Is this thing a humbucker?

[toast]

Let me try to make a long story short. I bought a used humbucker a dozen years ago when I was a kid and wired it (improperly) into my guitar in place of one of the original single coils. The guitar never worked right again so it mostly sat in the back of my closet until today when I was inspired to fix it or at least see where I went wrong. It's a wonder it didn't catch fire or electricute me with the mess I made of the wiring. (50v 1000µf cap in series with one of the pickups! Why is that even in there!?)

I was considering using this humbucker in a project so I googled wiring diagrams for ideas. Well, every humbucker I saw had four leads and this one has two: one green wire coming from the pickup containing one uninsulated conductor and an inner white conductor. Is this common or some sort of cheap single coil made to look like a humbucker from the outside? For fear of damaging the windings I didn't remove the tape to see if they are separate coils wired together or what. There are no markings on it at all.

[newey]

Toast-

Hello and Welcome!

Is this common or some sort of cheap single coil made to look like a humbucker from the outside?

Odds are it's a humbucker. Most modern HBs have 4 wires so that the two coils can be wired separately, allowing for "split coil", series/parallel, and other wiring variations.

Older HBs, including the original Gibson ones from way back when, had only 2 conductors (plus, sometimes, a braided shield). In these, the 2 coils are internally wired in series.

You can check with a magnet (or another pickup) to be sure. A HB's 2 coils are reverse polarity from each other, so a magnet should repel one half and attract the other.

It's a wonder it didn't catch fire or electricute me with the mess I made of the wiring.

No worries there. An electric guitar has neither the current nor the voltage* to do either (so long as power is not applied to it from the outside, like from a faulty amp). Experiment to your heart's content.

(50v 1000µf cap in series with one of the pickups! Why is that even in there!?)

Are you sure you're reading that cap value correctly? It could be in there to bleed off some treble, but not with that value.

The guitar never worked right again

What about it didn't work right?

If you haven't already undone the wiring, and if you have a digital multimeter, onboard diagnostics are helpful. See Here

*Now, someone is going to come along and tell me that even a fraction of an amp can kill you if applied with sufficient voltage. Yes, I understand that. We're not talking lightning strikes here.

[wolf]

newey

Now, someone is going to come along and tell me that even a fraction of an amp can kill you

Yes, sometimes an amp fraction this small can be lethal:

Okay newey, to continue this on a more serious note (such as E♭) are you sure it was only the older Gibson humbuckers that only had 2 wires? I'm old and feel that my SG Standard is relatively new (1980) and it came with those 2 wire chrome-covered, sealed-for-eternity, epoxy-filled bricks. It was because of those that I realized how limited the 2 conductor humbuckers are.
Incidentally, if you are lucky enough to have a humbucker that can be taken apart (unlike the previously mentioned "bricks"), here is how to wire it as a 4 wire humbucker:
www.1728.com/guitar1a.htm

[Teleblooz]

Maybe he should have said "older or cheaper". I've seen newer cheap humbuckers with 2 wires.

[newey]

Point well taken, gentlemen- the older design, but still kicking around.

[D2o]

Nov 27, 2008 13:57:08 GMT -5 wolf said:

newey

Now, someone is going to come along and tell me that even a fraction of an amp can kill you

Yes, sometimes an amp fraction this small can be lethal:

... hmmm ... sumpthin' tells me I better be more careful in the use of the word "half-butt" from now on ... ;D

D2o

[ChrisK]

Well, actually, current Gib$ons come with single conductor plus shield leads on the pickups UNLESS you buy an aftermarket version of said pickup. Then it comes as four-wire plus shield.

This is due to current Gib$ons being sooooooooooooooooooooooo valuable that no one would ever even think of thinking of modifying one.

[wolf]

ChrisK
I had a feeling Gibson's were still outfitted with those 2 wire chrome covered bricks. I know I took a chance in decreasing my Gibson's potential resale value by modifying it.

Heck, there have only been a couple of million SG's and Les Pauls manufactured which makes their resale price astronomical. What makes that guitar extraordinary is that it was manufactured when Gibson was owned by Norlin - and we all know how rare those are.
Heck, this is Guitar Nuts2 and none of us would be here if we were a bit reluctant to plow into a guitar.

[newey]

Wolf-

Yeah, but that's nothing compared to what you did to that poor Vox Valvetronix. ;D ;D

[toast]

Okay, I checked it with another pickup and it does have opposite polarity on the two PU's.

I doubt it's very old because the poles are hex heads. I don't know if things like that were popular much before 80's metal. I don't think it's epoxy dipped either, just wrapped with cloth tape.

I'm also sure I read the capacitor right. Wiring disaster:


PS: That fraction of an amp was very painful but didn't quite kill me. I guess it depends on the brand of the amp.

[newey]

Toast-

No, we hadn't forgotten that you had real questions, despite all the ensuing Turkey Day silliness.

I doubt it's very old because the poles are hex heads. I don't know if things like that were popular much before 80's metal. I don't think it's epoxy dipped either, just wrapped with cloth tape.

Probably about right vintage-wise. If you want to make it into a 4 conductor, wolf posted his link to do so.

OK, so you were right about the cap. In addition to other wiring problems, that does need to go. You also have a tone control but no volume control, since the pot isn't wired to anything.

I could go on, but you haven't really told us what you plan to do, beyond a vague reference to a project involving this humbucker. Is the project rewiring this particular guitar, or some other?

If you're going to be removing this HB for other uses, the first thing to do is put a multimeter on it to make sure it's operating properly, i.e., that both coils are not dead. Set your Multimeter to the 1KΩ or the 20KΩ range. If it's an auto-ranging meter, just let it do its thing.

Measure between the two leads of this pup after disconnecting it. You should get a reading somewhere between 12KΩ and 25KΩ. Given those hexheads, it's probably one of the "overwound" shredder-metal types, so my guess would be north of 18K.

If you don't have a multimeter, you should get one if you're going to be doing guitar rewiring and/or troubleshooting.

In our References section, ChrisK has a post about removing HB covers which may also be of help to you.

[toast]

The HB checks out at 14.36K ohms (ohms spelled out since I can't get the Greek letter to show up right.)

I looked at 1728.com and this all looks very do-able. Now I need to find wire small enough. Everything I have is industrial strength, large strand, 16ga and bigger.

IIRC, that one pot functioned like a tone/volume combined. At about halfway it was sort of quiet and muddy but loud and bright at either end of the rotation or maybe the other way around.

See, now I'm going to have to give you the long story I was trying to avoid earlier. Oh well...

I have no plans to revive this guitar. It's a Sears Harmony with a plywood body (such a fine tone wood) and a replacement neck of the wrong scale. (Like this one: www.bargenquast.com/photos/albums/steph/guitar/ElectricAndAmps.jpg but this one has the original neck. Ironically, my guitar was originally gloss black but I repainted it in '97 to a satin gray, like this one.) It's impossible to tune. One octave is fret 11 with a slight bend. Try to compensate for that all the way up the fretboard! And the action is so high you could drive a bus under the strings. It has no redeeming qualities... even the chrome parts have rust spots. I plan to save the pots (provided they work), the output jack and the pickups.

My super secret project is nothing fancy. When I was 16 or 17 I saw the band Marcy Playground live. The guitar that guy was playing was an acoustic with an electric pickup attached to a piece of wood fastened in the middle of the sound hole. The way that guitar growled was so beautiful... I think he eventually went to a manufactured unit in place of that but nevertheless.

I've had a $99 Fender acoustic for years now and always wanted to try the electric pickup thing but I was always too unsure of the wiring and didn't want to screw up my only acoustic guitar.

About a year ago I got a Takamine (EG540 STCY) with onboard pre-amp, EQ and tuner. I thought I'd plug that into an amp and get the same pretty growling distortion. Um, no. Gain of any significant amount is mostly a feedback party. It picks up every little sound - such as someone coughing across the room - amplifies and distorts it. Not at all what I was hoping for. But that's not why I got the Takamine so...

Back to the Fender and this little HB. I want to install it permanantly. I'd like to add a series/parallel/coil cut switch and a phase reversing switch as shown on 1728.com. Why do I think I can do this now when I couldn't do it in '96? I have several things now that I didn't have as a teenager, such as a multimeter and common-sense.

Although you might beg to differ with the latter since it would make more sense to just play an electric guitar. I have three electrics - well, two now that one is in pieces on the floor - and it's not the same.

Okay, there's the long version. Thanks for the welcome and help, newey. I'll let you know how this goes.

[D2o]

I looked at 1728.com and this all looks very do-able. Now I need to find wire small enough. Everything I have is industrial strength, large strand, 16ga and bigger.

PHONE WIRE - the kind with the four, coated solid core conductors housed in the beige vinyl casing (wolf's idea, too, by the way!) I've put a picture at the bottom of this post.

It's impossible to tune. One octave is fret 11 with a slight bend. Try to compensate for that all the way up the fretboard! And the action is so high you could drive a bus under the strings.

Is it a bolt-on neck? Sounds like a shim might help if placed under the screws on the guitar body end of the part of the neck that attaches to the body (i.e. the shim will be compressed between the body and the neck, but the end result is that the headstock end of the neck is lower, so the action is lower near the area you have just shimmed ... shum? ... sham?)

EDIT: HORRIBLE TEXT ART ILLUSTRATING HORRIBLE DESCRIPTION OF HORRIBLE SHIM:

headstock ccccccccc neck
ccccccccccccccccccc=========
ccccccccccccccccccc=========
ccccccccccccccccccc=========
ccccccccccccccccccccccccccshim
ccccccccccccccccccc=========
ccccccccccccccccccc=
ccccccccccccccccccc=========
ccccccccccccccccccccccccc body

I'd like to add a series/parallel/coil cut switch and a phase reversing switch as shown on 1728.com. Why do I think I can do this now when I couldn't do it in '96? I have several things now that I didn't have as a teenager, such as a multimeter and common-sense.

Don't be using any common sense. That can be a real party-killer.

Your idea of using a humbucker should work, I think you could even skip the volume, tone and switch part if you wanted.

But that's not what you want. You want it as in wolf's 1728 diagram. The wiring should be the same ... it may just be a bit messier than if it was hidden behind a pickguard.

You've mentioned mounting the pickup, but what are you thinking in terms of mounting the controls - are you prepared to drill into the guitar?

D2o

[newey]

I want to install it permanantly. I'd like to add a series/parallel/coil cut switch and a phase reversing switch as shown on 1728.com.

OK, I see where you're headed now, and it sounds like the pup is good to go. A couple of ideas, perhaps . . .

• You may want to try it out temporarily first, before you put any screw holes in your acoustic. With acoustics, such things do actually affect the sound quality.
  
  
• You may not need to permanently mount it anyway. I have a mag pickup for my acoustic that fits in the soundhole with a spring-loaded clamp. You might be able to come up with something similar, so you can remove it for those camping trips when you won't be needing it.
  
  
• You may have difficulty fitting all the switching you want to the guitar, and again, it means extra holes. If you've never tried fishing a wiring harness into a hollow-bodied guitar, you have no appreciation for what's involved. So. you should nail down exactly what you want/need first. A series/parallel/coil cut switch would probably produce a nice range of sounds. Phase reversal of the 2 coils inside a humbucker is not likely to bring useable sounds to the table, because the coils are probably quite similar to each other, and are so close together.
  
  If it's just the series/parallel/coil cut, one DPDT center-on would do it, and you might be able to mount one right alongside the pickup, in the soundhole, mounted to whatever you're mounting the pup to.
  

And, that Sears guitar doesn't sound so bad. Needs some intonation work, and perhaps some neck fitment issues. If you're going to pitch it, send it to me instead!

[andy]

sumpthin' tells me I better be more careful in the use of the word "half-butt" from now on

That's enough of your cheek!

[ashcatlt]

I say definitely try it out before spending too much time soldering. I suspect you'd do fine with just an S/P switch. The single coil may not sound all that great, or all that much different from the parallel position, and it will not be humbucking (duh). I also don't think you need the phase switch, unless you play "Wish You Were Here" regularly.

When you figure out how to mount the thing let me know. This is one of the projects which have been on my list for a while now. Unfortunately I have little in the way of fabrication skills and even less in the way of tools. I was thinking of some form of metal box (maybe a junction box?) which has the switch and maybe a thumbwheel type volume pot. The real question is how to attach it in a semi-permanent manner...

[newey]

I thought I'd plug that into an amp and get the same pretty growling distortion. Um, no. Gain of any significant amount is mostly a feedback party.

You may experience more of the same stuffing a humbucker into a soundhole. Most acoustic soundhole pups have a pretty low output, I know mine does. Of course. the goal is to sound acoustic, so gain isn't usually part of the program.

I remember, back in the day, Mark Farner of Grand Funk Railroad used to play a Gibson hollowbody onstage with the f-holes taped over with masking tape to avoid feedback. Ugly, but it worked, mostly.

So, you ought to consider covering as much of that soundhole as possible if it's mega-gain you're after.

Ash's idea of a thumbwheel pot is interesting. You could probably miniaturize the controls quite a bit if you put your mind to it.

Again, the trick is how to mount it. Any mounting is bound to be semi-permanent since you'll clearly need to destring the guitar to get it in and out of there. The acoustic soundhole pups like mine are very thin for just this reason. I can just barely slide mine under the strings to get it in the soundhole.

[toast]

You guys might laugh at this but I already had "shim" under the neck from when I rewired it years ago. I used flat cardboard... not sure why, probably because it was the only thing I had.




If I used more cardboard or actual wood shim I bet it'd work better.

The way you guys talk about this guitar makes me want to make it work properly and put it back together and play it. It's hard enough to think about junking it because it was my first guitar and that's the only reason I've held onto it so long.

Jeez... I came here to ask about this pickup and now you guys are going to have me completely resurrecting this stupid guitar. Aw man!

*wandering off to look for switches*

[D2o]

If I used more cardboard or actual wood shim I bet it'd work better.

So long as you use something that doesn't compress (i.e. don't use corrugated cardboard), you are mainly okay. I use piled (not folded) layers of construction paper so that it doesn't compress much, and so that I can get the exact height I need.

Low tech, for sure ... but it works.

However, it is odd that you had already shimmed it and it was still very high.

Can you post a picture of the pocket that accepts the neck in the guitar's body, from an angle that is parallel with the guitar's body? (i.e. lay it flat on a table and then crouch down and take a picture from the same height).

Also, can you post a picture of the neck, sort of like the one below, so we can get an idea of how straight it is (or is not)?



Thanks,
D2o

P.S. I am guessing your local municipal goverment must be freaking out with that capacitor missing from their power supply?

[D2o]

... hang on ... I think I read that are not using an original neck, right?

I wonder if the back of the heel (the part of the neck that gets screwed into the body - the red area below) needs to be shaved down a little bit (with a big bastard file or something)?

heel===========================================headstock
heel=====

D2o

[toast]

Dec 2, 2008 10:06:28 GMT -5 D2o said:

... hang on ... I think I read that are not using an original neck, right?

I wonder if the back of the heel (the part of the neck that gets screwed into the body - the red area below) needs to be shaved down a little bit (with a big bastard file or something)?

heel===========================================headstock
heel=====

D2o

That's what I'm thinking. I did add more shim and put a string on to check the play. It's almost playable but the amount of shim under the neck right now is ridiculous. If I put pressure on the right spots it'll detune... kinda like a trem arm only it doesn't come back into tune. Not cool.

Plus, as best I can tell the bridge is mounted about 1/4" too far toward the neck: my fault. In paint prep I filled the pickguard holes and I mistakenly filled the bridge mounting holes, too. I had to guess where it went and I was off.

This thread is so far OT maybe I should start a new one in a more appropriate section?

[D2o]

This thread is so far OT maybe I should start a new one in a more appropriate section?

This thread has a topic? ;D

I think you are okay to leave it here, but there is no harm in starting a post in the "lutherie and repair" section about the best method to measure the correct position for the bridge and the best way to deal with the neck issue.

You are likely going to attract more talent than the likes of me.

D2o

[ChrisK]

If this link doesn't work (select the free online tool fret position calculator at the bottom),
www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Electric_guitar_tremolos/Wilkinson_Gotoh_VS-100N_Tremolo.html

Go to the StewMac Bridge position calculator

Go to "Bridges, tailpieces"

Go to "Electric guitar Tremolos"

Go to "Wilkinson/Gotoh VS-100N Tremolo"

Go to "free online tool fret position calculator"

[toast]

ChrisK, I can't thank you enough for that . I would have been shooting myself in the foot by moving the bridge AWAY from the neck. It's 25-9/16" from the nut when it should be 24-7/8". I always thought this neck was longer than the original but it's obviously shorter. Thanks again.