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Post by andy on Jan 27, 2009 6:10:07 GMT -5
Hi Lee, Thanks for dropping by!
I know manufacturers are often keen to know this sort of stuff, so I first spotted your basses in a banner on a website. Don't tell the guys, but I think it was another forum, Talkbass.com, when I was looking for some confirmation of my sanity in considering buying a really cheap double bass. You have to spread your nets pretty wide to get even a reasonable opinion of them! Anyhow, not remembering the name of the company, I did some vauge searches in vain, but once that banner popped back up I was straight on it!
If you plan on sticking around, you're just the sort of fella whose experience goes a long way on this site! If not, as Cyn points out, we may not be the demographic for high end basses, but your designs have certainly got a few DIY'ers minds ticking.
Best, Andy
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leebarker
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by leebarker on Jan 27, 2009 12:20:27 GMT -5
quote: let me ask you if you'd be willing to share any information on tone wood selection. You mentioned a cherrywood top with an alder bottom. Have you ever experimented with other tone woods? What were your opinions, insights or horror stories...
Thanks for the gracious invite, CO. I certainly understand limited resources and the urge to find a way to do anything oneself. I respect those who build their own instruments--it's how I got started in the industry, and, most of all, doing it is fun and an activity in which your heart participates.
Serious bass guitar builders speak eloquently and from experience about tone woods in their electric instruments. What I've discovered in my design is that even a chambered bass guitar doesn't get much out of the wood when it is held against one's belly.
Barker Bass experience:
Though it is the right stuff for an acoustic guitar, softwoods don't work to my ear. Poplar was a failure tonally, though I liked the looks. Walnut dazzles the eye but leaves my ear a-wanting. It, like maple, is too heavy in my application. I have tried many others. The final "oh yes" came with cherry top and alder back on the B1, with passive J pickups.
The Brio, on the other hand, with a good P-bass pickup, goes to a different but equally pleasing place with alder both up and down. (That idea came not from thinking it would work, but from a cost reduction exercise. The Brio fretted four street price is $1995)
I am choosy about my moisture content, adhesives and clamping, always seeking ways to insure consistency and cost containment (I haven't raised prices in 5 years).
While I know full well that readers of this thread can build an excellent custom instrument with eBay parts for far less than a boutique maker, I am sure that if you factor in leased commercial space, heat, lights, power, water, garbage service, phone, business license, liability insurance, fire insurance, registered business name, taxes, industry association dues, marketing, advertising, web site hosting, web site maintenance, office supplies, business internet service, bookkeeping service, tool maintenance, tool sharpening, and oh yes, maybe some money to take with you when you stop off at the grocery store on your way to the bank to pay your home mortgage, you will have a better understanding of what goes into the asking price of an instrument.
I offer that in a kind tone, seeking understanding of each other as we all work to the common goal: a better bass!
Lee Barker
owner, Barker Musical Instruments
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 27, 2009 15:52:52 GMT -5
While I know full well that readers of this thread can build an excellent custom instrument with eBay parts for far less than a boutique maker, I am sure that if you factor in leased commercial space, heat, lights, power, water, garbage service, phone, business license, liability insurance, fire insurance, registered business name, taxes, industry association dues, marketing, advertising, web site hosting, web site maintenance, office supplies, business internet service, bookkeeping service, tool maintenance, tool sharpening, and oh yes, maybe some money to take with you when you stop off at the grocery store on your way to the bank to pay your home mortgage, you will have a better understanding of what goes into the asking price of an instrument. No need to explain that one...everyone always wants to pay you next Friday for work done Saturday morning before the gig... That's why I got out of it... Thanks for the insight on the tone woods. I can see where exotic and other hardwoods might require an engine hoist to move the bass in your case. 30 odd years ago I was in business a few doors down from S.D. Curlee. Randy used purpleheart in a few of his designs. You needed new extra sharp tooling to work with it...which it ate alive...and it still gouged half the time when you routed it. Just miserable stuff to work with. IMHO I think a lot of the exotics are just there for the geewhiz factor...any benefit they may offer is offset by the cost of the material, tooling and aggrevation. Thanks for coming back, Lee. Glad we didn't scare you off. Don't be a stranger. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by andy on Feb 1, 2009 10:47:30 GMT -5
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Post by andy on Feb 5, 2009 10:49:13 GMT -5
Well I've been hunting. Having missed lots of basses I was looking at on Ebay as the price just went too high, I'm just going to be keeping an eye out for 'that' bargain.
In the meantime I had had the chance to play a couple of instruments, one a student model with a really high action, and one played by the principle bassist for the London Symphony Orchestra. He very kindly offered to let me have a shot at it, despite it being insured for £100,000, and the E-string alone costing £200. A brave man, both himself and I- rest assured, a tentative walking bassline and latin groove later it was back safely where it had been stored- lying uncased on the floor in the middle of a rehearsal space!
I wouldn't leave my ukulele that way!
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 5, 2009 11:43:47 GMT -5
So, what was your impression of the £100,000 bass?
And storing it uncased on the floor...hmmmm...maybe he was planning on hooking up a dogsled team to it and navigating home in the snow with it....
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by andy on Feb 5, 2009 12:34:57 GMT -5
Actually, to be honest, I wasn't blown away. The D and G strings were nice and strong, with a full tone, but plucked, the low notes were a little underwhelming. Of course, I was looking to produce dance band bass notes on an instrument built and setup for bowed classical stuff, but given that the cost is in the middle of the price-range the wife and I have when looking at grotty little flats/apartments in London, it seems a bit OTT. That said, it did flow a lot better than playing the cheapo student one from the same venue, but not £99,600 better! You could attribute this to my lack of experience with double basses and not really knowing what makes for a good one or otherwise, but I have to say the price did seem a bit unjustified. It wasn't even that pretty!  |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 5, 2009 14:47:45 GMT -5
I have to agree with you. For all the expense, effort and inconvenience of an upright bass the tone just wasn't enough to justify owning one...IMHO...
I think you have to come up with this instrument in order to appreciate it. Playing an electric bass is like painting in watercolors...where it always seemed to me playing an upright bass was like pounding out a dented fender... You have to play so hard just to be heard the idea of nuance and subtlety go right out the window...
I have a great respect for the jazz bassists who can make their instrument sing. It isn't easy...
Thanks for the insight. Gives me more reason to toy with the EUB plot....
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by andy on Feb 6, 2009 6:15:37 GMT -5
Mmmm. I do have a nasty habit of beginning one thing only to give up and move on before really seeing it through, BUT... the high degree of hassle and cost next to the mostly idealistic benefits is starting to look like a bit of a decision maker. I'll keep an eye out, but I have just spent the bass money on a mandolin.  And it is probably about time I started putting all my money into the house buying fund too (yes dear, I'll be there in a minute- just finishing this paragraph...). There are some reasonably priced electric uprights out there, or perhaps after all this time here I really should consider building my own one. That said, the evil eye has now started to peruse a few fretless 'acoustic' basses. Absolutely no use acoustically, but with a set of flatwounds, they might help to get the sort of tone I'm starting to look for.  |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 6, 2009 12:03:09 GMT -5
Are you looking for this "upright bass" type tone live, or in the studio?
Back in the dark analog ages we used the old "acoustic chamber" trick for recording. By acoustic chamber read as bathroom, or WC. Follow me on this...it will get you surprisingly close.
First thing is to string your bass with flatwounds. Then set your tones and volume to get you a nice beefy mellow tone. Then find a small piece of foam rubber. Cut it down to where it just touches the strings at the bridge...just enough contact to mute, but not kill the string vibration completely. Some looped scotch adhesive tape on the back side will hold it in place while you play. Re-adjust tone and volume accordingly.
Now drag your amp and two mics to the WC. Strip the shower curtains, bath mats, rugs and towels from the room. Place one mic close to the cabinet, then the second mic just outside the room. Each mic has it's own channel.
Volume is the key here, as too much and the mirror and the toilet seat rattles, too little and you loose the effect outside of the room. Towels or a mat under the cabinet helps too.
Using the door as a damper start playing and adjusting the door.
This is a trial and error process, but once you get it nailed with the volume and the door it can be quite convincing.
When you get to the mix of the two tracks you can get it even closer. We did the same trick with a drum machine to make them sound more convincing.
And if you live in an apartment the neighbors will love you...
This is the sort of thing you had time for back before the Internet and cable TV ate up all your spare time...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by andy on Feb 8, 2009 18:38:15 GMT -5
Thanks for that, I might give it try!  Only until someone comes up with a plug-in to emulate that technique, of course. I wouldn't buy it unless it had options for room shape, tub size, and a choice of tiles, linoleum, or soggy carpet on the floor though! My bathroom is pretty manky and I'm not sure I'd trust my amp to it for even a short while, but there must be a space here which would work. |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 8, 2009 19:06:05 GMT -5
My bathroom is pretty manky
Usage: Brit
1. Inferior and worthless
2. Dirty
Derived forms: mankier, mankiest
See also: worthlessThought I'd add that for all the Yanks on the board... Well, I've got one customer...I see my future now...non-manky acoustic WC ultimate .vst bass plugin... Finally, the brass ring... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by newey on Feb 8, 2009 19:11:19 GMT -5
The hard part to nail down will be the emulation of the sympathetic vibrations of the toilet seat. There should be a parameter for '"seat up" as well as "down" ;D
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 8, 2009 19:26:11 GMT -5
There should be a parameter for '"seat up" as well as "down" ;D Good marketing ploy...gender specific .vst plugins...brilliant... |
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Post by andy on Feb 8, 2009 20:54:34 GMT -5
 In my experience, you only tend to get the 'sypathetic vibrations' when you remember to leave it down, if you get my drift. Did you get this from some online dictionary, or has my wife been in touch? Dare I? Does this poor forum deserve that kind of humour? No, it really doesn't. However, you both made me laugh hard enough to lose a piece of biscuit under one of the keys of the laptop! It's been a long (three) weeks...
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 8, 2009 23:18:21 GMT -5
Did you get this from some online dictionary, or has my wife been in touch? On-line dictionary...and that's all I'm saying... No...the other brass ring... Noun: biscuit bis-kit
1. [Brit] Any of various small flat sweet cakes
- cookie [N. Amer], cooky [N. Amer], bicky [Brit], bikky [Brit], bikkie Sorry...it's like learning a foreign language... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by andy on Feb 12, 2009 7:38:24 GMT -5
Well, Fred Durst would have known what I meant! I assume he was thinking of a stale Custard Cream, anyhow. Not for long... the more we lap up US TV and products, the more we absorb US terms and words. The fact that most American spellings actually make more sense than ours helps too. ...Except 'grilled cheese'. My wife makes grilled cheese in a frying pan. The Brits make Cheese on Toast under a grill. I guess that's the exeption to the rule.  |
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