DIY Paint Advice

[rootman1987]

Alright, I've searched the forums, and though I've found a TON of useful information I never intended on finding, but will be using soon, I have yet to find what I was looking for. I had some questions about painting. I'm a DIY'er when it comes to woodworking, so the processes I'm more than familiar with. As far as variety of paint though- I've stained and handpainted tables and cabinets and the such, so for the sake of knowledge assume I know about staining and latex.

I bought a Limited Edition Epi Wilshire, but Alpine white is not my color. All I intend on doing is giving it nice peppermint swirl- an orange and white spiral, nothing more than that, with a few symbols hand painted, like pinstriping on a car.

I need to know what type of paint I need to be using here to achieve a super high gloss, I've heard a clear polyurethane does the job and gives it a clearcoat look. I want the pinstriping under the outer finish, if that makes a difference. I plan on handpainting, just because it's what I'm used to, and I like it more than spraying.

Any tips would be appreciated, any links to previous posts I've missed, and your personal experience. What type of paints can I use and should I use to acheive a gleam capable of blinding? Should I sand to make everything just rough enough to refinish, or just paint the stripes over the old finish? Thanks guys!

[newey]

Rootman-

Hello and Welcome!

I don't really have a knowledgeable answer for your question. I've never tried anything approaching a "peppermint swirl".

an orange and white spiral, nothing more than that, with a few symbols hand painted, like pinstriping on a car.

That sounds like quite a bit more than "nothing". But it sounds cool, so we'd like some pictures in our gallery if you pull this off. Although orange and white doesn't sound like any peppermint I've ever seen- more like a Dreamsicle.

And I like the Wilshire a lot, I've had my eye on that guitar since Epi issued it. What are your impressions of playing it?

My only tip or observation would be that I think you're going to need to sand it down in order to get good adhesion for your graphics. And I doubt a "spot-sanding" just under where you're planning the graphics is feasible- you'll sand over or under where you need to be at some point. And that means that the clearcoat you spray over the top of all of it will look different where it's covering the original gloss finish vs. the sanded bits.

If you are going to try to spray clear over the original finish, you'll want to check for compatibility in an unobtrusive spot. You can minimize the chances of a mismatch by checking the specs of the guitar (or emailing Epi and asking) to see what the original finish is. It's probably some type of poly, so you'd want to stick with that, but I'd still test it first.

But I think it's only going to look decent if you sand off all the original gloss and refinish the whole thing. Just my dos centavos, anyway.

And, of course, if you really don't like Alpine White, once you've sanded it down, well, the world is your oyster and the palette is limited only by your imagination.

I mostly use poly- acrylic finishes, and I try to buy my clearcoat in the same brand/type as my colors to minimize any potential incompatibility. You'll want to spray about 3-4 coats of clear over your design, then sand very lightly with 400 grit oxide paper, and continue coating, sanding every couple of coats thereafter- but go very easy on it, it's easier to oversand than undersand it.

To get a really shiny finish at the end, you will need a good buffer and some polishing compound. I use the automotive stuff- it's grittier than a wax but not as abrasive as a rubbing compound.

I've used a buffer pad on a variable speed drill to do this, but I don't recommend that- it's too fast and too easy to screw up your finish. If you don't have a good buffer, try to borrow a buddy's or perhaps you can rent one.

Another option is to do it by hand with 3M polishing paper. I haven't tried this stuff, but it gets raves from those who have used it. It runs like about 3000 grit, about the same as a polishing compound or jeweler's rouge. This stuff isn't all that easy to fine, the big-box home improvement stores won't carry them, whether you patronize the blue one or the orange one. The web is your friend on this one.

[rootman1987]

Thanks for the advice. By spiral I mean I just intend to put orange stripes on the guitar, so it'll look like a Dreamsicle peppermint candy, but more psychedelic- with a little mint leaf guy above the neck pickup.

It's a very playable guitar, feels and plays like an SG, but it IS CHEAP. It has a great sound compared to guitars in the price range, very deep and clear with great sustain, but the paint is poor, very blotchy and it has quite a few runs, and the pearl inlays have a ton of glue (or whatever is used to secure them on the neck). I've got a bad fret buzz on the 6th string, but I'm going to worry about that after I paint, and I'm just going to have it done professionally, and why I won't have it professionally painted, I don't know, ha ha.

I've heard some people say they've just used Krylon acrylic spraypaint with good results. I'm going to go with acrylic so that way I can get a few tubes of paint to hand paint. What should I use for the clear coat? I'm not sure about the acrylic Krylon sealer- I've heard it's too soft, but I figured it would be the safest, as Ive heard polishing properly even with a softer clear coat can get you a factory finish (though that's not saying much with this Willy, though I am a bit of a paint snob).

Thanks again for the advice, and I'll be posting pics as soon as I commence the project, Psychedelic Peppersicle (or something similar), hopefully by the end of this month.

[newey]

I've heard some people say they've just used Krylon acrylic spraypaint with good results.

I'm one of them. I use the Krylon clear over Krylon color, as I said, just to avoid any incompatibility. You can get OK results this way, but if you're really a "paint snob", you may be less than impressed.

For a better spray-over finish, a real paint gun is needed. I have heard that those Preval sprayers with the disposable cartridges work well, though I've never tried one.

[rootman1987]

As far as compatability, are metallic paints- the ones that look like metal flake, not the chrome ones, going to be compatible with regular acrylic paints? I would assume so, but I have no idea how regular and metallic lacquers differ.

A friend of mine has used that "Paint Your Own Guitar" E-Book, that says you can get a factory finish by polishing properly, which is easy enough, or at least the concept is easy enough to understand, so assuming this holds water, I'm not SO concerned with the finish- except the curing time is going to KILL ME. I haven't see his guitar yet, but he says it looks awesome.

[newey]

Not sure on the metallic paints, I'm about to do a project in metallic silver, so I should have some hands-on experience with them soon.

except the curing time is going to KILL ME.

Go slow and be patient. I used to be the same way, always wanting to rush the next coat on. I learned the hard way that, when you hurry it, you often end up sanding it down and starting over because you screwed up the job trying to rush.

[cynical1]

newey has pretty much covered everything here for what it sounds like you're looking to do.

You probably have a poly or catalyst clear on this guitar to start with. Test your primer in a discreet place to see if it sticks or lifts. If the primer has good adhesion then you're fine. If it lifts the clearcoat, or scrapes off with your finger after it dries then you'll need to strip it to the wood...or find a better primer. I'd suggest the better primer option as stripping poly or catalyst is VERY time consuming.

Krylon will work. Any exterior enamel or acrylic will work. Auto paints are my personal preference. The easiest auto paint solution is Dupli-Color. They have lines in enamel and lacquer. They also have a very acceptable sanding primer in enamel that works very well on guitars. I've done a few guitars with Dupli-Color and have been surprised at how well they turn out. Both their enamel and lacquer lines have a final clearcoat.

If you do have access to a compressor and paint gun that is the way to go. I'm a firm believer in the adage that doing it right the first time prevents having to do it again.

Any auto paint store will have a catalog the size of 30 NY phone books with colors and different painting systems. I prefer the DuPont 2 part non-bake system. It ain't cheap, but if you find a dealer with a high volume they'll usually pour a half pint off for you. This system is nice in that it has a 1 hour recoat and a 3 hour clear window. Pot life is only about 30 minutes, so only mix what you'll use or it's driveway sealer...

There are other lines and paint manufacturers out there, so check the Yellow Pages and see what's in your area and take an hour and go talk to guys in the shop.

Even without a compressor and gun you can still use, as newey pointed out, a Preval sprayer to take advantage of the higher quality auto paints.



I've used these things on numerous occasions and found they work very well on guitar bodies and necks. I used them a lot on maple neck re-frets to lacquer the re-fretted/nutted neck prior to the fret work. Re-painting an entire body will probably take 3-5 re-fill cans depending on how how much you reduce your color coats and how nuts you go with the clearcoat.

Correct me of I mis-read your earlier posting, but did you say you were going to hand paint, then spray a clearcoat? If this is the case, be prepared for A LOT of sanding prior to the clearcoat to remove the brush marks...then even more sanding, re-clearing, sanding and reclearing to end up with a smooth final surface.

For example, in order to make one decal on a bicycle head tube appear seamless in the final finish it takes between 10-30 coats of clear, depending on the thickness of the decal, sanded between every 3-4 coats and re-cleared, in order to make the final surface flat.

Unless you're re-creating a Chagall, or have some trippy thing you can't re-create otherwise, try and work out a method where you can tape and spray. By spraying equal coats of your colors in the pattern you save yourself a tremendous amount of sanding and re-clearing.

My father painted cars for 29 years, and I've been playing at painting cars, bicycles and guitars for 20. In all that time I've seen two guys that can paint freehand pinstripes and designs that look good and don't show brushmarks. Even an airbrush is preferable to hand painting when you get to the final finishing. Trust me on this and your fingers will thank you.

And hand painting metallics is an art. Generally you slightly over reduce and overspray a metallic so the flakes come to the surface more prior to clearcoating. Prior to the clearcoat on most modern metallic systems the actual metallic color coat looks like dull SH_T. The clear is what makes it snap. When you hand paint you can't reduce it that much, so it's more likely the metal particles won't rise as well.

And finally, trust the curing times on all paints and clearcoats. Increase the time for humidity and cooler temperatures. If there's a temperature range don't use it when it's too cold or too hot. They put those times and spec's in there for a reason. This is especially critical with lacquers. If you try and rush it you'll be doing it again.

And wear a mask. A bandanna doesn't cut it.

One final note. Whatever paint manufacturer or system you chose, stay with it for the entire process. Don't mix brands or systems. They can expand and contract differently, check, lift...basically do all the bad things you don't want. In short, make sure the primer, color and clear all come from the same system or manufacturer.

Well, that's about it. I'll be around this weekend if you have any questions, then I'm off the non-Internet land for a week.

Happy Trails

Scott

[rootman1987]

Wow Scott, thanks for the advice. With this and the info I've gathered off of a few sites, like Project Guitar, I'm ready and fearless. I've had a few unexpected expenses come up, butonce those are taken care of, I'm getting started. I've got a sweet peppermint swirl idea I found on an antique looking pendant, and I'll post it once I've transposed it onto a drawing of my wilshire to see what people think. I'm not going to handpaint, but I do have one more question- How should one go about inlaying celluloid plastic? I'm thinking about, instead of painting a few of the colors, inlaying celluloid plastic on there, to give it a one of a kind look. I'm going to heat it to form to the bodyso that it goes to the back, which I know can be done well enough that the plastic won't bend off of the body or put pressure on the paint, but I'm trying to figure out if I'll need to use a router so that it sets a bit in the wood, but I figured this could probably be avoided but using enough clear coat, and it won't look like it's sitting above the paint.

Also, as far as enamel, I've got another possibility involving a rather difficult technique- swirling- and I was wondering if anyone has an opinion on enamels and their quality compared to acrylic. And thanks again guys, this has really helped to give me some confidence- even though I still feel a bit like I'm flying blind, but that will pass once the time has come to do this.

[cynical1]

Fireball posted a guitar here he used a swirling technique he found on Project Guitar I believe. I've never done it, so I can't comment on how it works or what I'd do differently after the first time through. I'd drop him a PM and ask.

Laying celluloid onto the guitar is feasible. My first concern is will the paint system and clear you use eat it alive. Certain types of decals and transfers will melt depending on what you coat them with. Actually, it's what you use to cut the paint that does it, but the "unique" results are the same...and you're probably not going to like them.

Before you route the body or apply the celluloid take a small amount whatever you are going to clear the body with and see what it does. If it curls or melts it, then at least you saved the time of applying and stripping later.

There are ways around this, but they are more work then you're looking for.

Most sign shops can provide a substrate that can live comfortably under your final finish. Go for the thinnest .mil thickness you can get and have them apply a top sheet.

The top sheet has your centerlines and registration marks. When you apply the decal, transfer or whatever you remove the backing sheet with the top sheet still adhering to your transfer. Starting at one side you use a rubber applicator or a credit card to apply working from left to right or right to left depending on your preference. This eliminates creases and bubbles. Since the adhesive on your transfer is stronger then the adhesive on the top sheet, once you have it firmly applied to the body you just pull the top sheet and you're done. If done correctly you will have no creases or bubbles or tears.

Make sure the surface you're mounting the transfer to is sanded completely smooth than flat.

If you don't quite understand where I'm going with this explanation, the guys at the sign shop will.

Hope this helps. If I muddied the waters, just ask for clarification.

Happy Trails

Cynical One