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Post by 4real on Aug 21, 2008 23:00:35 GMT -5
OK....a long time ago, my poor strat got yet another experimental over ambitious wiring makeover...the result ended up in a complicated mess then over taken by numerous other projects...and has been hanging on the lounge room wall for almost a year! I built these novel pot/switches. Originally I wanted a discrete way of activation a sustainer requiring a 4pdt on switch and a dpdt harmonic switch and a 1k pot. So, I got the idea of trying to make a pot that could do all of this. The result was a "clever" push-pull (the guts transplanted to 1k valued) giving me the pot and the dpdt function. Then, inspired by radio knobs, I made a plate to hold a pair of sub-miniture dpdt toggles and a plate the would switch them together when turned...the result looks and works like this... The upshot was the result in the last pair of pics...the right pic has the pot pulled up...the lower part has a small allen head bolt that twists between two positions for the 4pdt switch... As there are two twisting parts, the pots are attached to the guitar by a rear support...see in the top photo. Of course, having succeeded in this and thinking I was most clever, I then built two more 5ookA versions for the other two knobs. Along the way, I changed pickups to two fender noisless JB model (N and M) and a seymour duncan JB bridge HB. The result is if you ignore the sustainer knob and switching... 2x4pdt and 2xdpdt switches and two 500ka pots.But...if this wasn't enough...I also installed a super switch selector...4p5t!!! I did install a piezo in the neck socket, so this could be attached to a preamp and mixed with the electric sound. The battery for the sustainer hides behind the tremolo in a clever kind of rout. So...the challenge...What the heck do I do with all these switches...or even some of them...should I simply pull it all out? In the top photo, what I did was wire this multi-colored ribbon cable to all of the little switch poles... Any or all of these mods could be used or scraped...if I use the piezo thing...it would only really need the dpdt to turn it on. Bear in mind also, that there is not a lot of room in this contemporary mahogany rear control cavity strat... SO...any thoughts would be appreciated... Perhaps this is simply further evidence that "just because you can do something, does not mean that you should"...a maxim I ry to remind myself of every time I look at this thing! It is a great playing guitar, and I really have not had a chance to play it since the pickup change over...being noiseless, all pickups are humbucking. pete
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Post by newey on Aug 21, 2008 23:33:06 GMT -5
After all that work? No, I believe you should press onward, leaving no lug unsoldered . . . As far as an actual plan for wiring this beast, well, it's past my bedtime . . .
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Post by JohnH on Aug 22, 2008 1:33:01 GMT -5
Pete - I dont quite get what these uber-knobs do.
So when you pull, it it the dpdt that switches?, and when you turn, is it the 4pdt that operates, at the start of the knob travel? ie like a radio volume control that is also the on/off that clicks when volume goes from zero?
John
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Post by 4real on Aug 22, 2008 4:22:51 GMT -5
Here are a couple more pics of the uber switch pots (like the name... )... You can see a pair of dpdt toggles, on the table near them are some parts made for another one...the slots move the toggles simultaneously on both of the dpdt switches. So...the pot functions as normal as a normal 500kA. The dpdt function operates as normal two...up and down. The little surround at the bottom of the knob moves about 5mm and clicks with the toggles operating the dual dpdt=4pdt switches. All the pot and switch functions are separate, so no...not like you turn the knob to zero. The top plate (with the allen bolt indicator of position) turns the slotted plate underneath that moves the toggles. They are connected by a metal tube (made from a pen body!) and the pots themselves are held in place buy the aluminium brackets on the back. The result is the same as if they were separate 4pdt toggle switches but without having to drill or modify the face of the guitar. They worked out kind of attractive...the parts are aluminium but the top surface of the bit around the knobs is tortoiseshell stuff with a coat of glass like epoxy on it. They also have a reassuring click in their action and you would have to intentionally move them. From a distance, you don't even see that they are there at all. I used the allen bolt as this guitar has had a subtle makeover with all the screws (pickups, selector, etc...even the roller string trees!) mounted with these 3mm bolts...I plan to mount the backplates on the same way. Overkill?! pete
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Post by D2o on Aug 22, 2008 8:52:57 GMT -5
SO...any thoughts would be appreciated... Well ... at first I thought the suspenders clashed with the rest of the decor, but I'm really starting to like them. ;D Kudos, Pete. You always seem to have some insane guitar project going on ... I love that! DD
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 22, 2008 14:32:09 GMT -5
What was the question? Oh yeah, I'd a'glue 'em to a nice block of walnut, stain it real purdy, and mount it on your motorcar's dashboard (or whatever it's called in them thar parts). ....as a constant reminder that... "Judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment." Nah, these are clever... really! I'd suggest that you try to market them, but the guitar parts pillagers supplier's would charge $400,000 for them.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 22, 2008 15:38:17 GMT -5
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 22, 2008 17:34:18 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by 4real on Aug 22, 2008 17:47:26 GMT -5
Well...I don't think I will be doing these again...because of the back mounting they only really work in this guitar...also, the amount of effort to build them by hand I couldn't charge enough for them! I will try and take solace in that if I do end up stripping the things out of there! JohnH... guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=3140This looks like the kind of thing...a few of the features that I really liked were the N and B over the middle only positions...I really like combining the pickups and stuff. I like some of the out of phase things too...my tele's oop switch is fantastic. It is not completely transferable though...although it does suggest some dangerous ideas (if I cut the slots in the plate that moves the toggles I could potentially have a three position switch that moved the dpdt one after the other...but I am seriously not going to do that!) The original intention was to perhaps have a switch for the guitar to go from series to parallel mode...and another for phase like sounds perhaps. As this guitar actually does have a sustainer in it, so effectively it is 1xvol and 1x tone guitar now. 2xdpdt and 2x4pdt and the SS 4p5t and two 500kA pots with the sustainer left out of the equation. So...something like the selections on this scheme... Mode switch down A. Bridge B. Bridge + Middle C. Bridge + Neck D. Middle + Neck E. Neck Mode switch up A. Bridge + Middle + Neck B. Bridge * Middle C. Bridge * Neck D. Middle * Neck E. Bridge * Middle * Neck This looks ideal...this would appear to be a combination of the SS and a dpdt as shown. One of the features of this guitar is the 3x humbucking pickups low noise feature. Perhaps a switch that put the HB into parallel mode rather than split would be cool...I'm not sure...the JB HB is supposed to split well, or so I have heard. There is some concern though in integrating the sustainer, I need to be able to override the selector and shorting out the HB coil and stuff might make it very difficult when it comes to that part...hmmm) Then there is the phase things...with all these combinations, there should be some great sounds hidden in there with phase switches...however...tricky OK...so perhaps as a start I should wire up the super switch as per that diagram with the series parallel switch. I have heard that the neck out of phase tends to sound good...so perhaps if this is preferable to the wiring as is I could use one of the 4pdt things (under the volume control) to phase the N at the same time by default and wire that to another phase switch to reverse it...or is that a silly idea? Perhaps some input from chrisK since he has heard the selections may help. These pickups are warm~hot but I like a clear sound and generally play clean so I don't really want the thing to sound too over powered or get muddy. How about...phase switches on the N and M with the two dpdt push pulls and use the 4pdt for the series parallel trick and I use the other 4pdt to activate the piezo... Perhaps, I could use the extra dpdt on the series parallel 4pdt to move the tone pot between a master and a particular pickup in light of... If I could get a recommendation or explanation of this...and then maybe this with a pair of dpdt phase switches on the neck and middle pickups with the P-P's...again leaving the spare 4pdt to do something with the piezo at another time... Anyway...just brain storming and confusing myself here... The diagram though looks like the ideal place to start and well on the way to the kind of selections I'd have chosen anyway... Any thoughts or time taken to read this or consider it is greatly appreciated... peteEDIT...just saw the above post... ;D...bigger than mine there chrisk...but it does suggest some bizzare ideas...not all of them guitar related!!!
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Post by newey on Aug 22, 2008 20:17:49 GMT -5
4real- My mind is spinning and my eyes glaze over. I think you need to "modularize" the design of this a bit so as to make sense of the complexity. Just thinking out loud here, you could use one "Uber pot" for the 2 coils of the HB, another for the 2 SCs, and the third for the piezo pup. The 5-way SS could then select between the various modules, and put them in series or parallel. Don't know that this is exactly what your after, but I'm just trying to think of how you could break this down. Reductionism is, after all, at the root of most scientific discovery . . . In other words, think in terms of pieces of the puzzle rather than trying to see the whole all at once. Usually around here, we get: "Here's what I want, now what switching capabilities do I need?" You've given us: "Here's all these switches, now what do I want?" And that's a guitar of a different color.
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Post by 4real on Aug 23, 2008 0:28:19 GMT -5
No...actually it really is brown...and hangs on the wall over my head as I watch TV... Mocking me!!!I know what you mean...and it is kind of around the wrong way to go about it...but that's the challenge!!!! It is a bit of a mess really...but I think that the general idea of the M.R. mod is pretty cool, and perhaps that sorts out the superswitch and general pickup selections and I should start with that... Maybe some input as to which pickup is most valuable to out of phase, etc. Shame to have the switching power of 4pdt switches and not use them, I guess I was thinking of the kind of thing fender has done with the S-1 which would be an equivalent (except that I have 2 of them!)...still if I only have to wire half the switch, it will only be half the work! So...is this coming together as a plan...wire the SS 4p5t as per diagram, use one switch as a series parallel thing and another 2 dpdt for oop switching on the middle and neck pickups...or some kind of coil split on the bridge HB... pete
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 23, 2008 15:11:49 GMT -5
Oh, you mean the Mike Richardson wiring with phase scheme! Parallel on a JB is nice. Oh, you mean the Mike Richardson wiring with phase scheme! That's a lot of poles, what are you, Fender? That would be why I did it this way in the Mike Richardson wiring with phase scheme! I recommend the Mike Richardson wiring with phase scheme! I tried reading thru this and started to fear an aneurysm, but then I realized that you're just playing "let's try to fool the ChrisK". Since the Mike Richardson wiring with phase scheme does exactly the combinations that you listed using JUST a 4P5T super switch and a single, lone, paltry DPDT for mode, you could implement as I did, with the tone DPDT pots as you like. Unfortunately, the Mike Richardson wiring with phase scheme ONLY uses three DPDT switches (with phasing) and the super switch. This would free the 4PDT GeWhippenSnapperSwitches for other bipolar uses. You know, like removing one drive coil and one sensing coil from the mix for sustaining. Did I mention that I would recommend the Mike Richardson wiring with phase scheme? Fool the ChrisK, Hah!
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Post by 4real on Aug 23, 2008 17:21:08 GMT -5
Just to clarify then...you would recommend the Mike Richardson wiring with phase scheme? I thought it was JohnH who recommended that from the start...who the heck then is Mike Richardson? Hence I cut and pasted directly from your MR OoP as per JohnH's recommendation...no fool you! Alright...now this is good to know - So...as a plan, wire the super switch as per the fanatstic ChrisK colorful diagram linked...never mind...I think I can find it...as posted by JohnH and attributed to MR...
- Use the volume knobs PP to series/parallel the JB HB before the SS selector.
- Use half the 4pst at the volume control for series/parallel for the whole guitar...it seems only to require this after the SS selector.
- Use the tone controls PP dpdt function as a phase switch on the neck pickup.
- Leave the tone 4pdt for the piezo at a later stage...
This still leaves more than half the 4pdt switch potential to play with later...perhaps the other half of the series mode for instance could be used to turn the master tone into a pickup specific tone on one of the settings...similarly with the piezo thing BTW... This is how the piezo is fitted...this is easier than a bridge mounted system and gives a more "woody" sound with out the bridge handling noise and piezo quackiness...still need a preamp to prevent loading of course. ... I often use the pic of this guitar's wiring as a warning to others not to get too enthusiastic with the wiring stuff...this guitar has been in mothballs because it was overtaken by other things and projects...but mainly because I couldn't face working all this stuff out. It seems a shame not to use the full power of the 4pdt...I was influenced by fenders S-1 4pdt thing I suspect...but this will make wiring it a lot easier and more than half of these wires will be able to be removed. The rest of the switch power could perhaps be used to change the tone control allocation in different modes (perhaps a master in one mode, a neck control in another, a piezo tone or volume control in another)...but no need to get carried away to start with I guess. The sustainer in this guitar is a prototype of my pickup conversion thing...an ultra thin coil mounted to a strat type pickup... Hopefully completing this guitar will forward the project to make this into a conversion kit... pete
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 23, 2008 22:51:23 GMT -5
Uh, yeah. Yep Use half the 4pst at the volume control for series/parallel for the whole guitar...it seems only to require this after the SS selector.[/quote] I presume that you mean 4P DT at the volume control. The DPDT mode switch is neither before or after the Super Switch, it is within the same module (part and parcel). Personally, I'd use the volume PP pot for the parallel/series mode. To activate, you already have a grasp on the knob, and can easily also adjust the master volume if needed as you go between series and parallel. I'd use the 4PDT for the JB series/parallel. I'd use one tone control s PP DPDT function for the neck and one tone control s PP DPDT function for the bridge or middle. Mike Richardson was active in the guitar rewiring area long before I got interested in it again. He had a three mini-toggle design that I improved on for the SSS ToggleCaster. I've known about his super switch 10 combo Strat design for some time, and quite honestly, don't think that there is a more logically laid-out and complete design on the planet for Strat-like guitars. Period. I drew up my incarnation of it with the two phase PP pots (he did mention "sprinkling phase switches to taste") since the only versions a'web at the time were hand-drawn sketches. Pay attention to the text in my post; there is a wiring omission noted. _________________________________________________ Some history; _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ Some ancient history;
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 23, 2008 22:57:11 GMT -5
You know, I've got this problem. I want a sustainer (pref, a hex sustainer/damper like they have in that moog thing) and midi (also a hex pickup) on every guitar I own. But I'd like to be able to use the sustainer with whatever pickup (or combination) I choose to select.
I'm almost thinking about just going to the VG system like Sumgai uses with a hex sustainer unit (that's 3 dual op-amps and some wire, right?). I mean, I'm playing all virtual amplifiers (part of the reason I need a sustainer), why not virtual guitars as well? But then, what am I going to do with my Rickenbacker and LP studio?
Anyway, I've stopped by this thread for more info re: that neck pocket piezo. Do you have a sample of what that puppy sounds like all by its lonesome? I'd love to hear a .wav recorded strait and as clean as possible without any form of filtering from amplifiers or simulations thereof (so I can "reamp" myself), but would settle for anything you feel gives a good representation of how that thing sounds.
That's a lot of parentheses and has nothing to do with this thread...
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 23, 2008 23:22:38 GMT -5
I'm not sure what a "hex sustainer" means.
Are you looking to drive each string on an individual basis, or just sense use the hex piezo pickups and drive the strings with a normal sustainer?
Most hex systems have a common or merged piezo output (the 7th, or parallel channel) that could be used to feed a normal sustainer (well, after buffering it (one OPAMP)).
I have a VG-88 as well and use it with a Tele with the Roland pickup, and a Godin with the RMC (the best IMHO). The Godin has the hex outputs, the common piezo output with a three-band graphic equalizer, and the magnetic output. You can run it stereo or monaural (or, with the hex outputs, octareo).
Now, one might come up with a way to drive the piezo saddles as individual sustainers but then I'd be tempted to try to invent the "roboto-vibrato" (the "auto'Leo tremo'Leo").
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 24, 2008 0:05:30 GMT -5
Are you looking to drive each string on an individual basis... Yeah, I think that's what the moog thing does, and I believe there was some work in that direction at some point on that projectguitar thread of pete's. Is that why there's 13 pins? Didn't mean to leave you out, but I miss the baghead already! My friend has the Roland GK-3 on one of his guitars (I think it's a parker) and one of these Godin classicals with the hex piezo saddles. He uses them for MIDI (not using the VG guitar models) and says the GK-3 tracks more reliably. The Godin is too sensitive. Seems this might be sub-optimal for the same reason we don't usually see the magnetic sustain driver in the bridge pickup position. The string just can't move far enough. Piezo-electric drive action might solve the issue of EM interference which limits pickup selection. I'm pretty sure they looked into this type of thing in that monstrosity of a thread on projectguitar as well. What I really fantasize about is something like a mic-stand mounted driver unit. I'm afraid, though, that this will require way too much juice to be safe, let alone the joys of blasting EM radiation into every other source on the stage!
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Post by 4real on Aug 24, 2008 0:45:13 GMT -5
Thanks ChrisK...
I didn't know about that Hendrix one...I had heard about some secret switch on the back of one guitar but not that one. It is a little similar to the thing I did on the phase-o-caster thing...the middle tone was actually a blend for the middle pickup and sounded great with the easy 3 way selector and the phase switches.
Unfortunately, the middle "tone" and switches has to be dedicated to the sustainer. The pot is a 1k valued and you turn it on with the lower 4pdt switch and pull up for the harmonic function.
So...I have only the two pots and 2 pairs of switches...I figure I need to pick one pickup to be phased reversed and I anticipate the neck is the preferable one...plus the series parallel on the HB to give it a lighter sound.
Those diagrams will help I think...is the second one with B*M+N a worthwhile mod over the B*N in position 3 series?
Anyway...that helps a lot. Being able to select middle only is not necessarily something I will miss.
I can't wait to get this guitar back together as the JB noiseless sound really good and I have not really heard the JB Bridge pickup as it was swapped out for this mod. The guitar is a squier (contemporary) mahogany (I got it cheap as it has a dark striped down the middle of the body) and is a great playing guitar.
...
Me too!!!
Oh...that problem...I have mostly recovered from this, even the sustainer ironically, but I am starting to appreciate it a gain in small doses.
I tried doing Hex type things for a long time but abandoned it years back. Sustainers require a circuit of poweramps with load preventing buffers or preamps...so no, not op amps as such and like a practice amp circuit use a fair amount of power....you would need six sustainer circuits equivalently. But then there would be cross talk between the drivers. There is thread at PG but it is pretty speculative. US$6500 is pretty high and I suspect it may not last long as a product or widely adopted.
I think a Variax could make a really good platform for my sustainer things...Jeff Miller made a PRS custom type guitar with a sustainer, pickups and the guts from a variax...it seems they have dropped the low cost variax because people like JM were pulling them apart...worth a look though, interesting guitars and an amazing player too, the best demo of variax stuff you will see!
I have not been able to find anything on the Moog guitar (patents, etc) but am not sure how they do the "anti-sustainer" banjo like muting effect. Nor do they actually say if you can choose pickups with the sustainer on or if it only works with the bridge pickup to avoid the inevitable EMI problems...I suspect this is the case or they would be promoting it.
Just play them...once the "novelty factor" of the sustainer wears off it would mainly be used as a powerful additional capability...not necessarily the most important part of the guitar...still I suppose you could develop a "style" from it.
There is a lot to be said for the more basic sustainer designs that I developed...mine also sound and feel a little different from the other commercial units. I doubt I will be doing the HEX thing again, a bit of a dead end IMHO and difficult for DIY...you need a hex pickup system like a piezo bridge too, so even attempting it would be risky and highly experimental (therefore likely to fail).
Not yet. I tried it in my old test guitar (see the phase-o-caster thing). Lots of people have attached buzzer piezos like the metal I used attached to the tremolo block of strats and things to reasonable effect. Pevey now put one in there too and possibly taylor as well, along with the piezo saddles. I don't have a guitar with the thing working anymore...this one was going to be a more fully realized version of it.
The bridge piezos tend to pickup the harsh metalic bridge sound and the direct actions of the strings...this version is easier and picks up the vibration of the wood and neck.
These kinds of things are compromises and the preamp I have for it is very basic. I also don't intend to use it alone but mixed with the magnetic pickups...I might make it so that the volume control doesn't effect it so when off you only hear the piezo but probably not...just a preset gain with a trim pot inside.
Piezos have a very different response, especially a sharp acoustic like attack...and this can sound good with the magnetic pickups and would also work with the sustainer on...but I do not expect it to sound "acoustic" as such.
That's never stopped me...so no sweat. All these guitars have a bunch of perhaps too many features. I have an LP in the works with a different piezo thing in the body that may be of interest as well.
.......
My sustainer stuff has been in limbo all year, but I fully intended to gear up a product based on a strat sized pickup conversion kit and circuit. My tele is the latest version where the driver surface mounts next to the neck pickup and works outstandingly well. The strat type thing has been installed in a custom guitar in the USA that may well go to a major player and so give me a kick in the pants to actually make it more widely available.
The device has a lot of different sides to it...great for recording and different effects and some really interesting things that you would not have thought of. The more unique sounds are kind of subtle.
Clean controlled feedback and the non-hex designs have "failings" that can be used as features...I am really enjoying a low drive on the sustainer while finger picking chords...the bass notes predominate and so give a lovely feedback pad on the bass notes or an evolving high note that hovers over the chords. Harmonic generation is also something special over and above "infinite sustain".
See the sustainer thread here for more stuff on that.
....
Interestingly...I have gone the other way in my playing...a lot more percussive and intricate thing that does not require a sustainer so much and a very clean sound. Think "wicked game" kind of sound. A A lot of it is unaccompanied as well, so a lot of chord melody like stuff but not "jazz". Since I got the tele done, a bit of country stuff is creeping in though!
I am setting up these guitar to suit this "style" and I have a trio planned (tele, LP and this strat). I may have some guitars tuned down a little or a dropped tuning for more variety.
On all of them I am looking for familiar but distinctive unique sounds. Despite the over kill of this guitar, I actually prefer a more simple guitar...the tele has been a great treat with 4 great sounds (plus sustainer).
This strat will probably be a great guitar for playing in a band though...I took the tele out in this context and it didn't have the depth this guitar can do as a rock machine.
Anyway...more than enough off topic...my advice is careful what you wish for or you may end up with a wiring nightmare as per the first pic and a guitar that gets unplayed for the good part of a year!
pete
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Post by 4real on Aug 24, 2008 1:06:56 GMT -5
Whoa...two posts while writing my reply...
My hex drivers had six drivers but a mono input...the idea was to optimize each for each string.
I think once you get into synth stuff sampling sustain is probably a more realistic and useful way of producing the effects I suspect you are after.
My sustainers are polyphonic but more organic.
Even if you use piezos to produce the drive signal this will not overcome the EMI issues. As soon as you have a nearby magnetic pickup it will pickup the electromagnetic signal coming out of the driver.
I did a lot of work trying to do this...but not a cool name like that! A transducer in the spring cavity to physically vibrate the tremolo block creating sustain. There are big problems with this concept, significant mechanical forces and still EMI right under the pickups...
How about a gizmotron! I made one out of an electric toothbrush in the 70's...it put out a steady G note from the EMI from the motor....hehehehe
I saw an instore demo of a new roland guitar synth and seemed to do a very credible sample and hold sustain effect.
The moog, sustainiac and fernandes, the ebow and mine are all a bit different. My new circuit has a broader range...on lower settings there is an AGC control that lets it work fairly politely and evenly (typical of the commercial systems) but on higher settings it has a more "wild" feedback effect and mild distortion. I find it a little more "realistic" and organic like a real feedback effect but still with predictable and controllable sounds and the ability to do it at any gain and clean.
The desire to get the sustainer to work with any pickup combination is not necessarily as great a feature as you may think. I pursued it quite a bit with a mid-driver thing...but the real reason was to make installation easier.
The idea comes up a lot, but it is not something I am ever likely to put any more time into preferring to make what has worked for me even better these days.
Hopefully, I will be in a position to offer the technology in an easier and more approachable format for specific guitar types or experimentation...there may be more on this in the near future!
pete
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 24, 2008 23:33:47 GMT -5
Sort of. 6 buffered piezo saddles 1 buffered combined piezo/piezo+mag/mag output 1 power 1 ground 2 patch switch leads (up and down) 11 so far, I'm sure that they found two other things (hopefully separate signal and power grounds). The combined piezo output and the magnetic output on the Godin are not part of the 13 pin cable, but are separate phone jacks. www.godinguitars.com/godinxtsap.htmwww.godinguitars.com/xtsa.pdfIt sounds like the VG is not properly setup and calibrated. They can be quite sensitive. That's a good question, I don't know. I've never A/B'd one that close. It definitely depends on the guitar and pickups (and preference).
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