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Post by morbe on Jun 7, 2009 3:25:01 GMT -5
Every one here has been more than help full getting me all sped up on how to take the next step in getting rid of the practice equipment and moving up to the next step. I didn't end up getting that used Crate BXH 220 and the Rebuilt Head with Pyle Speakers.
Yesterday was my birthday and I was suprised to say that I got a G-K Half Stack. It's not the greatest but after practice tonight It was a definite improvement to the fact that I no longer have to rely on connecting into a PA I am at this point Free!!
I have the G-K Backline 600 that sits on the G-K 410 Gold line cab.
it'll Do!
So again thank Everyone!!!
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 7, 2009 10:17:46 GMT -5
Well, as long as you used the G-K Half Stack to play "Highway Star" until your ears bled, then all is right with the world...
As long as you have enough amp and cab to play at practice or the size venues you normally play, and they allow you to present "your" sound in balance with everyone else, then make no apologies.
One thing I would mention is that the G-K Half Stack has built-in overheating protection. You may want to install an additional cooling fan(s) if you plan to play "hot and heavy" to prevent it from powering off on you while playing.
And I know a few guys who played through a G-K Backline 600 with a 4x10. I never heard a bad word about it, especially if you like to slap.
Glad we could help.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by morbe on Jun 7, 2009 13:33:40 GMT -5
Oh yeah I was all over the place with this Amp. Im looking forward to Tomorrows Practice. Where I get to play with in against a guitar amp with more to give!
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Post by morbe on Jun 8, 2009 9:13:06 GMT -5
One thing I would mention is that the G-K Half Stack has built-in overheating protection. You may want to install an additional cooling fan(s) if you plan to play "hot and heavy" to prevent it from powering off on you while playing. Do they Sell these Cooling fans specific for Amp Heads ro do you have to make one out of some other kind of fan?? |
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 8, 2009 15:46:02 GMT -5
There's a few ways to go with the cooling fans. If you have a convenience 120v receptacle in the back of your amp, then just go with a 120v fan. (like the old server chassis or UPS cooling fans) Wire a 3-prong plug to it, plug it into the convenience receptacle on the back of the amp and let it run until you unplug it.
You could also pick up a 90mm or 120mm DC computer case cooling fan and run it off a wallwart or DC power adapter...making sure, of course, you've matched the fan specs to the adapter.
If you are electronically savvy you could pull the power out of the amp so the fan comes on when the amp goes on...and if you are really savvy you could rig a thermostat to the fan circuit to where it only comes on at a certain temperature.
Make sure whatever fan you use pulls or draws the hot air out of the amp. This will enhance whatever engineered cooling airflow has been designed into the case.
Last time I did this I had a friend wire it into an old Peavey 260 amp. As I recall he used a 120V server fan, a 115o attic fan thermostat and pulled the power off the back of the convenience 120V receptacle and tossed in a toggle switch. I fixed his computer and he fixed my amp...barter is...
If you post a schematic of the amp I'm sure there are folks here that can direct you and keep you from becoming a filament.
Not a lot of help, but you get the idea.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by morbe on Jun 15, 2009 8:42:26 GMT -5
I think that I should be good unless the fan ever fails. I played this Amp outside in the evenings in Texas where the temp can still be in the 90's and it did alright. I always turn the amp off when in not in use. You think that using a Bass half stack I should mount the Amp elswhere instead of on the Speaker Cab? Just a thought but wont constant vibration from the Cab to the Amp vibrate things loose in the Amp? Sorry but this is my first stack of any kind.
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 15, 2009 10:38:20 GMT -5
...You think that using a Bass half stack I should mount the Amp elswhere instead of on the Speaker Cab? Just a thought but wont constant vibration from the Cab to the Amp vibrate things loose in the Amp? Theoretically, you could put the amp head wherever you wanted to. I've always gone under the assumption that you want as short a cable as possible running to your cabinets. In 30 years I've never had anything shake loose. I've never owned a brand new bass head in my life, I've always set them on top of whatever cabinet I was using and I've never gotten less then 10 hard years out of my amps. I had an old Peavey 260 bass head that sat on top of a 2x15 and a 2x10 w/horn...it never had a problem with anything shaking loose...well, there was that cold air return grate that fell out of the wall that one time...but the amp was fine... If it concerns you there are vibration dampers you can pick up to put under the amps feet.  I had a friend who swore by the closed cell foam from pipe insulation under the amp feet. I've seen people use little squares of cork under the amp feet as well. Whatever makes you happy... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by D2o on Jun 15, 2009 10:46:15 GMT -5
..... I had an old Peavey 260 bass head that sat on top of a 2x15 and a 2x10 w/horn...it never had a problem with anything shaking loose... well, there was that cold air return grate that fell out of the wall that one time...but the amp was fine... LOL ;D |
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Post by lunaalta on Jun 15, 2009 16:38:17 GMT -5
www.sorbothane.com/Sorbothane is pretty good for this, there are companies making small isolating feet for the hi-fi industry out of it. Hope this helps....
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Post by morbe on Aug 6, 2009 9:41:53 GMT -5
The G-K Bass Amp is AweSome By the Way!!! I only have the one Cab, it pushes about 180watt with one 8ohm cab more than enough power for what I do. I'm so happy, I can now jam with snobby guitarists with solidstate Marshall half Stacks, because when there volume keeps rising though out the night, I have a Boost Knob I like to call the "A$$hole"Knob. Becuase when the Marshall amp get louder. My bass gives out a deep loud Punch that can actually drowns out the guitar amps!! So awesome to put an arrogant guitar player back in his place. LOL!
I just have one question and I'm sure I know the answer. I was planning on getting some effect pedals mainy a chorus pedal for my set up. It does have an "effects loop in" and an "effects loop out" My question is. I use Instrument cables for the connections here right? Not Speaker cable. Is that correct? I'm sure its instrument cable but just want to make sure.
Thanks guys. I would have ended up with another crappy amp if it wasnt for the advice I got here.
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Post by newey on Aug 6, 2009 10:19:09 GMT -5
Instrument cables it is.
I'm sure a bunch of guitarists will now chime in about how "they can't get their G-D bass player to turn his G-D levels down . . ."
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Post by morbe on Aug 14, 2009 11:40:34 GMT -5
DAMN! This Hobby of mine. Now I'm looking for a different sound all together. I play the guitar and have never purchased in my life a tube amp. always solid state. Now Im looking into getting a Tube amp. There is a guy that will sell me a vintage "Alamo Fury 115" I've been told at the price he will sell it is a steal. But It's only a RMS 20watts?!!! IS this just a practice Amp, I like to get Amps that I can play with out mic-ing, amps that can be independent for small to medium venues.
So here are the questions.
Is a tube amp twice as loud as a solid state amp? I've heard that a 50 watt tube amp is as loud as a 100 watt solid state amp and tube amps are made to be played with all volume and gain as loud as they can go.
So this amp says its 80 watt but from what Im being told its actually 20 watts but 20 watts of A class output? What the heck is A class OUTPUT???
You see this is why I stick with Solid State amps. I just want the perefect tone at the right cost.
By the way the guys says in working order this tube amp he will sell it to me for $150 dont knwo a whole lot about this amp though.
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Post by D2o on Aug 14, 2009 12:04:04 GMT -5
DAMN! This Hobby of mine. Now I'm looking for a different sound all together. I play the guitar and have never purchased in my life a tube amp. always solid state. Now Im looking into getting a Tube amp. There is a guy that will sell me a vintage "Alamo Fury 115" I've been told at the price he will sell it is a steal. But It's only a RMS 20watts?!!! IS this just a practice Amp, I like to get Amps that I can play with out mic-ing, amps that can be independent for small to medium venues. So here are the questions. Is a tube amp twice as loud as a solid state amp? I've heard that a 50 watt tube amp is as loud as a 100 watt solid state amp and tube amps are made to be played with all volume and gain as loud as they can go. So this amp says its 80 watt but from what Im being told its actually 20 watts but 20 watts of A class output? What the heck is A class OUTPUT??? You see this is why I stick with Solid State amps. I just want the perefect tone at the right cost. By the way the guys says in working order this tube amp he will sell it to me for $150 dont knwo a whole lot about this amp though. Hey Morbe We coincidentally just had a discussion about an old Alamo amp. Basically, a tube amp does pack a lot more punch per watt than a solid state does. Beyond that, I can't tell what the ratio is, but I can tell you that I have a 30 watt tube amp (coincidentally with a 15" speaker) that absolutely DEMOLISHES my 50 watt solid state amp with a 12" speaker. Actually, I'm selling that 30 watt tube amp because it is just too much amp for me. I would rather have a lower wattage tube amp, and I'll likely just stick with my SS, and it's totally adjustable artificial tube-like effects (of course I just play at home). The 20 watt may be enough for small to medium venues - if it's in good shape you will be surprised how loud they are. The nice thing about lower wattage tube amps is you can actually use them as intended - cranking up the volume so it begins to break up - without having law enforcement show up at your house. That's all I can tell you ... I know very little about tube amps. Cheers, D2o |
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 14, 2009 17:43:35 GMT -5
Watts is Watts, dude. Don't matter what makes those watts. A 20W tube amp should make about the same amount of SPL as a 20W solid state amp through the same speaker. This, of course, assumes both amps use the same method to determine their max output power.
The difference may be that a tube amp will tend to sound "better" when you attempt to exceed it's rated output wattage than a solid state would.
To answer the question re: Class A: It basically means that there is one amplifier stage for the entire signal swing. This is in contrast with a Class AB amp, which basically has two seperate power amps. One (call it A) amplifies the positive swing of the wave, while the other (call it B) amplifies the negative swing. Of course, 0 is relative...
As you might expect, there is room for some slop in the Class AB amp. That is, if the 0 point is not exactly the same (and how could it be with analog components in an environment with varying temps, humidities, etc.?), there may be a slight overlap and/or gap between the outputs of A and B. This leads to what is called "crossover distortion", which is a bit different from the type of overdrive we get from banging an output stage against its power supply rails.
Until fairly recently most tube amps on the market were Class AB. It's typical for Fender, Marshall, and their clones. The most famous of Class A tube amps is the Vox AC30, but there are others.
Back to wattage. Keep in mind that, all thing being equal, it takes 10x the power output from the amp to achieve a 2x increase in percieved volume (SPL). The overall SPL output depends on the efficiency of the speaker more than anything else, but I think a 20W amp will easily put out more noise than you really should have on any stage that's shared with live microphones. It will be a lot easier to get your "tone" without upsetting soundguys, audiences, and/or neighbors with something in this range.
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Post by D2o on Aug 14, 2009 18:23:54 GMT -5
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Post by sydsbluesky on Aug 14, 2009 22:27:32 GMT -5
So the term "more usable watts" might apply?
I know that my 5 watt Blackstar tube head puts out some serious volume with a 1x12.
Just a little more "meat and potatos," in case the physics hors d'oeuvres left a little to be desired:
My 1x12 100 watt Marshall AVT2000 amp will have trouble keeping up with a loud jam session, while the same head with a 4x12 on the bottom only has to go up to about 40% to be perceived as being the same volume.
I'm yet to try the 5 watter with the 4x12.
This seems like as good a time as any to profess my dislike for those mini Marshall straight cabs. Terrible projection! Which is why I use a Crate 320 watt cab loaded with celestions. Cringe at crate or not, this cab is a fine piece.
Our bassist uses a 4x12 and a 15+horn with a peavy head rated 450. Cabs rated at some ungodly high number.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 15, 2009 0:41:39 GMT -5
Jesse,
No, the proper term would be "more usable volume", not more usable watts. Meaning that the volume level is loud to the point where it is objectionable with an SS amp (undesirable distortion), but enjoyable with the tube amp, thanks to all the above mentioned factors. Of course, that translates to one being able to crank the tube amp a bit more, before it starts producing objectionable distortion.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by sydsbluesky on Aug 15, 2009 11:27:37 GMT -5
Ahh, okay.
I'll revise it thusly, with a trick I've seen on here before -
"Wattage is..."
I just went back and read the thread from the beginning, and I was wondering if there is any database of sorts showing speaker effeciency ratings on the web.
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 15, 2009 13:40:25 GMT -5
Well, if we're talking about RMS wattage, you might actually get more usable wattage before you get into undesireable distortion.
I'm pretty sure the "Max RMS Power" marked on these things is actually a mathematical manipulation of the Max Peak Power, which is easily calculable. First, set an acceptable "max" THD (distorion) threshold, then measure the maximum peak power the amplifier will put out before THD exceeds your chosen value. This will usually be a value where the peak output Voltage is very close to the power supply's "rail" voltage, but it's best to evaluate using a scope or other test equipment to find the actual number. Once you've got that number, you can figure the current by using Ohm's law, then multiply them to get your max (peak) power. Now multiply that by the half the square root of something (is it 2, or pi?...too tired to look) to get the "max RMS power".
I don't think that's accurate, though. I think that the actual maximum RMS power of most amplifiers is somewhere very close to it's max Peak power. That is, I wouldn't expect to get any more distortion from a square wave (how could you tell?) than a sine wave with the same peak level. Guitar amps are notoriously (and purposely) poor amplifiers, though, so I might be disappointed on this one.
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Post by D2o on Aug 15, 2009 16:37:34 GMT -5
I think this is getting too complicated, so I am copying an amended version of my previous post:
The 20 watt amp you are considering, with it's 15" speaker, may be enough for small to medium venues - if it's in good shape you may be pleaseantly surprised at the volume it can achieve while still sounding good to the human ear.
The nice thing about a lower wattage tube amp is you can actually use them as intended - cranking up the volume so it begins to break up in a pleasant way - without having law enforcement show up at your house.
D2o
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Post by sumgai on Aug 15, 2009 22:41:32 GMT -5
ash, By definition (commonly accepted by the audio industry, and espoused by Eletrical Engineer Doctrine), max or peak power is considered instantaneous, whereas RMS is, again by definition, measured over a period of time. Comparatively, the peak of a sine wave can be observed only once, for the briefest of moments, during the life of a wave's complete cycle. RMS is a derivative measurement over the entire life of the wave's cycle. The two are very loosely related, mathematically speaking, but both can be measured with instruments without resorting to having one in order to determine the other. BTW, we don't need to know the amperage available at the output, although we certainly can measure it, if we so wish. All we need is a little law handed down to us by Mr. Ohm, and the voltage measurement. Volts squared divided by ohms gives us watts. If we have a steady state input, such a frequency generator, then we need a scope only to see that we aren't going beyond the accepted distortion figure at the output stage, and we're all set.  (That is, a scope is a poor-man's substitute for a real-life, in-the-lab quality, distortion meter..... which is way too expensive for the average bear.  ) HTH sumgai |
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Post by D2o on Aug 17, 2009 9:37:38 GMT -5
I guess we forgot all about the price. It was $150, right? Harmony Central has some reviews, some of which include prices that range anywhere from "gift" to $265. One is $150, which seems reasonable to me. One of the reviewers says his sounds better than his Peavey Classic 50 head. If that is true, that is high praise, IMHO. I'm not saying you should buy it, but I'm not saying you should not buy it. I hope this cryptic message was of some value. Cheers, D2o |
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Post by morbe on Aug 17, 2009 9:40:55 GMT -5
Sorry to get off subject a bit. But Do any of you know how to fix amps? I have an amp that just crapped out on me. I wasnt rouch with it I take care of all my equipment! but this darn amp
"yorkville/Traynor bloc 100k" stopped working on me!!!
It powers on but I get no sound, I though maybe the speaker was blown but I tried another speaker and still no sound. Really all I know at this point is that it gets power it just pushes no sound to the speaker at all?!!
Any how About the tube amp. My main amp is a fender FM dsp Amp modeler. Its does the trick but but I dont like the modeler idea, I just was in the market for a new amp and wanted a clean/ and over drive channel. You know the basics. I was tols by my bro to stop messing around with solid states and break donw and get a real amp (Tube). I have tried some out, I agree they do sound a bit better. It's just strange to me that an older technology is more expensive? I mean its about 300$-600$ for a 100 watt solid state amp and 600$-over 1000$ for a 100 watt tube amp.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 17, 2009 11:07:41 GMT -5
morbe, Tubes themselves, along with transformers in general, both cost a boatload of money to make. Selling them isn't hard, to the small market (compared to the population of the whole planet), but the numbers game says that the Return On Investment won't work, if they sell those items at what you and I would call a reasonable retail price. Hence, the price is set to make the manufacturers some profit, and if you're not careful, you'll be lining their pockets with lots of profit, over and above what others might charge for the same quality product. Caveat emptor!IMO, in today's market, $600 should get you a decent amp, a full grand will get you more of the same. Much more than that, and you're paying for a name, not better tone or whatever else you might be looking for. (And that also goes for my favorite line of amps, Fender - they're no exception to the "brand name fever".) My best suggestion? Get a used amp that sounds right to you, then dicker the price down to where you can stand it. And have a good amp repairman on tap, 'cause nothing lasts forever.  HTH sumgai |
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Post by chuck on Jun 14, 2010 1:52:06 GMT -5
200 watts is not twice as loud as 100 watts .
it would take a 1000 watt amp to be twice as loud .
i have always gone with the 3 to 1 ratio for bass and guitar amps.
usually you want to crank the heck out of your tube guitar amps , while you dont drive bass amps that hard.
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(That is, a scope is a poor-man's substitute for a real-life, in-the-lab quality, distortion meter..... which is way too expensive for the average bear. 
)
