an analog device - plug it in, and play it, no more messing around required.

[glow=red,2,300]Wrong![/glow]
It is an absolute imperative one must invest about a Sagan of hours in learning how to use any simulator-type product, no matter how simple it may seem at the outset. All those glowing reviews, they were written by experienced people who had lots of prior experience, and beaucoup help from people even more experienced and knowledgable. No wonder they thought Device X is/was the bee's knees.

In short, if you want, or can have only, one be-all, end-all device, you want a Roland VG-99, period. End of discussion. I've had a VG-88 for several years, play it constantly, run one and participate in several more forums and groups about just this one toy, and I'd have to say honestly, that I probably know about 10% of all there is to know, even after all this time. That's not a testimonial of my laziness (although you can't discount that either!), but more an admission that Roland out-foxed me in the brains department. There it is, my soul laid out on the table for all to see and sunder, bare as it is.

But if...........

If you still refuse to go back to the wellspring of All Things Tonal, then what you want in the way of a tube amp is a used Crate VC-30 or VC-50. These come in several speaker configurations, usually the model number gives you a clue, like VC-5310 means a 50 watter with 3 10" speakers, VC-3112 means a 30 watter with 1 12" speaker, etc.

Get un-brainwashed (as opposed to having a dirty mind! ), and try these out. If you can walk away unimpressed, then I can't help you, sorry.

HTH






sumgai

[petros]

sumgai: Thanks for your perspective, which is at odds somewhat with my goal of finding a REAL amp (LOL). I did want to share this though:

From the Roland website:
"In the history of guitar modeling, no manufacturer has devoted more time, resources, and passion into this market segment than Roland — from the world’s first guitar modeling processor, the legendary VG-8, to its popular V-Guitar predecessors. Today, Roland proudly announces another milestone in guitar modeling and performance technology: the VG-99. With three powerful new processors at its core, plus expressive performance controls such as Ribbon Controller and D BEAM, this remarkable instrument raises the bar in guitar-modeling and performance technology."

Sounds a little like:

"DSM™ is a new and exclusive IK Multimedia technology used in the emulation of analog circuitry. DSM™ was designed to increase the response realism and playability of critical analog circuit models. Musicians always felt digital emulations of high quality analog gear (such as guitar amplifiers) to be good but not completely satisfying because of the lack of certain “playability” and “musicality” qualities that only the real thing provides. DSM™ has been designed to improve this aspect.DSM™ gives special and unique results when applied to circuit emulations where the non-linearity is the main characteristic of the processor, such as in distortion, fuzz, overdrive stomp boxes, tube guitar preamplifiers and power amps, and analog compressors and limiters. The DSM™ working principle is based on a new approach never applied to DSP “analog modeling” until now. Analog circuits, especially Tube and Class-A discrete ones, are not dynamically-linear, but have been modeled this way by today’s technology. An analog circuit’s character is never constantly shaped but varies depending on lots of parameters, first and foremost the strength, frequency and harmonic content of the incoming signal.DSM™ takes the next step. It continuously adapts the “shape” of the analog circuit instead of applying a static snapshot. By using more complex mathematical functions, a more articulated and musical response is possible, making DSM™ ideal for modeling tube preamps and tube power amps.

...This leads to an accuracy that cannot be found in any other modeling hardware or software today, respecting all the signal nuances exactly like a real analog circuit would do with a grade of realism and musicality never achieved before."

--from the Amplitube 2 user manual.

The Roland VG-99 may be the "best" emulator out there, but unless somebody produces a convincing demo of how great the "emulated" sound is from the Roland VG-99, I consider it to be in the same class of technology trying to simulate the kind of real thing that digital algorithms cannot currently do with enough fidelity compared to the kind of recordings made using the mic/ tube amp method. I would have to hear it to believe otherwise particularly given that my experiences have shown IK Multimedia, Native Instruments, and Waves currently fall short of achieving it--and I'm talking about years of my messing around with these plugins (even multi-tracking, blending different plugins, adding transients to increase attack, mixing in the clean signal, etc.) My guess is that whatever the Roland VG-99 does it probably sounds more like the Roland VG-99 than whatever it is attempting to "model."

But I do appreciate you turning me on to this and I want to read more about it. I realize technology does advance by leaps and bounds while I'm sitting at home playing my guitar. Also, I've never heard of the Crate VC-30, but I have heard of the Palomino. These may be other viable options but I'm looking to hear from people who have actually used and like the amps they chose.



JohnH and ChrisK: Thanks for the other responses above. I heard the Tiny Orange amp is very expensive and difficult to find.

I'll post some more later, but keep in mind I'm pretty much sold on finding a tube amp within the parameters I mention in my original post for more reasons than I've already mentioned.

[newey]

I heard the Tiny Orange amp is very expensive and difficult to find.

Orange Tiny Terror

Of course, online doesn't solve the "try it before you buy it" problem but several online retailers have liberal return policies.

[sumgai]

petros,

Just earlier today, I was discussing with a couple of fellow guitarists why I don't ever record any of my "works". The sad fact of life is, there is no absolute reference for any recording methodology........ meaning that no matter what I do, what I heard is not what got recorded. The playback is always a shade off, somehow or other, it's just not the same thing. That's because there's no given reference point, like say a specification that states "Your input must be at least -10dBA" or "Your microphone must be on-axis, in both planes, to the largest driver (usually the woofer), at exactly one meter from the speaker's grill cloth to the face of the mic's housing", etc.

Lacking that set of standards, IMHO all recordings are suspect to a rather large degree.

This is exactly why I don't post sound samples of my pickup combinations, nor do I bother with anyone else's samples, for that reason - sorry, guys. (But I do listen to see if you've got tasty chops! )

So, my opinion is that no matter where you go on-line, or even on a CD, you will not be hearing what the equipment will sound like in a real-life situation. If two samples are recorded by the same person, in real-time successive sessions, then the one thing that's different may stand out sufficiently that you can draw a conclusion from listening to those samples. Me, I'm gonna remain a Luddite on that one, and pretty much just whistle down the road on my merry way. ;D



BTW, it's not a digital algorithm, it's a mathematical one. Algorithms are methods of solving equations, or in a more general, less math intensive way, they are ways to find solutions to problems. Most algorithms are mathematical in nature, and being numbers and operators, they are easily stored in a digital format, and operated on by digital processors.

To say "it's done digitally" is not wholly correct, but it does work to set the method apart from the world of analog methods. And FBOW, it's the nature of the beast that once we corrupt the correct meaning of a word or phrase, the more vulgar (less correct, less acceptable until the inevitable sets it) meaning takes over as if it had been the correct meaning all along. On the innerwebs, that process takes only about 10 minutes. Gee, ain't progress wunnerful?

Another aside......... if we harness the power of mult-Gigaflop processing, 128 or even 256 bit-wide data sets, and DAC's that operate two to four orders of magnitude quicker than our ears, and we still can tell a difference, then the problem is not in the equipment, it's in the mathematical formula being called upon. A similar "race against the specifications" was held in the analog world of Hi-Fi equipment a few decades back..... score: Your perception of better sound - 1, audible distortion - 0. That race lasted more than 30 years, I predict that the race for making a simulator indistinguishable from the real thing will last less than half that. But no Golden Ears allowed! ;D

HTH




sumgai

p.s. Yes, Roland's Marketing Department went to the same school as the Amplitude Marketeers. If you're old enough to breath through your nose, you're old enough to know better, and to ignore all marketing hype. Right?

[petros]

sumgai: I have to think for about three days before I can respond to all you've said thus far (Thanks sincerely though). I would still be interested in an audio clip regardless of the inconsistencies, relativities, and subjectivities of the recording process. Knowing how something was recorded often compensates for the differences you hear from one recording to the next, but I follow you on how many factors that mess with the recording process affect the inevitable judgement factor.

newey: Outstanding! I have never heard of geartree.com, so thanks indeed for the resource. I was honestly under the impression that the Orange Tiny Terror was difficult to find in the U.S. based on the posts at another forum. I know the sound I describe above in my original post was sought after by guitarists in the 60's and early 70's and for some of them (even Jimmy Page I think at one point) Orange amps were the thing that gave them that tube saturated distortion now associated with heavy blues and classic rock. I gotta say though, this is truly ironic reading from the link you provided when I think about what sumgai wrote above:

"Have you ever wondered why your recorded guitar tone doesn't sound like your favorite band's album? Ask many producers what the hardest instrument to record is, and they'll tell you the electric guitar. If you are still struggling with hardware or software emulators, then its time to ditch those late 90s gadgets and upgrade to professional valve tone with the Tiny Terror."

I mean, really! Are these guys speaking directly to someone like me or is this just marketing hype? (Again, damn consumerism! It's destroying the world as much as it tortures my feeble mind.)

But seriously, there may be a plus here for me given that you can get the Orange amp as a 15 watt "head." This would give me the option of being able to use either a cabinet or (and I was thinking I might need this to record where I live) an isolation cabinet. I have more than enough skill to build me own isolation cab. In fact, years ago I took my solid state Yamaha G-100 head apart and built the chassis into a combo amp with a 10" Peavey Black Widow speaker. When I got the chance to crank the thing in someone's basement one day I found the tone was a lot like the clean guitar sound you hear Jimmy Page getting in the live recording of "The Rain Song" (though not quite because it had that solid state odd harmonic overtone thing going. I don't know how the heck I put up with that kind of tone for so long!)

newey: Do you (or anyone else reading this) have any experience using the Orange Tiny Terror or other Orange amps?

ChrisK: You got me thinking about my budget. Why spend $600 on an okay amp that most people will say is worthy and valuable when you can spend about $400 more and get something that has the potential to sound truly great? The cheaper Fender amps you mention I have not read anything encouraging about except for their price tag, and I guess I should have said that the sound of the amp is more important to me than the price tag. I just have limitations with $$$ obviously, which is even why I chose to modify the Squire Stagemaster Strat rather than simply shop for a $1000 Gibson or Fender (Additionally, that decision was a HUGE learning opportunity for me, in part, thanks to the members of the GuitarNuts forum).

You guys have been super helpful! ;D

[ashcatlt]

I'm afraid I can't help with the tube amp search. I just last week played through a tube amp (Fender Super) for the first time in something like 6 years. Sounded good, but not good enough to give up my V-amps.

I record a lot (nothing anybody wants to hear) and exclusively through amp modelers and have to say that in general I don't have the issue you've described. I haven't used the ITB modelers for tracking, thanks to latency, but have used both Amplitube and Waves GuitarAmp for "re-amping". Neither of them sound as good to my ears as my little blue Behringer blob.

Your main concern seems to be that the modelers sound fine by themselves, but don't quite work right in the context of the mix. This is a common problem encountered by all engineers recording any signal. It is not limited just to amp simulators. One of the mantras thrown around over on the TapeOp board is "never use solo!" Context is everything. It's something that takes years to figure out. Often it is, at least to a certain point, about EQ. Sometimes that "EQ" comes in the form of mic choice and placement, sometimes it comes at the console during mixdown. Most often it's a bit of both. Might also take a little bit of compression, or whatever. The point is that your favorite recorded guitar sounds are likely not just one amp through one microphone straight, clean, and flat to the final mix. They have been manipulated to some extent in order to get them to sit where they need to and cut through as necessary.

One suggestion we hear often is to use a bit less gain than you think you need.

What you do to the signal before it reaches the modeler can have a profound impact on the percieved performance. How are you getting into the computer? Are you presenting a nice high impedence to your pickups? A passive DI box might not do it. Could lead to loading and a loss of high frequency content which might make the end product somewhat lifeless and dull sounding.

I stumbled across a thread on another forum about this thing out there called the "Harmonic Converger". It's far too expensive for what it does. It's a passive 2nd order low-pass filter which cuts off around 4kHz and allows you to mix in the uneffected signal. It is said to "undigitalize" the sound of an amp sim. Out of curiosity, I created an EQ preset in Sonar and have used it with some success on tracks both from the V-amp and from ITB re-amps.

A quick aside here. You mentioned SRV. It's my understanding that his "signature sound" involved a whole room full of different amps.

That kind of leads me to my main argument against investing in a guitar amp. This being you're investing in A guitar amp. What happens when you'd like to try some other amp? Now you have to eat mayonaise and ride your bike for another year.

[mlrpa]

Greetings Petros

I just recently went thru the horrific job of amp hunting. My original thought was a 40 to 60 watt tube amp that sounded good to my ears, within the all important $400-$600 range. So I grabbed the guitar that started me hating my other amps, and went out amp shopping. (The guitar was my Gary Kramer Simulator.)

The first amp I found that suited my ears was a Traynor YCV80. Absolutely wonderfull tone and features. 80 watts, effect loop, tubes, all the bells and whistles. But alas, $850 was a bit too steep. Next was a Roland Cube 60 plugged into a Marshall 4x12 cabinet. Truely delightfull sound! Filled the room nicely, The Rolands built in amp sims are great, and the effects are quite good and usable. But... I didn't feel like lugging the system around. The price combined was around $700, but the size and weight was the determing factor against. So off to the K-Mart of the guitar world I went. Yes, that's right. GC. (Shuddering at the memory.)

First was the Peavey Valve King. Decently priced at around the $500 mark, but the all important clean channel had this upper register fuzz I hated. Phoenix and Stilleto are 2 brands GC is hawking, and if I wanted to play metal, may have worked. I hate metal, so they were quickly turned off and forgotton.

Next were the Crate 32 and 60. These are tubers with 32 and 60 watts respectively. Really retro looks, and if I found one that worked, I may have gotten one. (Reliablity seems to be a problem with Crates in general. To me it doesn't bode well if an amp in a store has a broken input jack, or a shot speaker. If it can't survive in the store, how can it survive being thrown in the trunk of my Jag?) The Mesa 5.25, while way above my self imposed price limit, sounded awful. Way too much hiss for a $1000 + amp.

Next was the Fender line. The Blues Jr, I hated. Followed by a Reverb and Vibroluxe reissue. While I liked them, it was that Fender tone that bothered me. I'm kinda a dinosaur with amps. I want the amp to do just that: amplify the guitar. I really don't want to hear the amp, I want to hear the guitar. Which Is why I hate Marshalls in general. Every guitar I put into one, sounded the same.

I came across an amp I feel absolutely in love with. A Drive G120VR. A 120 watt solid state, 2x12, with 2 channels, effects loop, everything I wanted, but not what I was looking for, if you know what I mean. And all for under $200. (Now, what to buy with the money saved???)

So, yes I understand the frustration you're experiencing. But I recommend walking into GC, with you main guitar in hand, and try everything. Tell the salesmoronspeople that you're just amp shopping. Good luck.

[ChrisK]

There are some neat build your own forums out there.

I never had the patience to do this (well, tubes interested me greatly in the 60's when I was designing with tubes). Now, the best stereo I have is in my car (old ears) since I can't tell the difference.

I have a VG-88, it's neat and nice.

Yeah, the digital thingies don't quite sound right. There are two reasons for that; the limitation of the resolution (16 to 24 bits) is still discernible since 24 bits gives a theoretical range of 144 dB (well, it's bipolar and we'd like some headroom please, so it's no more than 130dB), and the mathematical models are more like piecewise implementations thereof.

To run an actual floating point complex number algorithm in real time for 6 signals that are not harmonically related(inter-modulation is) is, uh, hard and expensive. This would include full pSpice models for each electronic component and the inter-coupled effect of every component on every other one connected to the same network (not just node). And, uh oh, tubes are varying and quite nonlinear (why we hated them in the 60's and ran headlong to solid-state).

While modeling is pretty good these days, they still don't have a real firm grip on the artifacts created in a tube amp.

Tube amps vs modeling; they're just not the same. I want them to be the same, but they're not.


Here's a link to Allen Amps who sell point to point tube amp kits. I have an Encore kit which I've been not completing for over a year now. I have the chassis built, but have not installed it and the speaker and tank into the enclosure. I did bring it upstairs to begin to "look" (an action-less glance) at it a couple of months ago.
www.allenamps.com/

[newey]

Petros-

No personal experience with the Orange TT, or with Geartree.com, I just put the link up because they are available and the price was within what you proposed, originally, as your budget.

Your post is interesting to me as I, too, am looking for a tube amp of about the same power/size as you are, although I don't know that I want to get into the price range that Sumgai is suggesting.

Bottom line, all the replies here can do is serve to narrow your list of amps to try.

The Links Page has many of the boutique tube makers listed. Some of these folks offer a 30-day at-home trial, return it if you don't like it, which you might want to consider.

[petros]

ashcatlt: I am at the point where I am almost tempted to use the "garbage in = garbage out" maxim when it comes to relying on EQ or compression to make up for the lack of solid fidelity that I now hear when trying to use amp simulators. Admittedly, about three years ago before I tried Amplitube and Guitar Rig, I was singing praises over the free Simulanalog G-Suite JCM900 plugin. I was amazed at the time just how much this thing easily sounded like a nice overdriven amp, and indeed it does. If you want to hear a small audio clip I did at the time to demonstrate what this plugin can do, check this out: www.fileden.com/files/2007/5/23/1104895/Simulanalog%20JCM900%20sample%20refined.mp3 That was recorded right into the Hi-Z input of the DMP2 preamp built into an M-Audio Duo. (Not the best, but still a nice clean signal. I didn't get much better results later upgrading to the much praised FMR RNP preamp.) Plus, I thought using convolution plugins in the recording chain (like the CPU intensive SIR) to simulate amp cabinets nailed what I thought was no less than a miracle. The problem still was that when you solo the track it sounds great, but put the track into a mix, use EQ and compression to get what sounds like a good tone, eventually export the mix (and I'm recording at 24 bits/ 32 bit file resolution in Sonar 6) using Pow-r3 dithering, listen back, and typically I'd still get splat from the electric guitars. There's something hopelessly missing in the sound quality using this method to record, and if there's some secret to maximizing the potential these plugins have nobody seems to be forthcoming with the info (including manufacturers themselves). I'm talking about being able to preserve the focus and definition of the sound keeping the guitar up front after the mixdown/dithering process. I'm just no longer satisfied with the results. Hence, I'm taking the advice I hear more and more from others that nothing sounds quite like recording a great sounding amp. Maybe I'm not making it clear that I'm one of those hopefuls trying to push the limits of resolution and tone from the electric guitar that you can get making digital recordings in your bedroom (as ridiculous as I know that sounds to some recording engineers). And yes, I am after a "signature sound," but I think such a thing comes more from one's playing style than your amp. I just haven't paid enough attention to my tone all the years I've been playing, and my recordings are suffering because of this.

mlrpa: That's some story. I can understand that amp hunting can be harrowing when you don't know what sound you're looking for, and that's an important reason I'm looking for advice before I'm inundated with floor model after floor model, get listening fatigue, and maybe even get fooled by what feedback I get from a salesperson. Interesting to hear that you hated the Fender Blues Jr. given so many positive reviews I've read at Harmony Central. Maybe others are not being honest enough (i.e., the belief that a good guitarist is "supposed to" like a Fender amp)? Like I said, I'm a bit skeptical about the Fender tone for classic rock and heavy blues, but I haven't tried this amp myself using my guitar. Glad to hear you finally found your Drive G120VR, but that amp is way too powerful for my purposes, and I'm biased toward getting a tube design after too many years of listening to the artifacts and odd harmonics of an electric guitar being pushed through a solid state amp.

newey: I gotta say I'm getting closer and closer to just ordering the 15 watt Orange head from Geartree.com along with an Orange 1x12 cab (has a Celestion Vintage speaker), especially given they have a 30 day return policy. If I can get a 15 watt head I don't need to search for a combo. I think this amp would get me the overdrive/distortion I'm looking for, but I'm not sure what the thing sounds like clean. It's got 2 EL84 and 2 12Ax7 tubes, and I'm assuming at low gain and high volume it will still be punchy but stay relatively clean. Plus, I'm thinking I can alter the sound by using a different speaker cabinet if necessary.

Still wondering if anyone out there has used an Orange amp before. I found out the Tiny Terror is actually made in China (not England), but the review said the thing is still pretty solid.

[JohnH]

Petros - I haven't played through a TT, but having heard that one at a gig, I intend to try one. There's heaps of YouTube tests of it, which of course couldnt really fully capture a live sound. But here's one that is not bad IMO:



From what I have discerned, they are really good for classic rock crunch. Maybe lacking a bit in headroom for fully clean sounds. Controls and EQ are minimal. I took a look at one in a shop, and it seems to be very strongly built with good solid switches, and heavy like a large brick.

cheers

John

[newey]

Petros-

As I'm sure you've already discovered, most music stores are only going to offer the major brands, so if you're not wild about Fender, Marshall et al, your other options are going to be a bit limited. My local store does carry Matchless, which I have tried and liked a lot- but way out of my price range.

Most of the boutique tube amps you're going to be ordering sight unseen, with the prospect of having to return it if you don't like it. But this does give you the advantage of trying it at home, for your own uses. Trying them out in a music store is going to be a limited try-out in any event.

ChrisK mentioned Carvin. I've got my eye on this:

Carvin Vintage 16

They give you 10 days to try at home, but you have to pay the return shipping if you don't like it.

[RJB]

Check out the youtube videos by Robchappers (the reference there), he does work for Orange so they are a bit biased. But check out the "full volume demos", he runs two bigger heads into a 4x12 cab, then tries the TT through that same cab. His reaction is priceless.

[petros]

JohnH: Thanks for the link to the Orange Tiny T demo by Mikelivesley.

Delightfully informative video (though the guy's just so revealingly self conscious about his playing ability). He's pushing the amp head through a 1x10 Marshall speaker cab, and there appears to be a bit more twang in the tone than I would prefer at clean settings, but I'm sure a different cab would do the trick there. It's not a bad tone at all for single coils. Plenty of gain available from the Orange Tiny T to fatten it all up (and by the way, being a mindful American I'm somewhat put off calling the thing the Tiny "Terror," a label the thing doesn't deserve in these times. So, I think the Brits will join me in officially renaming the thing the "Tiny T" in conversation, which makes me think of the British obsession with tea and Tiny Tim from the Dickens story, even more foolish I guess.) At moderate gain levels the amp does indeed remind me a lot of Jimmy Page's tone on much of Zeppelin II, which I really like. I was concerned that the distortion achievable would be too "fizzy," but that doesn't appear to be the case. There also seems to be the potential for great sustain. I would have liked to hear the amp at a somewhat higher gain setting but then backed off on the guitar volume, and I can't tell from the vid how noisey the amp is (an obvious concern for recording purposes).

RJB: Thanks for the info, but I don't recommend anyone view the RobChappers "full volume" vid for the sake of finding out what the Orange Tiny T can do unless your idea of good tone is to just crank up all the settings on your amp. The sound quality in the vid is so poor compared to the one created by MikeLivesly that it almost made me think twice about getting the amp (He literally says at one point, "You all ready for some dirt?" WTF? Dirt? And this guy works for Orange?).

I wish more people would make short vids like these.

[RJB]

Chappers is a Orange Amps 'Clinician' (?) he goes to the trade shows to demo their gear at the booth. If you check his other vids you'll see some of that. I heard about him through a PRS forum.

Another candidate to muddy the waters is the Blackheart Little Giant. Here's a Youtube video demo. This guy does custom pedals mods (i.e. like Keeley). He makes custom pedals for country session guitarist Brent Mason. Some other comparative demo can be seen on youtube with The Toneking. He's another dime the sucker kind of guy though, but good quality videos.

I like what I've heard with the TT, I'll just have to start saving those nickels and dimes until I get there.

[petros]

Thanks for more info, RJB.

I gotta say, my only skepticism about the Orange Tiny T is that I keep reading it is MADE IN CHINA, MADE IN CHINA NOT ENGLAND, CHINESE MADE. How do I know that the amp in the two demos mentioned above is also the one MADE IN CHINA? Why would a Chinese made model sound "inferior" compared to a British made? Was this thing ever NOT made in China? And what's so bad about a guitar amp being MADE IN CHINA? Are my concerns (once again) just the result of too many years of American consumeristic propaganda (i.e., the message claiming the BEST gear is always MADE IN AMERICA).

I know someone here said that Chinese techs are typically experts at soldering.

Does anyone know how to check if the Chinese made model contains the same exact components (e.g., the same tubes)?



I see this amp head is readily available on Ebay and selling for about $100 less than what you see at Geartree.com Can't always be sure of what the heck you actually get buying this way though.



'Just begun checking the Orange website. Good short interview with rock veteran engineer Eddie Kramer about getting a great sound from an electric guitar www.orangeamps.com/features.asp?ID=38 He says about amp selection: "The great blues players generally used one amp and one guitar, like Buddy Guy and BB King. They didn't vary it too much other than volume, but things became more complex over the last 30 years and now we have a tremendous number of great amps to pick from." -- and I've said above that it's easy to get inundated by the selection. Better to do a bit of research before you just try everything (though he does suggest a guitarist in search of a sound should do that).

I also see from the Orange homepage even Madonna uses Orange amps. That pretty much settles it for me. She's got great tone. (You know, second time reading this didn't sound like the joke I intended.)

[ChrisK]

The Blackheart does seem like an interesting candidate.
www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Blackheart-BH5112-5W-1x12-Little-Giant-Tube-Combo-Amp?sku=481675

Allen makes a point to point upgrade kit for it.
www.allenamps.com/blackheart.php

[petros]

I think I might share this guy's view on the Blackheart:
"...My only problem is there is no gain control. But, hi-gain really isn't what this amp is meant for. Its meant for that smooth, bluesy overdrive. If you want hi-gain for a studio, go with an Orange Tiny Terror. But if you want something a bit more tame, this is it!"

It would be great to only spend about half as much on an amp compared to the Orange, but someone at another forum also had this to say about 5 watt tube amps:

"There's this new market for 5watt Class A Tube amps. Be Careful! I find many of these lack a lot of flexibility because of the no EQ thing. I find also most (epiphone Valve JR. and Fender Champion 600) of these under $500 class A amps, don't sound nearly as good as highend class A Tube amps like Bad Cats... or Gibson Gold Tones ect. They lack the dynamic response, that most good Class A Amp is. (A lot of 5 watt Class A amps you should crank the amp all the way and then your finger tips and picking strumming can control how clean the amp is or how distorted it is... its a very different experience from using a Mesa Boogie Dual Stack, theres a whole nother element they don't have. And most of these amps the distortion is a very very pleasing power tube distortion that you can't get from AB amps.) I've found that most of the budget amps lack these elements, thus in my eyes it defeats the purpose of buying them. If I don't get the dynamic range, that most players use class A amps for, then I'd rather have a small tube amp like the Blues JR or the V16 Palamino which is much more flexible... because of independent EQ, and sometimes gain."

I was also hoping whatever amp I get could easily transfer from recording to stage, and I don't think 5 watts would cut it. The 15 watts from the Orange seems adequate though. I'd still be interested in hearing what the Blackheart can do.

I checked the vid mentioned above for the Blackheart Little Giant. Good quality audio in the video, and this is the kind of video I'm finding helpful. The Blackheart's high gain settings sound like a howling crunchy distortion, but maybe a bit small or thin and papery to my ears. (My first impression was that there's something lacking.) Also doesn't sound as bright (upper midrange presence) as the Orange Tiny T. Sounds like the chords "burst" more with the small rig MikeLivesley is using in his vid. Definately sounds better for heavy metal. Might be the Celestion vs. the Eminence speaker. I'd want to try the Blackheart with my guitar. Price is pretty incredible, but you get what you pay for? The 5 watt Little Giant head is $179 at Musician's Friend, the 15 watt "Handsome Devil" is $299.

Who is this "amp savant," Pyotr Belov, who designed this thing?




Another question regarding Chinese made gear: Is it likely the tubes in the Orange Tiny T will be Chinese made and if replaced with the kind of tubes you see in Allen or Fender amps it will improve the sound?

Found another nice quality vid for the Tiny T at the Orange website www.orangeamps.com/products.asp?Action=View&ID=78

[lpdeluxe]

Here's a slightly different take. I do a lot of recording, and to my ear it's all about making the guitar part fit into the mix. I'll do whatever jiggery-pokery I need to for that to happen (at least to my satisfaction).

The problems with having an ideal sound in your head is that a) you may not be able to record a live amp that sounds like that once it's recorded and b) even if you do it may not be the right sound for the track.

I have recorded a number of guitarists who were enamored of their amp sound; often the recording is disappointing to me because, as noted, **that sound** may not be appropriate, or their amp may be noisy (I recorded one guy who insisted on using his crackling Fender combo -- turned out he was stone deaf in one ear).

So my approach is more eclectic than the "this is my dream amp" philosophy. I experiment with stomp boxes, different amps and my (gasp!) Floor Pod Plus until I get a sound that works, by which I mean that the guitar part, rather than simply making notes, is testifying.

So I'm as likely to plug into distortion box>direct box>mixer or Pignose G40V>Danelectro reverb pedal>mic as I am to pull out the Super Reverb or the (now traded off) HD130 Reverb or any of the amps I own or can borrow.

Not to judge, just to contribute my virtual $0.02.

[petros]

lpdeluxe: By all means if something works for the signal chain and for the sake of fitting the song and recording, then do it. I don't have one specific dream sound in my head that I want, only a general idea. My initial point was that, at least for me and what I'm after, the amp sim plugins are NOT doing it, and I'm not the only one who says this. Call me something like a purist if you want (I'm not) but I'm under the impression based on my experiences that the sound I'm looking for will not be possible to capture unless it is right there smack in front of my face from its source--not: Try plugin after plugin and amp sim after amp simulator rearranged and blended until you've got the same basic splat you started with but that you've convinced yourself MUST sound better given all your tweaking. I have tried for too long to tweak plugins and create chains to compensate for what I think is utterly lacking in terms of the current technology. I just don't FEEL anything anymore trying to record that way. Listen to the samples I've provided above. They all sound like splat to me. If you were to EQ them and fit them into a mix they would get even more splatty and lifeless. I need better tone from the foundation of the sound.

The foundation of the electric guitar as an instrument was originally designed to have one half of the total instrument coming through a guitar amplifier of some kind. Substituting the amplifier for a digital device has opened up a huge can of worms for designers and aspiring musicians. I'm not saying it can't be done satisfactorily within the computer realm as replacing the miked guitar amp. I'm saying that I personally hear the lack, wherever its coming from, and I've waited too long to just try going back to basics and record the way I know guitarists have always done it and gotten some great results. I know what it's like to go into a pro recording environment and record a miked guitar and get great results, that's what I'm after for the home recording environment, even if I need an isolation cabinet to get it. I might not if I can find something 15 watts or so that has both a volume and master volume.

I also thought of this: As time goes on with generation after generation of guitarists there will be more people who adapt to the sound that amp simulators produce. That tolerance and habituation to a certain type of sound has the potential to shift what is considered a great tone because a "great tone" is quite relative. For me, a "great tone" is something like a voice with all it's midrange qualities intact (as opposed to scooped out). You take that voice and make it sing with as much power as you might need but with enough clarity so that there's still detail and noticeable sonic variation (as opposed to just a loud biting roar that unleashes all the sound and power you can afford, which was what the RobChappers vid made me think of). I am sure there are some guitar styles that amp sims are better suited for, but the blues/rock genre in which the guitar tone is such a central focus? I don't think so. You still need the real amp.

By the way, I stopped into my local Guitar Center (place felt like a zoo with animals running around and wires and gear thrown all over the place, perhaps because it was lunchtime), and they had not one BlackHeart floor model to check out. Someone told me that because they were an "older" model the Internet is the only place you can find them now. Very frustrating. I did manage to check out another video where the guy replaced the Eminence speaker that comes stock with the BlackHeart combo with a Celestion G12H30, which sounds like a good idea to me. I have never heard anybody praise Eminence speakers.

[ChrisK]

Regarding the Blackheart and Allen Amps.

One of the things that Dave Allen does in his Blackheart mod kit is the "RAW" control.

What this is is a much larger value mid tone pot. In the Fender way of things tone stack, the tone stack is a passive cut structure that varies the cuts relative to each other with much interaction. Elevating the bottom of the tone stack (where the middle tone control is located) significantly increases the gain at the loss of mid cut and the other tone control's effect. Some like this, some don't.

One advantage of a point to point amp is the ability to get in there and change stuff.

The Blackheart with the Allen kit (which ends up being about $500) gives essentially a home-built kit amp.



I don't recall if this has been mentioned, but Epiphone has the Blues Custom amp which is an EL34-based push-pull that is selectable between 15 and 30 Watts (if I recall). This has two Eminence 12" speakers and two channels.


www.epiphone.com/default.asp?ProductID=270&CollectionID=13
Designed and engineered in the USA by Gibson
30W Class AB (pentode) or 15W Class A (triode) switchable All-tube circuitry
2 channels, [Well, 1 1/2 maybe]
Tube rectifier
Mid control for channel 2
Dual 12 special-designed Eminence Lady Luck speakers
Tube-powered reverb
Independent/interactive EQ switch
Standby switch
Shared 3-band EQ
Master volume
Dual 4 ohm, dual 8 ohm, and 16 ohm speaker outs; [Hail a cab' boys]
12AX7 preamp tubes with DC powered filaments
EL34 power tubes
Footswitch jack (switch not included)
High-tension fuse [Ooooohhhh!]
16-gauge bent and spot-welded chassis
11-ply plywood cab construction

[lpf3]

petros-

I was gonna stay out of this one as I don't have the product knowledge or the recording experience that you've been finding all over this forum .

I do think it's worth mentioning that the examples you cited in an earlier post , ( Page , Clapton , Vaughan ) are old recordings . Old analog recordings to tape .

My own expriences as a recording hobbyist began with a Fostex 4-track cassette , to my current Boss BR1200CD and Pro Tools LE . And 'tho I'm a better guitarist now & have " learned more " about recording , I find that the cassettes I made are much better sounding to my ears than the CD's I make now .

As I said , I don't really know what's out there these days , but is it possible that you should be barking up the analog tree ? My son's band recorded their album at a pro studio ( $ $ $ )- recorded into a dinosaur analog board then into Pro Tools & sounds great . Is there any analog gear ( affordable ) That might be what you're lookin' for , or am I way off base ?

just a thought


-lpf3

[newey]

lpf-

Is there any analog gear ( affordable )

Yeah, there is such, but remember he's recording in his bedroom. Space limitations could quickly become an issue, a lot of that stuff is pretty sizable.

Petros has made it pretty clear he's after a tube recording-size amp, I don't think he's going to be dissuaded from trying to get his desired sound that way.

BTW, don't know whether it's true or not, but I have heard that, on the early Zep recordings Page was using a 5W Fender Champ, miked.

[petros]

newey: You're spot on there about my being sold on buying a small tube amp of some kind, and yes going all analog would not only be a very costly investment. I don't think looking for a great guitar sound requires such measures. If I wanted analog tone from the recording side there's plugins that warm things up a lot like tape saturation does. If you've got a great guitar sound going it should be possible to capture it using the digital format, arguably with more detail and fidelity than is possible with analog gear.

ChrisK: Epiphone Blues Custom looks even more promising than the Orange Tiny T (and the Blues Custom is a complete amp with 2 -12's for the same price as only the Tiny T amp head). I like what they're saying here:

"Designed to offer both vintage and contemporary boutique-grade tones at an extremely affordable price, the Custom Blues 30 fits the bill for a broad range of playing styles. 'This amp runs the gamut, from entry players who are looking for a solid, dependable amp, to pros who need to dial in a myriad of sounds quickly and effectively,' says Alan Shipston, Gibson’s Product Development Manager. 'The combo excels in the blues realm, but it can rock out or get just as mellow as you want it to, making it an amp for the everyman.'

Put aside all the old distinctions of 'British'- or 'American'-flavored amps. The Blues Custom 30 offers a range of best-of-both-worlds voicings that run from classic British crunch to the solid lows and sparkling highs of vintage ’60s-era American tube amps, all topped off with the contemporary high-gain capabilities of Channel II. Couple this with impressive flexibility from a control panel that’s extremely straightforward to work with, and you’ve got an amp for all seasons."

--Sounds real promising but I'd need to hear it with my guitar. Just like with the Tiny T, if I can get it with a good return policy then I can demo it without worry. Maybe I can find some reviews or vids on the thing. Thanks much for the suggestion. I definately want to research this more. Of course, the Epiphone name has never struck a chord with me for amps, but they say they are American made (whatever the heck that means in these days of economic turmoil).

I did think how the amp mod thing would be a project for me just like the guitar mod was, but I feel a bit overwhelmed working on electronics to that extent. It would be something really new for me, and if it requires test equipment I'd need to invest in more than just the amp. The learning experience might be worth it though.