Intonation Makes Me Crazy!

[ozboomer]

I'm trying to set the intonation on my Squier Bullet Strat and I'm going bananas (as usual)... but I thought I'd post here to see if I'm addressing the problems I'm having in the right way...

This is a 2006 or so, Chinese-made model, fitted with 9-42 Fender Super Bullet strings (3250L). I have no clue about the neck, the size of the frets, the neck radius, the bridge saddles, etc, except to say that all these are the original/standard fittings that came on the instrument when I bought it new. The tuning machines are a little "clunky" (most of them turn smoothly and a couple of them seem to almost "grind")... but I'm fairly certain there's not an issue with 'string jam' through the nut, as I used some graphite powder in the nut cuts when I last restrung the guitar... and I think I did the correct (locking) windings around the tuning machine capstans.

For a typical string, I'll start by pulling the string a couple of times to try and get the thing "seated" (or am I crazy doing that?). I'll then use my old BOSS TU-12 tuner to tune UP to the correct pitch. I'll play the 12th fret harmonic and it'll be on-pitch.

If I then play a fretted note at the 12th fret, let's say the meter reads SHARP. I'll then ease the tension on the string, get my screwdriver into the saddle screw and turn it a half-turn (180 deg) clockwise, thereby moving the saddle away from the nut, making the string length longer. I'll then re-tune to pitch on the open string, check the 12th fret harmonic.. and it will be Ok. I'll play the fretted note at the 12th fret... and let's say I've gone through this loop the 5 times I normally do and the fretted note is also on-pitch. Whee.

BUT...

...if I then play a fretted note, say, on the 3rd fret, it will be sharp by about 10 cents. As I play fretted notes back to the nut or through to the 12th fret, the 'mis-tuning' will reduce until the note is back on-pitch at each of the extreme points.

The other thing is that I'll go through this exercise today and get the intonation as close as I can... and when I come back tomorrow, it will all be out and I have to do it all again... Although, I wouldn't mind putting THAT down to a change in the weather -- this guitar generally holds any tuning adjustments pretty well once they're made.

So, what d'you think is going on here? Is this sort of behaviour going to come from a neck that's not set right? (It looks straight to me, as I eyeball it from nut to bridge) If I don't have the right relief or string height, will it cause this sort of craziness? What about if I have a mis-matched string set, for example, if I've broken a couple of strings ( too much note bending practice ) and have replaced them with strings from a different manufacturer, will that affect the intonation?

*Grr...*

Note that I try to play the notes with the same sort of attack/force and I try and fret the note as lightly as possible so that I get a clear note without bending/stretching the string over the fret so that it goes sharper than it should. I have the tone control set to as 'bright' as possible, middle pickup only, so theoretically, I shouldn't have any problems with wavering pitches, etc.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on the technique, the guitar, or any other aspects that might be causing this weird behaviour.


John

[D2o]

For a typical string, I'll start by pulling the string a couple of times to try and get the thing "seated" (or am I crazy doing that?).

You are not crazy ... well, not for doing that at least. ;D I do it every time I tune the guitar.

I'll then use my old BOSS TU-12 tuner to tune UP to the correct pitch. I'll play the 12th fret harmonic and it'll be on-pitch.

Beauty! and I've heard that's a great tuner, by the way.

If I then play a fretted note at the 12th fret, let's say the meter reads SHARP. I'll then ease the tension on the string, get my screwdriver into the saddle screw and turn it a half-turn (180 deg) clockwise, thereby moving the saddle away from the nut, making the string length longer. I'll then re-tune to pitch on the open string, check the 12th fret harmonic.. and it will be Ok. I'll play the fretted note at the 12th fret... and let's say I've gone through this loop the 5 times I normally do and the fretted note is also on-pitch. Whee.

BUT...

...if I then play a fretted note, say, on the 3rd fret, it will be sharp by about 10 cents. As I play fretted notes back to the nut or through to the 12th fret, the 'mis-tuning' will reduce until the note is back on-pitch at each of the extreme points.

Is this also happening on the first fret - possibly even more than the third fret?

If so, it sounds like the slots in the nut are not filed down enough and could use a bit of a filing down - with a set of nut files, or a set of torch files.

Wait for the consensus of others before you do any filing, but if you end up with a set of files in your hands:

PUT MASKING TAPE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE NUT BEFORE MESSING ABOUT WITH THIS KIND OF THING - you can mess up the finish in the blink of an eye with these flimsy little files.

If I don't have the right relief or string height, will it cause this sort of craziness?

I'm not sure, but I think that would cause the problem more in the middle/upper frets?

What about if I have a mis-matched string set, for example, if I've broken a couple of strings ( too much note bending practice ) and have replaced them with strings from a different manufacturer, will that affect the intonation?

That is possible - you should probably try a new full set, but ... it still sounds like the nut to me.

*Grr...*

*Grr...*

Now hang tight and see what others have to say.

Cheers,

D2o

[cynical1]

There are three main factors that effect your intonation. The truss rod (amount or lack of relief), bridge height and the nut. Bad frets may be a contributor, but more then likely you'd have other issues before you got that far down the list.

D2o points out the most likely culprit and pretty much covers everything very well. When determining the depth of the cut on a nut, the general "Rule of Thumb" on string height at the 1st fret is a full string diameter on unwound, and half the string diameter on wound strings with the strings unfretted.

Another popular method is to fret each string at the 3rd fret and check the gap at the 1st fret. Normally, it should be at .005" (.127mm) at the first fret when the string is fretted at the 3rd fret.

Unless you were a hawk in a previous life you'll need a set of feeler gauges for this. They are cheap and can be found at any auto parts store if you don't already have a set. These are an imperative.

If you already have this much clearance under your strings at the first fret, then the other two move up on the list of usual suspects.

As far as string height goes...this is really a personal thing, and there are many opinions and Gospels to go around on this one. From my experience, on a guitar, at the 12th fret is normally set between .046"-.064".(1.168mm-1.625mm) The style in which you play and fretboard radius are factors here too. For example, if you bend a lot of notes you'll want to set the B and G strings a bit higher...and if you get a lot of fret buzz...raise the strings until it goes away... Keep in mind, that if you have to raise the strings above the standards detailed above to eliminate the buzzing it may indicate other issues to be addressed.

If you want your action around .032" (.812mm) at the 12th fret you'll need some first class fret leveling and polishing done first or it will buzz like crazy.

We'll hold on the truss rod adjustment for now. That's a whole posting in itself...I think we have enough postings of cracked fretboards here for now...

The placing the tape around the nut before you cut idea was some very good advice from D2o. Another place you might want to put the tape is around your bridge where you'll be turning the intonation screws. 10 seconds of putting the tape down saves hours of buffing or repairing the finish if the screwdriver slips...been there, done that...

Setting up a guitar can be fun, and it can be a pain in the @ss. Normally, before I start playing with the intonation I make sure the nut, truss rod, neck angle or pitch and string height are where I want it. Changing anything in this arrangement effects intonation. Intonation is the last thing I do when all other factors are set correctly.

If you don't feel comfortable evaluating the relief on your neck then by all means, find a good guitar tech and have him check it out for you. If it checks out fine the money you spent on the checkup is far less then a new neck.

I know this one suggestion goes against all Guitar Nuts theory of DIY, but unless you've done a lot these set-ups, having it done by a good, or very good, guitar tech initially will make you life much easier. It will give you a good reference point to keep your guitar set-up properly in the future.

I'm not sure if the metric conversions here are standard metric feeler gauge sizes. I just pulled them off an on-line conversion site.

Hope this helps. If I've just muddied the water here please feel free to ask WTF I meant before you start turning wrenches or firing up the cutting torch...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[lpf3]

Oz-

.if I then play a fretted note, say, on the 3rd fret, it will be sharp by about 10 cents. As I play fretted notes back to the nut or through to the 12th fret, the 'mis-tuning' will reduce until the note is back on-pitch at each of the extreme points.

This happens because stringed instrument scale lengths are compensated to make up for variables like string gauge , action height , etc. Even the most precise measurements of the distances between frets are " compromises " to get the most accuracy along the whole fretboard . So - your'e not gonna be perfect , just " Close Enough For Rock & Roll " . ;D
Sounds like you're on the right track - so long as you get your open , 12th fret , & harmonics in tune you'll be ok .

Keep in mind , if you're like me anyway , that your setup is really just a work in progress & you'll probably be fine tuning this or that as you go .


-lpf3

[ashcatlt]

You are definitely not alone in your frustration on this topic. I really want to DIY this, partly because an extremely tight (as in non-existant) budget, partly because I don't actually know for sure which techs in the area would do a better job than I can, and partly just to say I did it.

I've got more questions than answers for this topic. For instance, when I fret a note on the 3rd fret of any string on my Strat, there is NO clearance at the 1st fret. I can't imagine that the nut is cut too deep. Seems like if it was any shallower, I'd be knocking the things (especially the low E) out of the grooves on regular basis.

I suppose I should spring for feeler gauge to measure this. Anybody ever try one of those all-in-one kinda gauges that are used for gapping spark plugs? You know, the round thing that you can put on your key chain. Would that be any use here?

Anyway, as I understand it, lpf3 is right. Any attempt at intonation on most electric guitars is going to be a compromise. If it's perfect at the 12th fret, it has to be off elsewhere. There are guitars which have "compensated nuts" and strange looking radially slanted fret layouts which are supposed to be much better. I don't have one of those though, do you?

I've seen around the net a recommendation to check the intonation at something like the 17th and again at the 4th (or so) and kind of try to split the difference. For myself, I've looked at this thing realistically and realized that I really don't play above the 12th fret all that much. I do play around the 7th a lot, since that's where the fifths and octaves are found. I'd like for that interval to come out as clear and clean as possible. So I've been shooting to have the 7th fret in tune when the open string (and 12th fret harmonic) is. This tends to reduce the error at the lower frets, as well, bring my open position chords closer to correct.

I don't know if any of this helps, but we don't discuss this most important, seemingly basic, maddeningly frustrating topic very much around here.

[cynical1]

You're right, it's always a compromise. You can get close, but it ain't like a piano.

Feeler gauges are pretty cheap. Sears usually has a set for around $3.00-$5.00. Get a set that looks like this:



The little round ones for your keychain are OK for sparkplugs, but pretty much useless for this application.

Keep in mind that .005" is 1/200th of an inch...that's not exactly an "eyeball" type of measurement... I prefer the string gauge diameter method, but one is as good as another.

And you make a good point. A rhythm player probably isn't as concerned about the intonation above the 12th fret as a lead player.

The open, 7th or 9th, 12th and 15th fret average works pretty well. Again, it depends on your type and style of playing. If it gets too frustrating just start playing bottleneck...all you need to do there raise the hell out of the bridge, slap in an extension nut and get it close at the 12th...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[gitpiddler]

Oz- I've found that 10's are more consistent to intonate because the 09's are easier to push sideways when fretting.
+1 on the nut heights and neck relief as the likely cause.
Raising saddle heights at the bridge will equalize the higher frets to the lower ones in pitch too.
Good luck bro.

[ozboomer]

Heck! There's a lot of good stuff here... Fanx! everyone.

D2o: I seem to be falling for the "too much finger pressure" thing when I try things at the 1st fret (and forcing the pitch higher)... but if I concentrate hard, even if I just get the note to ring cleanly, the pitch is still a little higher at the 1st fret than at the 3rd fret.

Also, of interest: I think I remember something from the dim, dark past that said it was easier to play the odd-numbered harmonics... So, I can play the 12th fret harmonic Ok (and it is in-tune)... but I also can play the harmonic at the 7th fret and it is even a tiny-bit sharp -- so that's an off-pitch note that sounds without any finger pressure... so maybe that says something about the nut being ever so slightly out of adjustment... and is probably something I may not worry about (on this cheapo guitar)...

With a nod to lpf3, I think it might be my "picky ears" and I have to learn to "make do" sometimes... but Dang! it is annoying even when playing simple triads on the 1st/2nd/3rd string set -- Heck! I notice the problem there, particularly when playing minor chords within the 1st 5 frets...

cynical1: Many thanks for the detailed notes -- I admit I'm not too clever with doing these set-up things... but I do have the feeler gauges, although I've never heard of this 3rd fret/1st fret measurement... Then, I've never studied-up on nut adjustments (and frankly, I'm more scared of doing my own changes to the nut than I am to adjusting the truss rod... One slip of a file on those grooves and I'm cactus... but at least I can take things very slowly on the neck relief... although, I haven't done THAT much, either!)

ashcatlt & cynical1: You talk about compromises. I get into significant arguments with people sometimes about whether or not what I'm seeing on the meter and hearing is a function of equal temperament. For example, I can go through a "manual" tuning, just using my ears... and I will get a "perfect tuning" to play, say, an Am open chord around the 1st/2nd fret. The A string (5th) sounds perfectly fine. ...but if I then play an open C chord the C (on the 5th string) sounds like garbage. Similarly, when playing an open E chord compared to an open G chord (referring to the low E/6th string).

After all this, I end up setting the intonation by the open string, the fretted note at the 12th fret... for each string... and then I'll work my way 'round the Circle of 5ths using barre chords, slightly tweaking here and there, trying to do that compromising on the pitch of each string at each location... and the guitar ends-up sounding Ok in the mix of things... but I still get irked by the sound of some particular intervals not sounding right.

gitpiddler: I've also considered whether I should try using 10s, given the issue of finger pressure making the pitch go sharp when I fret a note... but I'm a bit gutless about making such a change and never being able to get the instrument(s) playable again(!)

Anyhoo, again, many thanks for the info, everyone... I have a few things still to try, it seems...

[lpf3]

One thing about neck relief is that at it's most extreme place in the " bow " the strings are farther from the fretboard then at other places on the 'board - causing you to push the string farther when fretting at those positions . I know it's miniscule but it does make a difference . If you don't play particularly hard , or don't need an insanely low action you can get away with less relief than most specs recommend . I like my necks as dead straight as I can get them - experiment till you find your own preference .

Another thing about intonation & tuning I find is that even when the tuner shows " perfect " it doesn't sound right to me . I don't know if this is correct to do but after I tune up with a tuner I almost always fine tune to my ear anyway -

About your string slots - did you angle them back toward the headstock a little ? This will remove excess material from behind the string & help insure that the string contacts the nut at the most precise place .

-lpf3

EDIT :

Oz - looks like we were typing similar thoughts at the same time ..... didn't mean to repeat ya on purpose

[cynical1]

Mar 24, 2009 6:44:08 GMT -5 ozboomer said:

...(and frankly, I'm more scared of doing my own changes to the nut than I am to adjusting the truss rod... One slip of a file on those grooves and I'm cactus... but at least I can take things very slowly on the neck relief... although, I haven't done THAT much, either!)

Keep in mind that a Tusq nut runs about $11.00 US...you can buy about a dozen nuts to every neck. As you said, go slowly on the truss rod adjustments. Make 1/4 turns, play it for a few days, then re-evaluate. The wood in the neck takes some time to settle in to the new adjustment. That's why all good techs will tell you to bring the guitar back after they make an adjustment. The "once you hear the crack, you're there" philosophy is only music to the guitar shop owner's ears...

In fact, that's a good question to ask when looking for a good tech. If you ask them about bringing the guitar back in a few days after making the truss rod adjustment, and they reply "don't bother", put the guitar back in the case, thank them for there time, and keep looking for a tech.

Not being able to see your neck, there may be no adjustment needed. One of the safer tricks to use when trying to lower your action without making truss rod adjustments is to use a neck pocket shim to pitch the neck down at the nut end. Some very thin veneer strips strategically placed in the neck pocket under the heel of the neck can allow you to lower your action without changing the relief.

Even if you have a micro tilt on your guitar, the shims are still a good idea, as they help maintain the wood to wood contact area between the neck and the body. The micro tilt just makes it easier to determine your pitch angle.

And aside from the open strings, always trust the harmonic over the fretted note when setting intonation.

Have fun.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[ozboomer]

Mar 23, 2009 11:20:47 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

Another popular method is to fret each string at the 3rd fret and check the gap at the 1st fret. Normally, it should be at .005" (.127mm) at the first fret when the string is fretted at the 3rd fret.

I just had a look at this... and as an example, I found the gap on the low E (6th) string was 0.008" or so... Thus, it would seem the gap there is too great... So, when I play, I could well be doing an "over-stretch" of the string over the adjacent fret, forcing the note sharp...

Still, I've not done (attempted!) a complete set-up on this guitar... so p'raps I'll make-do for a bit until I've finished doing my electronics experiments on this guitar.

Actually, I remember finding something in recent searches for solutions to these intonation problems:

"It is a fact that some players have more sensitivity to the compromises in the equal tempered scale. When that is the case I normally must do my best to explain the compromises of a fretted instrument and offer my condolences. Having every single note in perfect tune is beyond the abilities of many equal tempered instruments...."

Again, maybe I could do well to not worry about this so much.. hmm...

[mattmayfield]

There's more to this issue than most people think. The fact is, when intonating a guitar, you're trying to get the best compromise among the frets to conform to the equal tempered scale.

The "secret" here is that the equal tempered scale is itself a compromise with perfect tuning. That means that even that just-tuned piano, or an electronic synthesizer, does NOT really play chords in tune.

The best place that explains this that I've found is this company that makes computer software:

www.hermode.com/html/tuning-history_en.html

This is like the Matrix red pill/blue pill scenario. There is a whole hidden, dark secret behind our modern tuning system - tuners and synthesizers are not really in tune because they only have ONE pitch per note, when in reality tones need to be flexible to respond to other simultaneous tones.

[gs790]

I may have missed it, but did you has how far sharp it goes?

I'm just curious, because I've tricked myself into thinking that the guitar is out of tune with any combination of a miscalibrated tuners to a premium tuner that showed more minute pitch increments than I'm used to seeing. The oscilloscope from the physics lab was a hoot but simultaneously depressing too. When I walked away from the guitar for 5 minutes and came back (to establish a kind of psychological baseline again) the guitar sounded just fine. It is possible for tuners to trick you into hearing things that just aren't there. I'll say that, only because it has happened to me.

Personally, I wouldn't focus so much on the fact that string X is Z hertz sharp when pressed on fret P. I would focus on the overall musical qualities of the instrument. How does it play, how does it sound as a whole, does it mesh with the other instruments it will accompany?

By no means an expert, just a thought a two.