Yamaha sounds like mud!

[tsquare]

I'm pretty new to playing guitar, a little over 2 yrs. I purchased a Yamaha aes620HB guitar. The bridge pick-up is a Seymore Duncan-JB and the neck is a Yamaha Alnico. When I select the 3-position switch to the bridge and neck, the sound starts to get very "muddy" and when it's just the neck, I can't stand it! The sound, to me, is almost like a warped sound when strumming the D-A-E strings. There is very little distinction between those strings. I have Elixer's polyweb installed and the intonation is correct. Some music stores have said it's my amp, a Fender DeVille (2x12), it needs to be biased. Some have said I need an E-Q to balance out the sound. I tried an E-Q and it didn't work for me. As far as the amp is concerned, a Fender Strat sound wonderful through it.
I understand that there sould be different sounds when selecting different switch positions. It's been said that my guitar is "warm". The neck is very straight and the action is perfect, so I'm told. As I advance in my playing, I hear the differences when selecting pick-ups. What I'm looking for is distinction between the strings, if I'm playing a G, I want to hear the G, if I'm playing an Em, that's what I want to hear.
I have heard suggestions about different pick-ups ranging from Gibson Jazz to Seymore Duncan models. My music style is pretty wide, one day I may feel in the mood to play country (Diamond Rio, Garth Brooks, Alan Jackson) to Pearl Jam to The Hollies and right now I'm into Pink Floyd.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, I don't play this guitar very much because of the sound, I would like to be playing it alot more! I also have a Takamine 12-string that I play most of the time but it's difficult to learn on and my fingers are killing me! I work in Philadelphia for the airlines and had 3 guitars stolen there (Guild, Alvarez and a Hohner) so that's why I don't currently play a six string acoustic right now (dealing with insurance company) and the only six string I have I don't like the sound. Please Help!!!!!

[D2o]

Hi Tsquare, and WELCOME! to GN2

Well, that's the end of my useful input ... seriously ... I gut nuttin' ...

Harmony-Central's user reviews are all great, and I can't imagine Yamaha getting pickups so mismatched on purpose ... yet, there is a perceived problem.

The SD SH-4 (JB) is fairly hot, but I don't know the specs of the Yamaha original design AES pickup (their words).

It could be you have a dud, or maybe the neck pickup is not set high enough (i.e. close enough to the strings), or it could be you can just swap out a capacitor or two and even things out. It could even be the strings ... who knows?

Hopefully, someone who actually has some knowledge of Yamaha's pickups / some useful input will be along at some point.

In the meantime, I just wanted to welcome you aboard.

D2o

P.S. One thing you could do is take some multimeter readings so we have a better idea of what pickups we're dealing with:

- connect the probes to the “COM” and the “Volt/Ohms” or “Volt/Ohms/mA” inputs of your multimeter

- set your multimeter to 20k ohms

- touch the tips of the probes together and you should see a "0" on the display.

- plug one end of your cord into your guitar.

- connect either one of the probes to the tip of the loose end of the guitar cord, and connect the other probe to the sleeve of the guitar cord.

- with the volume control at minimum, you should have a reading of "0".

- next, with the volume at maximum, you should have a higher reading – it may be as high as 16000 ohms with a humbucker (in which case your display would say "16.00").

- then set the meter to 2000k ohms.

- with the probes still attached, slowly rotate the volume knob from 0 to 10 and record the highest level of resistance (it should be 125 – 250, depending on your pot) – it should occur somewhere near the middle volume.

- let us know what readings you get

[andy]

Oct 2, 2008 14:16:42 GMT -5 tsquare said:

almost like a warped sound when strumming the D-A-E strings.

It could be all sorts of things, but this is the biggest clue to me. How is the height of the pickup? If it is too close to the strings, the magnetic pull can make the notes (most notably the lower ones) start to warble and 'mush' up.

Moving the pickup away from the strings may help here, and as it has the effect of comparitively thinning the tone, may help with the mud issue. It may well make for a quieter sound compared to the higher output bridge pickup though, which makes the replacement idea a biggie if you are switching pickups a lot in a live context.

Just undoing the screws either side of the pickup will lower it, and is totally non-destructive, so worth a shot. Just be wary of loostening too far, as once the pickup leaves the screw it can pop into the guitar and be a pain to re-connect. Sometimes the smallest adjustment can make a noticable difference though.

[newey]

Sometimes the smallest adjustment can make a noticeable difference though.

Absolutely right, and since this is the easiest thing to do, it should be your first stop. IIRC, this guitar has separate V & T controls for each pup a la LPs, so even though the neck output decreases, you can even it out with a judicious use of the bridge volume.

A change of strings might also help. I don't use the nanowebs, never tried them. But you don't mention the gauge you're using. If they're 9s, a move up might produce some more definition in your tone.

If you still can't abide the sound, well, "Mods 'R Us"! ;D

[JohnH]

Elixir strings are extra $ beacuse they are covered in a layer of additional goop, the idea being to prevent ones own goop from penetrating the strings and hence making them sound duller over time. Theres two sorts, polyweb, that you have, have a thicker layer of goop that takes some of the zing from the string. They also do nanoweb with a thinner layer. Ive tried one set of nanowebs on a guitar that I dont use much, and it is still sounding fine two years later. But maybe those polywebs are dulling it too much.

Anyway, for the regular players, I prefer to buy cheaper, normal type strings and change them regularly. So that 'smy suggestion, but other points made above are also good.

cheers

John

[tsquare]

WOW! Thanks to everyone! I just joined yesterday and the responses are great! I took the multimeter readings as suggested and the numbers are:Bridge=18.91, Bridge-Neck=5.37 and Neck=8.18. The other check is Bridge=100 and Neck=109. There appears to be some dead spots or my meter was not making full contact all the time.
The size of my strings are 11-14-18-28-38-48. I have used a varity of strings ranging from Cleartones to Elixers to Ernie Ball.
The strings at the neck are 1/8" (approx.4mm) and the bridge is angled, starts at 1/8" (approx.4mm) and angles upward toward the bridge itself and measures 1/16" (approx. 2-3mm).

Tsquare

[D2o]

I took the multimeter readings as suggested and the numbers are:Bridge=18.91, Bridge-Neck=5.37 and Neck=8.18. The other check is Bridge=100 and Neck=109.

Almost all of that is just ... weird.

No wonder you think the neck is sounding dead, at 8K (relatively low) compared to the bridge's 19K (smoldering).

(EDIT: in case I am making it sound like the only relationship that counts is between "output" and "tone", I didn't mean to - "tone" varies by a lot more than just resistance. Nevertheless, there is a obvious difference in the output readings you have given, so it's worth a double-check.)

I also would have expected the middle position to be reading somewhere near 13K, based on the two seperate pickups.

Can I trouble you to repeat the tests ... maybe something was amiss the first time?

If you can repeat the same readings, we can go from there. If you come back with different readings, I won't scratch any more of the hairs I still have out of my head.

D2o

P.S. You are most welcome, and thanks for the appreciation.

[ashcatlt]

Woah there!

1) The pickup with the lower resistance should be quieter and brighter, all other things being equal. Of course, most other things are not equal, so it's a bit difficult to say much of anything about how they should compare.

2) Two resistances in parallel can never measure greater than the lower value of the two. Using the notation we tend to use for combinations of pickups, in this case 18.91 + 8.18 = 5.7 according to my calculator. On the other hand 18.91 * 8.18 = 27.09 Of course, my calculations don't account for the pots (mine, his, or yours )

[D2o]

2) Two resistances in parallel can never measure greater than the lower value of the two.

Ash - good catch. I was thinking one volume, and roughly half of 27.09 in the B+N position.

That is not so - there are two volumes and one master tone, as far as I can see in pics. That would give the readings that tsquare has stated and that you have confirmed (and now I have too, using wolf's calculator).

D2o

[ashcatlt]

Adding 4 x 500K loads in parallel brings it dangerously close to the actual measured value.

[D2o]

Oct 3, 2008 13:02:41 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Adding 4 x 500K loads in parallel brings it dangerously close to the actual measured value.

You're right.

I'd like to use one of my life-lines now, please

Sorry about that, tsquare. Parallel changes everything I said. Listen to Ash.

D2o

[JohnH]

So not quite solved yet.

Back figuring from the resistance measurements, it looks like the neck pup is about 8.5k, the bridge 21k (oooh...loud!), and the volume pots are 210k and 180k. We dont know about the tone pot because we can't read its resistance through the tone capacitor, but maybe it is the same. Quite low value pots for humbuckers, leading to less highs. 500k is more expected with humbuckers. Probably intended however, since from the picture it looks like a big old jazz box.

EDIT: Ignore above! see ChrisKs post 16 for the proper values.

One other variable for the tone is the guitar cord. The shorter it is, the more highs you get. If you are using a 20' or a curly cable, you could try a 10' straight cord.

You could start modding the guitar, with 500k pots and maybe dfferent pickups. Is there any good access to the internals?, many semi-hollows are difficult to get at.

You could also play with the pickup heights to get the two balanced, then maybe think about a graphic EQ pedal to shape the tone.

John

[tsquare]

I appreciate everyones advice and kind words. I follow most of what is being said but I tend to get a little lost, this is a whole new world to me, so I have to research alot of what is being said so I can follow the advice being given. I'm actually an airplane mechanic, so I do follow most of what is being said. I have not taken new readings yet, kids are out of school now so homework is first but I will get those readings. A friend of mine in Wisconsin, which is where I live, I work in Philly, said it's possible the capacitors are of the wrong value and that may give them a dull sound.
I pulled out the guitar and played it for a while and actually played with the neck height adjustment and lowered it some but it made the sound more like the SD (JB) pick-up.
I guess another way to look at, which I discovered playing today, is that when playing an electric, the strings ring alot longer versus an acoustic sound so it seems when I'm changing chords that the previous chord is not done 'resonating' (is that the correct word?) so they tend to run together, which to me gives it that warped/muddy/warm sound. Plus, I wonder if it's just me being new and not use to the sound of an electric guitar. My roommate, when I was staying in Wilmington,DE (22mile drive from the Philly Airport and home to David Bromberg for those of you who enjoy his music) had a Squire Strat that his mother bought him and I thought it sounded really good, very clear with alot of distinctive switch positions. I do like a strat sound and I like a Gretsch sound if that helps at all. Thanks!

Tsquare

[tsquare]

I also forgot to mention that I have 3 chords, one is 20ft, and two are 12ft. All are pretty high quality and are well taken care of. I do have a Boss Distortion pedal but I rarely use it. I don't know if it makes a difference but my setup is a Berhinger PMP2000 with Yamaha BR 12's. Should I play an electric through a powered mixer or should I run it through my Fender amp?

Tsquare

[JohnH]

If you have been running it straight into a mixer, that could explain much! Mixer inputs are fairly low impedance, meaning that they suck alot of juice out of what ever is plugged into them. Thats not a problem for other powered devices, or microphones designed for such, but with a guitar signal, it particularly kills off the high frequencies.

Your guitar needs a high impedance input, such as the input to a guitar amp or a guitar effects pedal then to a guitar amp. You can also use a modelling device such as a pod, then to a mixer. The modellers add amp and guitar cab tone, plus whatever effects you chosse, and then present an output suitable for a mixer.

If you want to use your mixer, as a test, try plugging a 12' cord from guitar to your Boss pedal, and then another from pedal to the mixer. Boss pedals have buffer amplifiers in them that can sort out this impedance issue. Keep the pedal switched off to get just the buffer without the distortion.

This may actually work for you. the usual critisism of this set up would be that it is too bright since you are feeding into full range speakers instead of guitar speakers, but thats not the problem here!

John

[ashcatlt]

Oct 3, 2008 16:16:47 GMT -5 tsquare said:

I also forgot to mention that I have 3 chords...

That's all you need! Just ask the Ramones, the JAMC, or any blues or country picker!

[ChrisK]

logic

with the probes still attached, slowly rotate the volume knob from 0 to 10 and record the highest level of resistance (it should be 125 – 250, depending on your pot)

No, for a 250K nominal pot and a nominal 5K pickup, the maximum read value will be 63K75 [(Rpot + Rpickup)/4].

For a 500K nominal pot and a nominal 10K pickup, the maximum read value will be 127K5.


Based on Tsquare’s numbers and my renamed post on Discerning LP-Type Resistances, the actual values afoot are as follows;

As read thru the output jack;

For only the bridge selected, a bridge reading of 18K91 at “10” on the bridge volume pot, and 100K at the highest adjustable value of the bridge volume pot, the bridge pickup is 19K9 and the bridge volume pot is 380K1.

For only the neck selected, a neck reading of 8K18 at “10” on the neck volume pot and 109K at the highest adjustable value of the neck volume pot, the neck pickup is 8K34 and the neck volume pot is 427K7.


Proof;

19K9 in parallel with 380K1 is 18K9
[19K9 + 380K1 = 400K, which is 4 times 100K]

8K34 in parallel with 427K7 is 8K18
[8K34 + 427K7 = 436.04, which is 4 times 109K]

18K9 in parallel with 8K18 is 5K71

The quadratic math is required since we are solving for two (unknown) roots for each pickup and its respective volume pot.

If we had just a master volume pot, it's a lot easier (like my renamed Strat analysis model Discerning Strat-Type Resistances ie Brain Scanning Thru a Nostril). B||V vs B||V||N makes it easy to discern N as well as N||V vs B||V||N makes it easy to discern B (simple math required). Once "both sides" are discerned this way, the value of V just falls out.

/logic

[D2o]

Oct 3, 2008 21:33:31 GMT -5 ChrisK said:

..... my renamed post on Discerning LP-Type Resistances

.....

.....

..... my renamed Strat analysis model Discerning Strat-Type Resistances ie Brain Scanning Thru a Nostril). .....

Chris,

Thank you!

I always incorrectly assumed that every guitar's wiring was series ...

... even an acoustic!

D2o

[ChrisK]

Series'ously?

[tsquare]

D20 asked me to run the numbers, it took me awhile because the kids are off on the weekends from school and my youngest had her 6th birthday! I ran the numbers a few minutes ago and here they are: the 16k setting Bridge=19.82 but this is only half way, past this point the numbers drop to 0 and then I proceed to Max. Volume=15.52 and Min. Volume=0.03, Bridge & Neck= 19.94 at half way, Max. Volume=13.54 and Min Volume=0.03, Neck=19.87 at half way, Max. Volume=8.21 and Min. Volume=0.06.
Using the 200k setting the numbers are: Bridge=100.4, Bridge & Neck=55.8 and Neck=108.8.
Is there any pickup out on the market that would solve my sound problem or capacitor, etc. any thoughts as to what might be a fix. I did adjust the neck pickup height and ran it all the way down and slowly raised it and the 'muddy' sound just came back. Is there any hope for this guitar or is it just the player?

[JohnH]

can you confirm waht it is that you are plugging into when it sounds muddy? cords, effects, amp/mixer and what type of input to the amp/mixer etc

John

[tsquare]

I plug directly into a Fender DeVille (2X12), sometimes I connect a distortion pedal but not very often. I have tried to plug it into my Berhinger PMP2000 with Yamaha BR12 speaker's but it difently sounds better plugged into my amp.

[JohnH]

Its hard to know, there's nothing that I can see thats wrong with your readings, and it seems like a cool guitar. That style of axe is intended to be more mellow sounding that a Strat though. Maybe give it a bit of extra gain (ie, lightly distorted) on the amp to give it back some edge to the sound ?

There's lots of pickups that you can buy, but I dont know how to compare one to what you have.

John

[tsquare]

How do get the sound more distinctive? When I select the neck, the sound is horrible. It's got that warbled sound, you play an Em but it doesn't sound like one, even though it's fully tuned. Those top strings (E-A-D) senn to run together in sound. When I play the guitar, I plug in a CD player and play along to the songs and it will sound out of tune but if I play a D chord it sounds deadnuts on! I want to hear the individual strings. I keep thinking maybe the neck pickup is junk and I've looked at so many (Seymore Duncan, TV Jones, Gibson,etc.), which one would give distinctive sound at the neck.

[ChrisK]

Aaaah!, the journey begins.....

I keep thinking maybe the neck pickup is junk and I've looked at so many (Seymore Duncan, TV Jones, Gibson,etc.), which one would give distinctive sound at the neck.

You can try the Seymour Duncan site, they do have sound snippets for some pickups. DiMarzio have some too.

You could try coupling the neck pickup thru a 0.001uF or so series capacitor to its pot. You might also like the treble bypass mod.


All of my pickups sound distinctive, but then, I generally have to rent my audiences too. ;D

[D2o]

Oct 5, 2008 17:56:17 GMT -5 tsquare said:

D20 asked me to run the numbers, it took me awhile because the kids are off on the weekends from school and my youngest had her 6th birthday!

Sorry, tsquare

Your numbers were fine, as ashcatlt had initially noted.

I am glad you ran the numbers again - just to be on the safe side, but my request was based on lack of knowledge ... apparently there is some parallel universe I hadn't heard about.

Chris,

Yeah, I'm the guy who showed up here two years ago identifying my first ever electric guitar as a "strat" ... yeah, a strat with one humbucker, one volume and one tone. ...

... and I'm still learning!

D2o

[tsquare]

ChrisK,
At least you have an audience that will listen, my audience tends to howl at the moon! I'm getting better though, takes time and lots of practice.

D2O,
Thanks for taking the time to listen, I guess I'll have to go to all the pickup web-sites. Last night I went to TVJones and they had samples, the Brian Setzer model had a graet sound, it was very appealing to my ears and is kind of what I'm looking for, not a bad price $125, now all I have to do is see if it will fit my guitar. Thanks everyone who offered advise.

[ashcatlt]

How many wires you got in that neck pickup, there?

If you've got 4 insulated wires, with or without a fifth (usually uninsulated), you might try wire it up in local parallel. This will improve the high frequency response, making it sound a bit like a single coil, but still keeping a bit of that extra volume and it'll still be humbucking. This is a free and reversible option.

[ChrisK]

I'm serious about the 0.001uF or so series capacitor to the neck volume pot and the treble bypass mod.


I'm going to go out on a limb here; are there a lot of open (unfretted) strings in the chords that sound muddy?

Many neck pickups are centered under the 24th fret location which is harmonically deficient for open strings. (Ratiometrically, it's scalably harmonically deficient.)

If this is combined with a dark sounding pickup.......

[D2o]

Tsquare,

I am happy to have offered whatever input I can. I have not owned many electric guitars - a total of only six, in fact.

I did find that with one of the guitars, a real beauty which I almost entirely loved, there was one niggling little intonation issue that simply could not be 100% resolved. In the end, I had become so obsessed with getting it just right that I simply could not be consoled and sold it.

Someone out there is now enjoying a wicked awesome guitar that I spent much time shielding, re-wiring, cleaning, dressing, and distressing on ... the lucky person who bought it received a guitar that simply had no issues that they were sensitive to. You are reminding me of me, and I am afraid you will go off and spend a lot of time and money trying to resolve an issue that cannot be resolved to your satisfaction.

Sound possible?

It could also be that you drop in a new humbucker and you're golden ... who knows?

But, for my money, based on the little experience I do have, I would do what Chris says, and I don't see any reason not to take Ash up on his free offer either (unless you have less than four wires). For the cost of a capacitor and some wiring time, you will likely resolve this as well as it's going to resolved on this guitar. This guitar is not a strat, nor should it sound like one.

I think you should start with the simple stuff, step away from the bench for a couple of days and come back and see if you enjoy your guitar for what it is.

D2o