Advice sought for new bass amp

[flateric]

Need to upgrade from current 150W Marshall Basslines 1 x 15 combo to something with a bit more headroom for the bigger, noisier gigs, looking for 250 - 300W, maybe a combo, maybe a cab and head. Any opinions on the Hartke cobo's? Hydrive and VX range, or the Warwick or Trace Elliot Combos?
What are the pro's/con's of a 2 x 10 config vs a 1 x 15 ?

[ux4484]

250-300Watts is more than a noisy gig. I played rooms with 250+ people back in the day, and I never cranked my 150W Peavy bass amp over 5 or 6.
It maybe time to start mic'ing your cab to the P.A.

[andy]

This could get exteremely in-depth, but to keep it brief, in my experience...

A head and cab will probably serve you better. The sound just tends to be clearer, and portabiltiy is actually better when carrying things in smaller parts- believe me from a lot of late night car-unloading!

As for brands, Hartke amps have been, in my experience very, very powerful, and with a good range of tone adjustment, although a rather sensitive set of controls- the tone is smooth and cool, but it is easy to over egg both the volume and the massive, massive low end. I am not a fan of the aluminium speakers, and I think that they are aimed more at modern 'slap' styles, and are a bit nasal for most classic/roots sounds. They do make a trad paper cone too, but I have not had the chace to use those. I assume that the Hydrive is a Hartke model as is the VX?

Warwick make very good 'rock' amps, sounding big and smooth with a fair amount of depth but not so great for crisp clarity. Nice and warm and probably what most folks are looking for.

Trace Elliot. I had great experience of a Trace, but it was a V6 valve head. Warm yet bright, and really good sounding, but not the classic Trace sound. I think the new ones are based on the multi band EQ, solid state ones, which I had a bit less affinity with. They can be a bit laborious to get sounding good, and have a low mid emphasis which often feels odd to play- for recording it is the kind of sound that often gets EQ'd in, so technically it is good from a musical piont of view, but can be a bit of an aquired taste.

A 2x10 over a 1x15? Definition is the word. 10's have a punch and clarity that 15's don't- the sub frequencies won't be so present, but they ain't all that. Depending on the room all that low end can be a bit of a problem, and a pair of 10's can kick out a good whack all the same, just with more mid presence to give more immediate power to the sound. I think that two speakers tend to sound cleaner too, with one, of whatever size tending to break up a little earlier.

I won't dissagree with ux4484, as wattage is not everything, but I would stick my neck out and stick with the 'more the better' aesthetic for bass gear. The more power you have available, the cleaner your sound will be at any given volume, and remember that the cab you use will effect how that power comes across- 1000 watts through a tiny cab with 1x10" will sound less powerful than 120 watts through an 8x10 roadie-buster. Just get the right balance of parts, and have some more welly to spare at any one time.

I feel a bit ashamed to mention it on a free minded forum, but do check out Markbass gear (www.markbass.it). I don't know about US availability, but they make excellent toned and very lightweight amps and cabs which I reckon are the way forward in bass riggage. High quality, high performance stuff, with minimum hassle and haulage- take as much salt as you like with this, as I am an official endorser, but rest assured that I chased them on account of the ease and quality of the stuff, and what I hoped I could offer to the company. I presently use a 2x10 which almost steps into the place of a 4x10 I was running before, and the amp I use now is more versatile, simpler to use, and more powerful than the much larger and heavier amp I used to use. Basicially, I am a very happy customer, but if any administrators see fit to edit or remove this last paragraph, I won't be arguing- I can see why, although it is said with the best possible intentions. PM me if I have over-stepped a mark!

Hope this all helps...

[ux4484]

Dec 15, 2008 20:52:25 GMT -5 andy said:

I won't dissagree with ux4484, as wattage is not everything, but I would stick my neck out and stick with the 'more the better' aesthetic for bass gear. The more power you have available, the cleaner your sound will be at any given volume, and remember that the cab you use will effect how that power comes across- 1000 watts through a tiny cab with 1x10" will sound less powerful than 120 watts through an 8x10 roadie-buster. Just get the right balance of parts, and have some more welly to spare at any one time.

I should probably have mentioned that I used to use a sizable Bass Reflex cab my Dad and I built (2 15' EV speakers) that projected very well with the Peavy Head I used. Alas... I surrendered that cab, when we disbanded (as the speakers were on loan from the drummers brother ).

As I'll probably never need a traveling bass setup again. I was going more conceptual than actual hardware... but I'm with you on the separate head and cab. We used to play a 2nd story Hall regularly, and smaller pieces are always easier than just about any combo. Nothing like going on stage already soaking wet from being your own roadie. Unless you're going to mic a Bass combo, you should go separate head and cab.

MarkBass is most certainly available here from Musician's Friend.

[flateric]

thanks for the feedback - some useful opinions. Markbass may be great gear but their UK prices are out of my reach I'm afraid.
Miking or D.I. the bass combo into the mixing desk and PA is something I want to avoid as it really muddies up the vocals trying to get through. I'm coming round to the idea of a 4 x 10 cab and separate head so the choices have just widened. Guess i need to find some places where i can spend a day demoing the gear now.

[andy]

Guess i need to find some places where i can spend a day demoing the gear now.

It's never a good idea to buy gear without trying it, but do bear in mind that far more than with guitars, the way a bass comes across by itself is very different to how it will sound in with other instuments. Worth keeping at the back of your mind with all that lovely growl and snap firing right at you.

[ux4484]

Dec 17, 2008 11:30:36 GMT -5 flateric said:

Miking or D.I. the bass combo into the mixing desk and PA is something I want to avoid as it really muddies up the vocals trying to get through.

Funny you should say something about muddying the vocals. We always taped our shows to listen to things we needed to work on, the quality of sound of the recordings (especially vocals) went up significantly when we mic'd our cabs (since the P.A. was no longer fighting with our amps).

I suppose it depends on your mixer and P.A. setup. We had a multi channel P.A. (with monitors for each out channel) and four cabs. One output for vocals, and another for instruments. Originally we USUALLY didn't mic the instruments except for larger gigs (two more cabs you didn't have to carry in), but it was so much easier on the ears (for us) when we mic'd them that it became our standard practice for any gig that had the space for it.

We did have a compact set up for small gigs, but as I was the youngest (and had just come of age to play clubs months before we split) we had just started playing those kinds of jobs. We would just bring in our practice gear, mine was under powered so we mic'd it and sent it out mono on a seperate cab (3 P.A. cabs for those gigs).

The down side of spending $$$ on your P.A. set up is what to do with it if/when you split up. Breaking up is hard to do for couples, but nothing compared to the spite of 4 guy splitting up.

On trying stuff out in stores: I know I've said it before, try to go into your shop during a slow time (morning) so you have time to spend trying the equipment. Only nice thing about chain stores is they have the space to give you an idea how your gear will sound in a larger space. Don't forget to bring your bass with you so you know how YOUR bass will sound with your new amp.

[flateric]

Heh, band problems are more intense than any marriage.! Getting the concept home that micing (or DI) thru the PA means you can TURN_YOUR_AMP_DOWN_NOW so the vocals don't have to compete with DOUBLE the sound volume has not really been embraced yet. End result: Vocals have to go louder and everything gets forced thru the PA making the whole lot more mushy and guess what - the vocals get lost so need even more volume. It can be a vicious circle, but I've wandered OT.
I don't want to go thru the PA, I want the headspace to remain independant of the PA/vocals. Then I can retain control over my own sound contribution. The search for knowledge and opinions continues

[flateric]

Anyone have experience of the Eden Combos - the Nemesis 210 (250W) theres one going locally second hand at what looks like a reasonable price

[ux4484]

Saw the Smithereens two weeks ago. All their amps were mic'd (small venue, about 250 people), they sounded great for music and vocals.
BTW, DI would be direct in which is VERY different from mic'd. When you mic a cab, you maintain the "vibe" of the amp with its speaker.

back On Topic... get thee to a music store!

[andy]

Dec 17, 2008 18:01:19 GMT -5 flateric said:

Heh, band problems are more intense than any marriage.!

Yeah, at least a marriage starts with the premise that you actually like each other! You can start to build everything else on that. With a band you build everything, and then find out whether you agree on any of it!

I did play a Nemesis 2x10 years back- I remember it being pretty cool, but I only played it alone, and it was one of the first 'proper' bass amps I played through, so I probably wasn't making highly informed comparisions. Not wanting to fall into giving an opinion based purely on a brands' reputation, I am tempted to say that if it is designed by the same folks that make the higher end Eden stuff, it comes from pretty good blood.

[flateric]

I've pretty much decided a 250W combo is not a significant upgrade for me in terms of power, though quality would no doubt be great.

OK, so moving up to a bigger system, 300 - 350W head(?enough?), 2 x 10 cab and a 1 x 15 cab means I shouldn't put my back out lifting stuff about.
The Hartke heads seem to get good reviews, the 3500 and the cheaper LH500, but I've read so many bad reviews of the VX cabs and the XL cabs I'm a bit worried now.

How about these 2 options?:

• GK 600 head (300w) + GK 210BLX + GK115BLX cabs weighs in at just under £500
  
  
• Ashdown Mag 300H EVO II head + Mag 115 cab + Mag 210 cab = £560
  

Anything else I should be looking at in the same price range?

[ChrisK]

weighs in at just under £500

So how much does £500 weigh? ;D ;D

[andy]

I think it is almost as Heavy as METAL!!!

[cynical1]

Dec 18, 2008 19:01:54 GMT -5 ChrisK said:

So how much does £500 weigh? ;D ;D

Right now, about $753.92...but check back frequently as the dollar is getting lighter as we speak...

[flateric]

::)silly arses

[ChrisK]

Gee Sparky, just tryin' to he£p.

It's euro back that's gonna take a "pounding" after a££.

(We don't want to see any of that "quid" pro quo either.)

[flateric]

I'm slowly narrowing down the options with the money available. Your views on the following options would be appreciated:

Head:
GK 600 Backline
Hartke LH500
Hartke 3500A
Peavey Tour 450
Ashdown Mag 300 Evo II
Warwick ProFet 3.2

Cabs:
GK 210 + 115 BLX (Backline)
Hartke VX or XL 210 + 115 cabs
Ashdown Mag 210 + 115 Evo cabs
Peavey TVX 210 + 115 cabs
Warwick WCA 211 + 115 Pro - (each £100 dearer than the other cabs)

Which would you go for, and why?

[andy]

We probably should have asked this earlier, but what sort of sound are you looking for? And what sort of bass are you going to be playing through this setup?

[flateric]

Heh, I guess i should have told you earlier, I'm playing a (home made) ric, a jazz bass, a warmoth gecko 5-string mainly, and mostly the jazz bass. I play in 2 bands, one is new wave/punk/rock: green day/ramones/hives/blink, that sort of thing, the other band is more middle of the road pub pop and dance covers, so I need something pretty versatile.

[cynical1]

Eric -

I can't speak to anything but the Peavey equipment...and I don't know what the used/trade-in Peavey equipment market is like in the UK...and I don't know what type of sound you're looking for...however...from my experience just about anything Peavey is bombproof.

Back in the day I used a Peavey 260 bass head. (As I recall, it put out 130W into 4 ohms) I bought this used in probably '77 and used it for over 10-12 years. This thing went through living in garages and basements, (flooded basement once) spilled beer, being plugged into club wiring that would scare a Chinese Fire Marshall, various bumps and bruises and never gave me the slightest trouble...

At the time I was playing a later Ripper bass in smaller clubs in a three piece and could pull more then enough to drive two cabinets (1x15 & 2x10 w/horn) over miked drums (don't ask me why the drummer had to mike is rig...I never understood myself...) and never went over 7...

I traded this amp in for a used Peavey Mark VI bass head (250 W into 4 ohms) just to get the built in chorus, compression and EQ. This head was treated much nicer then the old 260...and again, never gave me any trouble and still drove the 2 cabinets without any trouble. At 250 watts this thing had plenty of headroom for the gigs I was playing (...no more miked drummers...cardinal rule now...) At the time I was playing a Fondation bass and was able to get everything from jazz, piano bass to some genuine growl & thunder tones out of this monster.

And for me, 250W was always more then enough power. I would also never have a bass amp without an EQ again

This amp was sold off due to some family crisis, along with the two cabinets, years ago. Wish I'd have kept this one.

Sorry I can't be more specific on the details, but these amps are now probably in a garage or landfill somewhere by now. I stopped gigging more then 10 years ago...

The best advise I can give you has already been given. Take your bass with you and spend some time trying the amp out. If you have cabinets, drag them with you.

I can't speak to the new Peavey amps, but if they're half as good as the old stuff they'll be bulletproof. And Peavey customer support is one of the best, bar none. I can honestly say, in all the years I played, I never had a single problem from the two Peavey amps I've owned.

Well, enough strolling down memory lane. Ramblings terminated...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[andy]

I see. Well, in that case I will try to put the amps into groups- bear in mind that I have not neccessarily played those exact models, and my opinion of the GK is based only on hearing other people playing them.

That said, I would say the the GK stuff tends to be quite crisp and clear sounding with plenty of sharp twang for those Green Day/Blink 182 bass tones, cutting but with a warmer undertone.

The Hartke and Peavey stuff tends to be flatter EQ wise, with a big, dry tone. They both tend to have lots of control options, but don't naturally emphasize any particular frequency- one might see this as being very versatile, or perhaps a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none scenario. They probably fall into the 'growly' category.

Ashdown and Warwick are both smoother toned, great for deep, classic rock tones, and many of the electric bass sounds on pop records from the 50's till now. I'd like to say more, but 'deep' and 'smooth' say pretty much everything I have in memory of them!

Those categories sound a bit far removed from each other on paper, though of course one of the joys of playing bass is that you can turn up and plug into almost anything and feel comfortable. The primary concern is really how much treble to you want to cut through the mix, as with rigs of the type we are discussing here, once the band is playing, it is really between whether or not you are loud enough! The finer midrange detail gets all covered in guitars, keys, and vocals anyway.

As for cabs, I think it is a choice between either the best priced, or just sticking with the matching brand ones. I have mixed and matched many cabs, of course, but the chance of finding some tonal holy grail by doing so is pretty low, and there is a lot to be said for the professional look of a matching rig, compared to the jumble sale apperance of some bands backlines. So I would say that it depends on whether you want the look of a pro rig (regardless of whether it is or isn't in actuality) or don't want to fork out just for the sake of looks. This all comes with the assumtion that those models are rated sufficiently to cope with the output of the amp without breaking step.

I guess this answer is not as direct as the one you asked for, but I suppose that the previous paragraphs cover the "and why?" part!

Which one would I go for? Well, I looked at all these myself and went elsewhere, but any will do the job- the Hartke and Peavey gear have the least specialised tone in my opinion, but also don't sound as classy as the others. Perhaps the easiest way to think about it is to consider which band you might favour in terms of sound? Though with the GK the treble twang will be there for the punk, and must be tamable when needed for other stuff.

[flateric]

Well, I looked at all these myself and went elsewhere

Out of interest, where did you go?

[andy]

That takes us back to the Markbass thing.

It's partly the sound, partly the weight, and partly the funky colours!

[flateric]

Aah, ok, its partly the pricetag that afffects me.

[andy]

Yeah, to be fair I do get a reasonable discount. I also decided to risk it with just a 2x10, and have found that it covers 90% of what my 4x10 used to. It isn't as omnipotent as some rigs, but if you don't mind shifts in tone as you move around stage (or just don't move about much), a well rated 2x10 can really do the job. I am not into intestine-shaking lows at every point in the club, more a controlled sound, but I have used that setup (300w amp into 400w 2x10) for unmiked gigs to great effect, and on really big stages just have enough in the monitor so that the volume remains fairly consistent from front to back, for both drums and bass.

In fact I did a gig at a wedding two weeks ago and assumed that the bass player from the support band (it was a rockers wedding!) either had his own cab with him or had run through the PA- I sat at the back of a very long pub, eating my breaded haddock with the sides of my head pumping with the bass. I asked the guy how he got such a huge sound, and he just said "it was your tiny cab, mate!"

So I'm not trying to force your hand on any particular brand, but whilst I look back on my days of a 4x10 and 1x15 slamming away next to the drummer as times of luxury, the load-out was a horror, and the myth of needing a big rig for a big sound is as unrealistic as that of needing a 100w guitar stack to be in a rock band.

I suppose that what I'm saying is that you are not under any pressure to buy the whole rig as one- just the amp and one cab will probably do you fine to start with, and mean you won't be obliged think of price as quite such a factor- it will also be better to have a small conveinient rig which you might want to add to later than have a massive one which is more than neccessary, but you hate to part with because you spent a load on it (like I did years back!).

[flateric]

These are very wise words, i think a lot of sense and experience in this, and a great balance against the gear-snobbery that filters into similar posts on some of the other guitar forums. Thanks for that. A plan is strating to crystallise.