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Post by andy on Jan 18, 2009 10:17:01 GMT -5
I am, perhaps foolshly, considering buying a double bass. My budget, if you could call it that, only stretches to the very bottom of the market, and I'm getting the impression that unlike guitars (bass or otherwise), where a cheap instrument can be perfectly useable and easily upgraded to a pro quality bit of kit, the world of the violin family is just plain expensive, to the point where £1000 is barely going to get you started. I have seen basses for just over £300, which is perfectly acceptable in guitar circles, but looks like it might be really scraping the barrel, going by opinions on double bass sites here and there.
I guess I'm just looking for some opinions from anyone who has owned or used a really cheap, plywood double bass, or come across anyone doing so, either to terrible or acceptable result.
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 18, 2009 16:41:50 GMT -5
Just before I got married...some 150 years ago...I picked up a double bass from the old Musician's Pawn Shop in Chicago for about $300.00, along with what they described as a cover and bow... As you said, it looked like it fell off the truck...
By the time I replaced the tuners, replaced and reshaped the ebony, replaced the bridge, replaced the nut, bought strings, replaced the bow and alleged cover...and refinished it I probably had twice that much into it... (...and sanding and polishing one of these things is akin to repainting a panel van...)
Lesson: Buy the instrument in playable condition. Spend the money and do it right. Nothing on a double bass is cheap to fix. I sold the bass about 5 years later for $700.00...net loss of about $200.00 and God only knows how may hours...
Just my two cents...and $200.00...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by andy on Jan 18, 2009 19:12:54 GMT -5
I see, not a happy tale. The thing is, these basses I'm looking at are £300 new! What do you think the chances are of them being any good? Despite beginners instruments starting at about £2000 in many peoples opinions, I struggle to imagine 3 big ones (which is a big outgoing to me) buying an instrument that is no use whatsoever, or as fragile as some folks suggest. I'm hoping that it's more about gear snobbery, and that no-one would sell an instrument which will just fall apart under normal use, but perhaps I'm being naive (and a skinflint  ). I suppose my best bet is to find a dealer and get on thier nerves playing their stock all day... |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 18, 2009 20:40:49 GMT -5
OK, £300.00 GBP...that's about $445.00 USD. That does sound awfully cheap for an upright bass... Where are they made...as if I had to ask...just be careful of the lead content in the finish... I would have to be very suspect of a new instrument of that size coming in so cheap.
Then again, £2,000.00 GBP, or $2,960.00 USD sounds awfully high... With the economy the way it is now, I don't think a used student model in good condition would fetch more then $1,000.00 USD, if that much, or around £675.00 GBP. Still, a lot of money for something of a novelty.
I'm not sure of how the market works over there, but here an upright bass is a serious white elephant. Most Estate Agents and Pawn Shops are thrilled to get rid of them. This is a double edged sword, in that if you ever decide to sell it you'll be the one taking the bath...
I'd haunt the classifieds, pawn shops, estate auctions and garage sales... Sooner or later something will turn up and if you arrive with cash you'll have to wipe their drool off your sleeve as you hand the money over...
Again, not sure what the arrangements are over there, but here you can lease and instrument for a fraction of the cost to purchase it outright. This way, if you find it's not for you (I never really found much use for mine, honestly) you can get out of it for a minimal expense.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 18, 2009 21:08:21 GMT -5
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Post by andy on Jan 20, 2009 15:25:15 GMT -5
Good points in both posts there, Cyn. I was originally thinking of an electric, but got lost in the romance of a full acoustic. Perhaps I should trim back the desire factor and start thinking a bit more realistically again. At least I know I could afford an instrument I could rely on, even if it does look worse the more I scratch it up! There is a company nearby me which rents instruments on a hire-purchase sort of deal, so I'll chat with them too, and I've got my eye on a couple of risk-it-for-a-biscuit Ebay B-stock items. I guess I'll have to make my mind up, and only take the best calculated risks! |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 21, 2009 0:31:51 GMT -5
Thanks, Andy...just when I thought I was out of the woods... (pun intended) Now the idea of making an upright electric is starting to fester... I found a neck here for $109.00  ...and a nice Brazilian Cherry (Jatoba) fingerboard here for $79.00  You know, I'm thinking 5 strings here...and just to piss off the purists...I'm thinking frets...yes, definitely frets...big fat 6100 fretwire...like a friggin' curb... In fact I figured it out for a 42" scale...I also included metric for all you folks across the pond...  Yep, that'll make the old pain and strife happy... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by andy on Jan 21, 2009 6:08:59 GMT -5
 There have been arguments, laws passed, and laws repealed on that one here! I think we've got to the point where neither system makes any sense! But that's some fine cockney rhyming slang... Building an electric from a pre-made neck shouldn't be too tough actually- the bodies are usually based around the curvaceous design of a 4'x4', so the sanding stage should be quite simple! You could approach the frets the ol' school way and use the rubber-band stops seen on some older instruments- easy to tweak for intonation, or go right back to fretless if needed. I came across a couple of pages with fretted double basses on them when looking for a modern manufacturer I had spotted- I couldn't find it unfortunately, but the basses look a bit like a giant dulcimer with an electric bass neck screwed on! If I come across them again I'll post a link. Anyway here are the other pages... basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=36662www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364141[/size]
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Post by newey on Jan 21, 2009 6:29:47 GMT -5
Cynical1- Fretted 5-String Electric Upright BassLooks like the purists are way ahead of you.  BTW, check out the pickups on that thing. Very cool. Also has mag and piezo pups with blending! The guy's definitely one of us! |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 21, 2009 14:57:30 GMT -5
There have been arguments, laws passed, and laws repealed on that one here! I think we've got to the point where neither system makes any sense! ...like the British Standard wrenches you needed to work on the old Triumph bikes... [/size][/quote] But that's some fine cockney rhyming slang... [/quote] Let me digress... When I was first coming up, in another life long ago, I had a good friend, originally from London, who was famous for his Cockney slang. Didn't get much mileage around Chicago...but old habits die hard. His name was Simon, but he went by the nickname PJ. He explained this in slang: "Simon Schamas is Cockney for pajamas, you know, 'Simons'...PJ's your tosser slang for pajamas in the States...follow, you cupid stunt Yank?" He played drums for everybody and it was always fun working out a new tune. No one could ever understand him...and his explanations were sometimes more obtuse then his slang... By the time you stopped laughing you forgot what the Hell you were playing... As George Bernard Shaw once said, "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." No old school for me on this one...just big honking metal frets... I pulled the frets off an old Ripper bass years ago...long story... It looked nice, but I never played it enough to get proficient at it. I play even less now, so the idea of building an instrument that'll require any modicum of skill to play seems a fool's errand... And you're dead on with the dulcimer or 4" x 4" analogy for the bodies on these things... I need to come up with a much more esthetically pleasing body design. And good links, BTW. Very informative. I like your bass boards better then ours...much more entertaining. American bass players seem rather dull by comparison. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by andy on Jan 21, 2009 15:58:47 GMT -5
You'd have to know your way around a chisel to carve the first thing that popped into my mind! In fact that brings to mind the old euphamism- 'double bassing'. Just mime the action, and if you're in the right frame of mind I won't need to explain further... |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 21, 2009 17:41:42 GMT -5
...odd...but I didn't spend much time at all figuring that one out...right into the gutter... I was toying with the idea of taking a standard Jazz bass profile and stretching it. Something like this:  I was also thinking of bringing the top or right horn out more to allow mounting some type of rest. I could also mount all the controls on this horn as well, versus the controls being stuffed off to the side. Making the body in 3 vertical stages would allow a hollow body for resonance. I liked the 5 string electric cello, newey...but the sticker is a killer... Must research more frugal (cheaper...much cheaper) ways of setting this up. I need to finish a few projects before starting this one...but the planning has already begun....muhahahaha.... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by ux4484 on Jan 21, 2009 18:24:26 GMT -5
Hey Andy, did you contact any schools? On this side of the pond High Schools and Colleges often auction/sell off old instruments. One of my buds from H.S. was able to go back and buy the Tuba he played in Band. Right there next to it was the Double Bass I used to play as well, for under $300. It was very serviceable and a good bass as I remember, but I had a tiny apartment at the time and couldn't even consider it. Check for school closings and estate sales as well. Treasure can oft be uncovered.
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Post by newey on Jan 21, 2009 19:57:45 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting you buy one, Cyn. More just pointing out that "there is no new thing under the sun". But there may be some ideas of use to you there as well. I noted that the stated design goal was an instrument for bass guitarists to transition to double bass, essentially what you are proposing. Also, the thing has a wicked radius on the fretboard, so as to allow bowing- which makes for some interesting curves in the frets. I assume bowing is not on your agenda here, though. I like the elongated Jazz bass body idea. Most of these "EUB"s, as they are called, seem to mimic the Steinberger style. I suspect this is because those double bass players who do go electric are looking for portability and light weight after years of lugging around a double bass. More radical might be an elongated Flying V style body. You could use the points of the V to rest it on the floor, maybe put little rubber chair feet on there to protect it.  I'm impressed that you feel confident enough in your woodworking skills to attempt a 3-piece hollow elongated J-bass body. Me, I could probably build a piezo-powered gut bucket, but that's about it. |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 21, 2009 21:09:39 GMT -5
I could probably build a piezo-powered gut bucket, but that's about it. I found this on Constructing an Under Saddle TransducerThis helps lower the cost substantially... Although I'd be thrilled if Norm Abrams died and left me all his tools, you'd be surprised to find out how much you can do with a table saw, router, routing table, drill press, a boat load of clamps and Dremel tool... For a very nominal charge most cabinet shops or better lumber yards will plane and join your boards when you purchase the wood. Seems to me the trickiest part of this is the bracing. You'd have to build it strong enough to take the force from the strings, but still stay flexible enough to provide resonance. No problem...I have nothing but time to figure this one out. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by newey on Jan 21, 2009 21:30:38 GMT -5
Yes. If it were a guitar, a neck-through design would do the trick but that'd be one big hunk of wood for a 42" scale! Your EUB build concept thread seems to have surplanted Andy's original thread here- but since Andy's practically a God now, I figure he can fend for himself pretty well. EDIT:Andy- Don't know if you saw this guy's webpage but he had some insight on the cheaper plywood basses. |
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Post by andy on Jan 22, 2009 6:59:19 GMT -5
That is, after all, where much of my humour resides.  The Jazz bass shape may work, though I would suggest putting the controls on the left horn, just so that they don't get in the way of your playing action- if the string height ends up like an acoustic bass then there may be a lot more right hand movement than on a standard electric. Also, the horns are really there for strapped on balance, so the right one may be a bit uncomfortable to have- it seems that most electric uprights aim to emulate the shape of the acoustic instrument either with 'wings' or removable bars. I don't know if this a practical issue, or just designed to suit those moving from upright bass. I'm picturing it looking cool though, so maybe maybe thats to keep in mind too. ux4484, I hadn't thought of that- in fact both my parents work in schools, so I really should check with them. In fact, educational organisations are exempt from certain taxes here I think... Hmmm... Oh, thanks Newey! It's nice to be appreciated, but that is perhaps taking things a bit... Oh... oh yeah... I see what you mean now. Thanks for the link, but it seems to be going through to a Yahoo 'cannot find this page' page. Could you just check that the address is all correct please? I'm keen to read up all I can on cheapo basses! That's cool, lets just run with it. |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 22, 2009 11:31:25 GMT -5
That's cool, lets just run with it. Sorry for sort of wandering off with this... Having lugged an upright bass to a couple of gigs and through several house moves I was reminded of just how unwieldy these things are, so the EUB idea struck a chord. (pun intended) I agree with Andy that there is a certain "romance" to these monsters, but like many romances, the novelty wears thin when you live together for a while... If you run across a standard upright bass the link from the previous post on constructing a piezo transducer may come in handy. I found another link, Palatino EUB pick up styles, that briefly covers pickups and transducers for an upright bass...may be useful information. The title refers to an EUB, but he uses a standard maple bass bridge, so it would apply to a standard upright bass as well. When you do pickup a standard upright bass try to get it with a hardshell or heavily padded soft case. The basic cloth covers are good for keeping dust off, but if you're planning on gigging with it they're right next to useless...and make friends with someone who owns a chippy van...(I loved that scene from The Commitments) Good point on the wings. I think moving the control to the other wing makes more sense. The left wing, facing the front, will probably be the trickiest to figure out. I'll probably set it up with multiple points to mount the wing to allow playing in a standing and sitting position. Thanks for pointing that out...I see a lot of cardboard templates in my future... Good luck on scaring up an upright. You'll love the tone...and it's a great workout, too... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by newey on Jan 22, 2009 15:03:51 GMT -5
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Post by andy on Jan 22, 2009 19:43:02 GMT -5
That is a very good point- I need to be able to fit the thing into a Ford KA! It did manage a 4x10, plus 1x15, plus amp, plus basses in a gigbag on the passenger seat when I used to use such a huge rig, but I'd better do some measuring up here.
They all say that...
Thanks for the link, though after all your good effort, I had emailed him just a day or two ago! He was very helpful, but perhaps I was the last straw in all those enquiries he was getting from cheapo bass players???
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 22, 2009 20:30:24 GMT -5
I need to be able to fit the thing into a Ford KA! Interesting... Determining the bass carrying potential of your vehicle is simple. Image a very dead and stiff Stephen Fry...with a big stick in his head... If that fits in your vehicle then you can carry an upright bass... Ford KA, huh...if you've got the wagon...and you take out the rear window and front seat it should fit. If you've got the sedan consider a luggage rack for the roof...you can tie it up there like a deer carcass... Good luck on this. Send pictures... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by andy on Jan 22, 2009 21:07:08 GMT -5
I passed up all manner of selective copy and paste quotations there. Man, even I have my limits!
I had somehow managed to put this obstacle to the back of my mind, and would mostly be heaving the thing around by tube-train, anyway, but the tape measure will have to come out on this one.
Should the day arrive that I have a double bass in a Ford KA, I will post the evidence! Failing that, some pictures of my nice new electric upright...
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Post by andy on Jan 25, 2009 6:36:11 GMT -5
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 25, 2009 12:25:33 GMT -5
Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about... That would be the perfect instrument to crossover from standard to upright bass with. The only non-standard electric bass component is the body. Everything else comes right off of eBay... And you can certainly get the final tab in for well under the $4,195.00 (£3,075.00) list for a 5 string... And there's enough pictures and video's on his website to give you a very good reference for construction... Now I'm inspired... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by newey on Jan 25, 2009 12:55:20 GMT -5
And, if you want it without the frets, it's $100 more?  Nice business when you can get people to pay you to avoid doing the fretwork . . . |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 25, 2009 13:10:57 GMT -5
And, if you want it without the frets, it's $100 more? Nice business when you can get people to pay you to avoid doing the fretwork . . . The difference is probably the wood. You can get away with rosewood for about 20%-25% the cost of the same fingerboard in ebony. You can do a lot of fretwork for the difference. And finding good ebony to work with is getting tougher these day as well. Example: Rosewood fingerboard blank = $25.00 - $35.00 Ebony fingerboard blank = $95.00 - $125.00 (more if it's aged) Plus the shaping and finish sanding is a lot more involved on a fretless ebony fingerboard. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by andy on Jan 25, 2009 14:45:23 GMT -5
Yes, those prices are pretty high for fairly standard looking parts, aren't they. Just don't forget to budget for the cymbal stand...
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 25, 2009 16:35:43 GMT -5
...Just don't forget to budget for the cymbal stand... Aaarrgghhh!!! Cymbal stand...there goes the budget... I was thinking of mounting it to a mechanic's creeper...then I could do Eddie VanHalenesque charges across the stage with it... Reading through the site he does use some decent components...Bartolini pickups and what looks like a Hipshot or ABM bridge...still, as you say, a little steep for off the shelf parts and an alder/cherry wood body. Electricity must be expensive in the Northwest...all that renewable hydroelectric power... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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leebarker
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by leebarker on Jan 26, 2009 11:35:07 GMT -5
Thanks for checking out the Barker Bass and including it in this interesting discussion. I'm happy to answer your questions. An email from the site is best: www.barkerbass.comKindly, Lee Barker |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 26, 2009 13:09:57 GMT -5
Thanks for checking out the Barker Bass and including it in this interesting discussion. I'm happy to answer your questions. Lee - Welcome to the GN2 party. That's a very nice instrument you've built. I personally spent quite some time on your website and was suitably impressed. Nice sense of humor, too...especially your manual... As you've probably already gathered from this posting, most of us are here as we don't have the ready coin to purchase the instrument of our desires outright and have resorted to a DIY approach. Hence the title of this posting "Cheap Double Basses" I'm sure you'd prefer not to answer any questions I might have on the chambering and bracing of the body...so let me ask you if you'd be willing to share any information on tone wood selection. You mentioned a cherrywood top with an alder bottom. Have you ever experimented with other tone woods? What were your opinions, insights or horror stories... Again, thanks for dropping by. Don't be a stranger. We could always use a serious builder around here for the non-electronics questions. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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There have been arguments, laws passed, and laws repealed on that one here! I think we've got to the point where neither system makes any sense!
