PINE!

[jmartyg]

So i've had about 20+ planks of this lumber sitting in unheated storeage for 20+ years (im only 25, it's my parents property and I remember seeing it when i was still 3 feet tall).

Anyway, i got around to actually having a good look at one of these planks last night. I planed off some of the grey/dusty wood and it seems to be pine. very straiht grain and that one piece had a small knot. one small knot.

Here is the kicker. The small piece was 2.5"x14"x5'

yeah, SMALL is one solid piece of pine at that size. i can literally trace out a strat and have a 1 piece body.. well, 3 of them.. on that one piece. the rest are about 15-20' and a little wider.

And the downer is that it's pine. if i look at it wrong i see a dent wanting to form.

What do you folks think i should do with this stuff? I really want to try to make a jazzmaster style, and a one piece body is really awesome, but im scared that the neck plate screws could rattle themselves lose within a month.

Tone wise, i'm a fan of a poplar hard tail strat i made a decade ago that has a dimarzio super distortion and is made from poplar... which is also a very very soft wood..
yas think it's worth my time?

[newey]

jmartyg-

Welcome back! It's been awhile.

There are several guys who've built Tele bodies out of pine over on the TDPRI forums.

Leo's first Teles were made of pine, and all the vintage freaks are paying top dollar for 'em. Squier made a "vintage Vibe" model Tele out of a pine body.

Ought to work for a Jazzmaster as well. Given the softness, I'd think you would want a hard finish on it, not just a stain coat.

I don't recall any talk of problems with neck mounting. I'd say "Go for it!"

[ChrisK]

The original Fender guitar (Esquire) prototype was pine.

There are folk that consider pine to be a prized wood for Tele bodies.

I've seen Custom Shop models that are pine.

I don't know if it is strong enough for a routed Strat body with a vibrato cavity, but it should be fine for a Tele.

Guitar Mill offers pine as a wood option, ask them about the tonal characteristics. They may also be interested in some of your pine.

guitarmill.com/index.html

[jmartyg]

Thanks for the re-welcome newey. Tonsislitis during the summer really drained alot out of me..june 12th-0ct 30th when they were removed. 2 weeks recovery. whqat a fun time..

I had no idea pine was/is used. i always figured it was too soft.

For the finish, if you do enough googleing, you'll find a left handed vintage sunburst jag with block inlays and binding on the neck. looks AMAZING. I want the same thing, but wth a 25.5" scale and humbuckers.

I really dont think it will be cost effective to ship a ton of wood outside of eastern canada though. how much would that stuff be worth anyway?

[newey]

how much would that stuff be worth anyway?

If it's straight and clear, you might be pleasantly surprised!

Iwant the same thing, but wth a 25.5" scale and humbuckers.

Since Strat necks are so ubiquitous, and come in a variety of contours, you might as well just route it for a std Strat neck pocket.

[crazymanandy]

Most folks who use pine apply a wood hardener, because the wood is, as you said, extremely soft.

CMA

[ChrisK]

I really don't think it will be cost effective to ship a ton of wood outside of eastern Canada though. How much would that stuff be worth anyway?

Fortunately, it's a lot cheaper to ship an email from eastern Canada.

Ask them. They sell a 19.50" x 13.75" x 1.765" two piece pine body blank for $75. A one piece one would be $125. All they have to do is join the two piece ones and plane both of them.

Do the math. You're looking at 7 to 10 blanks per plank times 20+ planks. That'd be 140 to 200 blanks at $125 street.

That's only $17,500 to $25,000 street. Now assuming that shipping is horrendous and they want to make a bunch of money, you still might be looking at $4,000 to $7,000. After all, your wood has aged for 20+ years.


Of course, if this seems to be too much trouble, I'll see if I can come up and take them off of your hands (you probably need the storage space anyway). I have a 3/4 ton pickup truck and can take care of everything for you, and my return trip will be downhill anyway.

guitarmill.com/index.html

www.woodfinder.com/

www.gilmerwood.com/index.html

www.galleryhardwoods.com/specials.htm


Talk's cheap. So are emails.

[andy]

I remember hearing some soundclips of a Tele and Strat with Pine bodies. Once I have some free time I'll look out the links, but typing 'pinecaster', if my memory serves me correctly, into a search engine might just bring them up anyway.

I was quite keen on the sound I think, it was soft yet clear, and certainly what would be classed as 'toneful'.

[newey]

jmg-

Or you could hold most of the wood for investment. It's only going to go up as stocks become more scarce.

In today's troubled economy, barter is making a comeback. So, maybe instead of a whole load sent off to Guitarmill, you send them enough for 3 or 4 bodies, and get one in return.

IOW, you start making like Monte Hall . . . .(Dang, you're probably too young to remember "Let's Make A Deal")

Don't know that they do JM styles, though.

[jmartyg]

Nov 27, 2008 20:53:32 GMT -5 newey said:

In today's troubled economy, barter is making a comeback. So, maybe instead of a whole load sent off to Guitarmill, you send them enough for 3 or 4 bodies, and get one in return.

THAT sounds like an idea. I think they do jag/jazz/stang bodies.



I've had no idea this could be in the 25k range. I think before it gets to cold, ill attack every other piece and see if they are all pine. They most likely are, as pine and maple are most of the forests around here.. maybe ill find a maple plank....maybe my car will turn into a corvette overnight too..

they are stored in a 50' steel/tin barn/shed thingey that my father stores his j/30 in during the winter. just my luck, i wont have the room to move many around to look at them till the spring.

I'll have to check out this pinecaser tomorrow after work, as im currently typing on my laptop and the speakers are somewhat lacking.

[ChrisK]

Keep in mind that my analysis indicated that Guitar Mill would sell 200 one piece pine body blanks for $25K

[normt04072]

www.pinecaster.com/gallery.html Arlo West's web site. I met him years ago when I was on the board of directors for a party up here called "The Weekend Behind The Barn" He had the feature band on one Sat night. Didn't know that he built his own axe's though!

[cynical1]

jmartyg -

If it were me I'd go for it. Sounds like a Telecaster waiting to be discovered

For reference, I just took a 6 x 6 pine beam stored under my barn, for God only knows how long, and used it to support my floor after installing a soapstone stove. I had to route it to fit the master carpenter work on my floor joists... This stuff was so hard I could only route about 1/16" at a time to keep it from binding...but it was extremely light weight...

My guess is, that if these boards have any age on them at all, you could have them planed to 1-3/4" and have one very nice and stable pine body. Any cabinet or custom woodworking shop can do this for you.

One suggestion, that will probably raise a few eyebrows among the wood purists, would be to finish the body with a marine grade epoxy. If that doesn't protect the wood from dings and damage nothing will... It's alot of sanding, and tough sanding, but it's a bullet proof finish. I put 6 coats of this stuff on a maple fretless neck and roundwounds didn't leave a mark...

To paraphrase Horace Greeley for a moment, "Go Pine, young man..."

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[jmartyg]

Hi,
i'm going to try it out, but looks like my old man has the boat in pieces in the shop and I have no leg room. i'll have to wait until spring though. oh well.


For the finsish, i want to try a sunbrst. i can live with dents. they add character.

i was listening to some of the audio from pinecaster. not too bad!

[dugg]

I've used light soft woods on quite a few bodies, and now I'm in the process of making my third neck from poplar, which is an amazingly underrated wood by the way. I really admire that dude up in Canada, Alex Cziky or something like that. He makes axes under the name of Zachary and boldly calls himself the best electric builder in the world. Whether you like his boastful style or not, he makes good guitars and extends his cavalier attitude towards things like wood choices. Zach has at least one axe made from knotty pine Ikea tables chopped up and relaminated. I think it's a thing of beauty and good taste; www.zacharyguitars.com/120300pics.htm

Two pieces of advice I have learned about softer woods are; They should be hardened, but Minwax wood hardener is sucky. Second, It's a good idea to mortise in a block of hardwood under the bridge, especially if its a trem block style. We think of Alder as being fairly hard, but I noticed a huge difference in sustain and tone when I mortised a block of bamboo flooring under the bridge of my S type axe. This is the second hardwood block I've put under an S type tremblock bridge with similar results. It could have something to do with the superior screw holding action of the cross grain. It also could be a function of the way the six screw holes (both I did were 'vintage style') can be more accurately aligned and drilled. Even with a drillpress, drill bits tend to wander more along the grain than across.

As an alternative to the very unpleasant to use Minwax wood hardener, I've started using hot hide glue mixed with about double the amount of water as a 'sizing', like they do on oil paintings. I put it on hot so it penetrates well. The HHG makes the wood rock hard on the surface and it also gives it a permanent 'wet look' like when you wet the grain to see what it looks like. So far, I've applied FP shellac and my long oil varnish right over the HHG, but I imagine any other coating would work as well. Hope something in my rant is helpful!

[jmartyg]

I've built with poplar before..5-7 layers of colour with no filler. It's covered in belt buckle scratches and dents now. It still looks good and i like it.

i'm thinking this:
honey/yellow stain
some sort of epoxy.
red/brown
black
epoxy again??
clear

or maybe:
yellow
red
epoxy
black
epoxy
clear
as the red should idealy show some grain, but it might be lost with the depth of the epoxy.

This is definately going to have to wait till spring for it all as i'm sure that it will get milky from the cold drying if i don't.

Dents, gouges and scrapes don't bother me too much, its really the warping from the neck pocket that's killing me. Maybe if I make it 2" instead of 1.75ish it might make a difference. Wood blocks might kill the sunburst plan i have.

[jmartyg]

I forgot to add. it's going go be a tune-o-matic with a thru-body tailpiece. or a jag/jazz tailpiece if i can find one for cheap. I dont use the tremolo/vibrato at all, so it would be for tone/astetic reasons. I prefer the thicker sound from through the body, but a jazz/jag/stang looks like butt as a hardtail.

PS
can i have any more '/' in this post?

[cynical1]

Dec 20, 2008 20:18:25 GMT -5 jmartyg said:

i'm thinking this:
honey/yellow stain
some sort of epoxy.
red/brown
black
epoxy again??
clear

or maybe:
yellow
red
epoxy
black
epoxy
clear
as the red should idealy show some grain, but it might be lost with the depth of the epoxy.

jmartyg -

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here in the order of the finishes... Generally your stains, dyes and color go on before you clear. And epoxy is a lot of sanding to get back to smooth . And if you use a marine grade epoxy finish it's really tough because it has to be brushed on...repeat...really tough...

I can't imagine any benefit to you to go through that much work. I'd apply your stains and colors then epoxy over all of it. Give the colors and stains at least 30 days before you drop the epoxy. If the epoxy lifts anything you're screwed as a complete strip on epoxy is murder.

I'm also lost on why you'd spray a clear over the epoxy. You won't get a very good adhesion, and the epoxy can be steel wooled and polished to a pretty respectable gloss.

Straighten me out, though, if I've misinterpreted anything...

Oh yeah, one more thing... On your through-body string routing. You might want to consider drilling and filling with oak doll rod where you plan to run your strings through the body. They'll hold the ferrules better on the back.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[dugg]

I'm building my friend a Tele style axe right now. Since it will have the strings mounted through the body, I'm going to omit the block of hardwood under the bridge. I really don't think it's necessary unless the bridge has to support the pull of the strings. Maybe I'll still put it in there for purely for mojo. I'm planning an interesting alternative to the ferrules though, maybe you might want to conside it too. Instead of seperate ferrules, I'm going to machine a solid bar of brass with six holes to fit flush with the back. I seriously doubt if there would be an audible improvement, but I bet the brass will look bitchen and of course the ever important mojo factor.

[cynical1]

Dec 23, 2008 12:01:59 GMT -5 dugg said:

I'm going to machine a solid bar of brass with six holes to fit flush with the back.

Dugg -

If you can machine brass maybe I should be talking to you about an underlay for a Schaller bass bridge...something, say...80 mm x 57.5 mm x 4 mm thick...

The solid bar idea should work fine. It'll displace the pressure from the strings nicely against the pine. If you routed the cavity for the plate into the body so it flushed when installed that would be very nice.

Good idea.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[clive1]

Dec 23, 2008 12:01:59 GMT -5 dugg said:

I'm building my friend a Tele style axe right now. Since it will have the strings mounted through the body, I'm going to omit the block of hardwood under the bridge. I really don't think it's necessary unless the bridge has to support the pull of the strings. Maybe I'll still put it in there for purely for mojo. I'm planning an interesting alternative to the ferrules though, maybe you might want to conside it too. Instead of seperate ferrules, I'm going to machine a solid bar of brass with six holes to fit flush with the back. I seriously doubt if there would be an audible improvement, but I bet the brass will look bitchen and of course the ever important mojo factor.

Many years ago I made a bridge for a Strat. and underneath it had a brass block that screwed onto a 8" x 4" x 1/4 brass block on the back. It sustained like you've never heard a Strat. sustain but was so heavy that I started getting a sore shoulder after a few nights gigs. in the end I took it all off and put the Strat. system back but wedged it off with a block of hardwood and it too improved the sustain.

[dugg]

Cynical1, I guess I misused the word machined. I was only planning to buy the bar stock in the right size (hardware store), cut it for length and drill the holes on my drillpress. I guess I'll have to round the edges and polish it a little, hopefully I can make it look decent enough. I do have a friend with proper metal working tools I can go crying to if I screw it up, though. Clive1, that's an exellent story, thanks for sharing it.

[jmartyg]

Hi,
I feel so bad about this. I made absolutely no progress on this project at all. My shitfts (thats spelled correctly for my opinion on shift work) were mostly nights at work, my friend with the shop works days. we never really got time to do this. Any time we had was used for jamming and repairing existing equipment.

plus, the engine in my car broke a valve spring and thus a whole piston. I broke down and decided to buy a new car, with a 5 year warentee. so there goes a lot of my cash flow. This was a week after i put in a whole new exhaust and 2 months after a $1200 clutch.

no new builds, no new pickups, no replacement speakers for my amp. no replacement stop boxes. no nothing.

maybe during the winter, i dunno. the wood isn't going anywhere.

oh well, life goes on. you only live once in this lifetime so I'll eventually get it done.


but on the plus, I've been teaching my old boss how to play guitar. she's uber technical so I'm also re-learning my method by teaching her since I developed a really sloppy way of playing over the years. She picked up sweet child of mine faster than I did when I learned it. And she can barley strum a chord. Go figure.