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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 5, 2009 22:47:36 GMT -5
I checked all five pages in the pickups section and didn't see very much about acoustic pickups.
Part of the magic of the acoustic guitar to many people is the "living room jam session" with an unplugged guitar, spraying sound off anything in a ten foot radius...
What about the people here that like playing them live?!
I dunno about you, but I like spraying my sound all over everything and everyone.
I think we need some discussion on acoustics on stages and in recording studios! Who is with me?!
Acoustics need love too!
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Post by D2o on Jul 6, 2009 8:40:32 GMT -5
I checked all five pages in the pickups section and didn't see very much about acoustic pickups. No ... errrr, I mean, yeah, no, there is not much there. How about this? Amen, syd ... I am with you. I can strum the same chord over and over and not tire of it ... well, providing my socks are in a puddle of beer, you understand. ;D Seriously, I am very partial to acoustic guitars. GN2 is generally regarded as one of the very best sites when it comes to electric guitar wiring, mods, troubleshooting, etc., and it is not as if anyone has anything against acoustic guitars ... ... but, as you have noticed, it just ain't the forum for acoustics. D2o |
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Post by D2o on Jul 6, 2009 11:00:59 GMT -5
By the way, the manufacturer mentioned in that thread is Shadow (a German company). I recently ripped a Shadow 2500E transducer pickup - the original, passive, element type of pickup that you stick to the underside of the guitar body with a bit of tacky putty - out an old Hyundai A/E guitar that was the victim of one of my experiments. It does a reasonably credible job of sounding like an acoustic guitar when plugged in, and I find that it is quite difficult to overdrive when recording (no crappy bphff bphff bpfhh fuzz sounds when you playback what you think you've just recorded). Keeping in mind that I paid $0 for it, which always taints the picture a little, I quite like it ... for what it is (i.e. a passive pickup, with NO EQ). Does it sound as good as a modern Shadow Nanoflex (the equivalent of having a condenser-microphone mixed with an undersaddle pickup)? Hell no, of course not. It is what it is and cannot be more or less than that. |
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 6, 2009 11:35:15 GMT -5
I saw the shadow thing when I was surfing one day, but then I remembered seeing a bunch of REALLY odd shadow products for electric guitars on musicans friend, and decided that it was a beast best left undisturbed for the time being. I think one is like... individual string EQ with LEDs on the pickup cover, or something... Just search the company and it'll pop up.
My current on stage acoustic setup is:
Guitar (needs to be upgraded... I've been thinking... cort. High end. currently 300ish dollar range takimine. G series.)
One of those fancy guitar HOLDERS that holds it in place.
Line out to an a/b box, so I can switch it in mid song.
cord runnin to the amp.
And also some mic'age out front of the strings into the PA when the PA is available.
So, I'm seeing that this is pretty standard. I was kinda hoping I was doing something wrong, actually. That would explain a little.
It, uh... I think it has a lot to do with the guitar, but I have trouble getting up to gig volumes... given, we tend to play it nice'n'loud, but it still seems like we're having some trouble with it.
...then the PA feedback sometimes gets my buddies 52' tele reissue going... don't get me f****** started on that thing...
Anyone use the soundhole covers?
I'm looking for anything that might help.
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Post by D2o on Jul 6, 2009 11:46:11 GMT -5
Anyone use the soundhole covers? I'm looking for anything that might help. I have one of these Dean Markley Suppressors. It claims to retain the tone when unplugged (yeah, sure) ... but it does work as advertised when plugged in. I have not tried anything else to compare it to, but I have found an immediate and meaningful reduction in feedback with the Suppressor. D2o |
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 6, 2009 16:44:25 GMT -5
Hrmm... I think I'll give one a shot.
Get one for 45 days from MF, or something.
Thanks, D2o. I'll let ya know how it works out.
....This by no means spells the end for my topic! I want those opinions and sh*t, ya'll.
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Post by newey on Jul 6, 2009 22:29:30 GMT -5
I use this:  Good old fashioned soundhole mag pup, no batteries or preamp required! I've never had a problem with feedback, but then again I've never used it onstage so I can't say that it wouldn't feedback at higher volumes and/or if used with a PA. But it sounds very rich and full. I've got it angled in the soundhole in the photo a bit as I was playing around with the positioning at the time, but usually it sits straight in there. And, now that I look at that photo, man, my fretboard badly needs a lube job! |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 6, 2009 22:36:57 GMT -5
syd, You can have my opinions, for what they're worth, but as for the output of my body, you'll have to pay up just like everyone else.  Acoustic guitars, yeah, I've got a stable full of them. And they all play just as nicely as my Fender Strat AmDlx, circa 2005. Of course, they come through the PA with a "little" bit of assistance of my good buddy, the Roland VG-88.   There are lots of models in there, but I think I have to admit that my favorite, and that of most audients that I encounter, is the Flamenco - that is just too realistic, and I didn't have to spend 25 years in Basque learning how to fingerpick, either! ;D Otherwise, I think they make great beer can holders! HTH sumgai |
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Post by D2o on Jul 7, 2009 10:05:56 GMT -5
Nice guitar, newey - I have an FG-450S-L and love it (it was actually the subject of the L to R conversion. While some may not be crazy about the idea of magnetic soundhole pickups - in general, some of them are pretty credible sounding and - to point - they are resistant to feedback. sumgai, I know you enjoy surf guitar and, if you also enjoy actual surf, you may have use for that beer-carrier guitar on picnics. It is for sale - cheap! mmmm ... beer.  |
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 7, 2009 10:40:18 GMT -5
newey, the pickup itself may be resistant to (microphonic) feedback, but I'd be willing to bet that the guitar itself will break into resonant (string) feedback when amplified to even moderate volumes. Why? Because it's specifically designed to resonate. I personally love that feeling when the body of the guitar is shaking like it's going to fall apart and the strings are playing themselves and feel like their about to jump off the fretboard!  Ever try an E-bow on an acoustic? It can be kind of scary. That said, I don't play acoustic guitars in live amplified settings very often. Haven't experimented much with pickup options. I've got a couple of those Dean Markley "woody" style soundhole pickups, but have never been particularly happy with them. I do get almost acceptable results when I stick one (via 3M velcro strips for hanging pictures) to the back of the head on my banjo, but not because it sounds much like an actual acoustic banjo. For recording, my favorite techinque is to use my EV 635a and move it around the guitar till it sounds good. Condensers, and even some of my more accurate dynamics tend to be too fast, accentuating that extreme high end zing that reminds of what I hate about under-saddle piezos. The 635a is (still, I think) the world's most popular "news gathering" mic. It doesn't have much extension in the bottom end of the frequency spectrum, so it doesn't get boomy or muddy. Being omni, it lacks proximity effect, which also helps this. It tops out at frequencies a little lower than some, which helps keep the hi-end smooth and natural sounding. As important, I think it's got a fairly slow transient response, which is what keeps it from getting all piezoey. |
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Post by D2o on Jul 7, 2009 10:53:21 GMT -5
Ha! That's funny!
That happened with my undersaddle piezo equipped acoustic/electric, but not with my tacky putty, body mounted transducer equipped one - and, yes, the first time it happened I rushed over to my guitar in fear that it was going to self-destruct ... the strings were vibrating like Gallopin' Gertie.
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 7, 2009 11:40:35 GMT -5
syd, You can have my opinions, for what they're worth, but as for the output of my body, you'll have to pay up just like everyone else. I can be pretty charming if I put my mind to it.  And as far as the 635a is concerned I may give it a shot. I've never been happy with the recorded acoustic tone we've gotten. Though my new RECORDING RIG should help. I think I'm gonna start running it through my blackstar HT 5H head with the EQ in the loop and out my B.A. home made cab before micing it. Maybe that'll sound better than the piezo mixing into the PA. Then mix that with the 635a... The mic they were using was really good, but seemed to have a treble peak like Mt. Everest. How do you guys feel about amp'd acoustics for recording? I know it's SOP for live, but the studio where we did our stuff seemed to wanna run right into the PA... then again, their amps aren't nearly as nice as mine.  I think I'm gonna throw them out next time and just use their mics and their rooms. They can come back inside to master lol. |
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Post by D2o on Jul 7, 2009 11:57:35 GMT -5
Personally, I almost always use my Samson CO1U condenser mic, plugged into the USB of my computer, when recording acoustic.
Bare in mind, I am an insurance agent - not a good or professional musician. I am just recording rank amateur crap in my home ... so take my own preference with a grain of salt (and I agree with Ash that this method does sometimes have a bit of muddiness about it).
I've been meaning to try recording - also via condenser mic - the unplugged guitar on one side of the mic and the amp (plugged in guitar through the amp) on the other side of the mic, to hear what the balance of the two sounds like.
This would be more for the sake of trying it out, as opposed to any real expectations of anything wonderful happening.
I like to record the actual sound of the acoustic, unplugged, as best I can with my limited equipment.
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Post by newey on Jul 7, 2009 12:59:44 GMT -5
Before I sprung for one of those soundhole covers, there is a low-tech approach. Just use some of that low-stick no-residue painter's tape over the hole, and around the soundhole pup if that's what you're using.
Guys who played live with semi-hollow bodied electrics used to tape over the f-holes for just that reason- Mark Farner of Grand Funk used to do that, and they were using some pretty ear-splitting volume levels back in the day.
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Post by D2o on Jul 7, 2009 13:10:32 GMT -5
Hmm, not a bad idea - especially considering that getting "The Suppressor*" in and out is not as easy as they like you to think.
It* works, but I found it jams against the strings when I try to shoehorn it in there. I'm going to try tape.
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Post by newey on Jul 7, 2009 16:13:37 GMT -5
D2o-
I just noticed you're over 1000 posts! You're a MOD GOD now!
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Post by sumgai on Jul 7, 2009 17:42:12 GMT -5
Before I sprung for one of those soundhole covers, there is a low-tech approach. Just use some of that low-stick no-residue painter's tape over the hole, and around the soundhole pup if that's what you're using.
Guys who played live with semi-hollow bodied electrics used to tape over the f-holes for just that reason- Mark Farner of Grand Funk used to do that, and they were using some pretty ear-splitting volume levels back in the day. Ah yes, but could Mark do what Ted did (and still does!) with his Byrdland? Notice the strong absense of anything covering those holes - it'd deprecate his tone! |
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 7, 2009 19:10:58 GMT -5
And tape is cheap!
*checks the shed*
And tape is free!
I'm trying to get as close to the natural sound as possible. I was using about a 1K washburn with some "swiss made" electronics, according to the owner, in the studio recording.
Actually, what worked REALLY well for us in the past was the little built-in mic on my friend's mac running into garage band. Was a little hard to track over, but with two acoustics and an acoustic bass, the sound quality was unbelievable.
...then our singer tracked over it like two years later! Sounds amazing, even if our playing is a little off tempo from time to time.
Search myspace for "cowboy shogun"
We're the only active japense rock cover band in the country... it's a long story, but it was the one of the two projects that we've kept up over the years. In the vids I'm the guy with the wine red LP, and then the green ESP... and no, in the Cage vid with the green guitar I am NOT the one that plays the bum chord after the bass solo lol.
ANYWAY, Hybridized rainbow (the old one) is recorded on a mac, and the NEW song up, the same song, is a crappy "professional" recording pre-mastering.
And this is what I'm dealing with for tone... I love the sound of the mac recording, even if I'm playing a 40 dollar classical. If there were a way to get THAT sound, I think I would do it. Or at least try.
Jesse
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 8, 2009 0:27:26 GMT -5
So, you paid for a studio and they forced you to plug an acoustic/electric guitar into a PA then miked that? Certainly is a novel idea. Honestly, I can see where the sound they achieved could be interesting for something. Might even try it (or something similar) here sometime. I think I can hear what you don't like about it, or at least I know what I don't like about it. I don't think it's completely appropriate for what you're doing, and if you're not happy with it... It might should be mentioned around here more often: In most real world situations - live and recorded - it doesn't much matter what any single guitar sounds like on its own. The real pursuit should be to get a tone that fits well in the overall mix. This will be different for a singer/songwriter than for the "Bono guitar" in a rock band, which will be different than what's needed for an old-timey string band, etc. I don't think it's any excuse for that horrible all-treble piezo sound that the Western Pop folks seem to like. Still, it's worth bearing in mind. All that said, I still think that the only way to get anything that sounds like a real acoustic guitar is to capture it with a microphone somewhere outside of the guitar. (Well, I haven't had a chance to try a good modellered acoustic...) Big problem a lot of us have with this is that when you're talking about a mic, you're also talking about a room. I avoid microphones as much as possible thanks to the fact that I'm always recording in rooms whose acoustic properties and ambient noise levels are unacceptable. On stage, if one isn't extremely careful (and sometimes even when one is), a live microphone can be prone to feedback, and mulitples can cause phase cancellation issues. Let me say another thing, while I'm typing. I complain about the sound of under saddle piezo guitars. I have found, though, that most of these are equipped with at least 3 bands of EQ, and I can usually get an acceptable sound by sliding the one on the extreme right all the way down. Still doesn't sound like what I think an acoustic should, but at least it's not painful. Then, of course, there's a specific sound that I use on rare occassions which can only be accomplished by running a piezo pickup through a distorted amp. |
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Post by D2o on Jul 8, 2009 9:48:58 GMT -5
Ash, you wrote
Before I had any mics or method of recording ...
I still use that occasionally and I still say it's not that bad ... which, I realize, is rather subjective, depending on the sound you are trying to capture.
Out of curiosity, I am still interested to find a (low cost) way to hear how it sounds through an amp, and see if it is prone to feedback.
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 8, 2009 11:15:05 GMT -5
Well, they ran the piezo into a PA and ALSO mic'd the room, and then blended the two for the single track.
And it sounds good, but... lacking a little.
And don't even mention the tone of the OTHER guitars. It not only doesn't belong on the acoustic forum, but it doesn't even belong on any format.
Next time we record I'm going to run the show, not those guys. It was my first time in a studio, and I guess I was feeling a bit timid. I let control slip away too much. I'm in New York until the end of the year, but we're doing an actual demo early 2010. It'll be a nice "When Jesse was being nice" and "when Jesse was being a bossy A hole" sampling.
electric guitar tone is the one I'm pretty good with, and that track has none of it... Oh well, I lament it for good reason, but the acoustic forum isn't the place.
But yes, keeping the guitar sounding well with the mix is the most important thing, which is why the amping idea interests me so much. In that track we (they) recorded every guitar track through a different amp, for some reason. The result was the melody track (gibson les paul deluxe with stock mini in neck and duncan SP-2 in bridge) and the acoustic tracks are MELLOW and sweet, while the drive track on the chorus is muddy (played through a crate with a dimebucker. I think that's what First Act calls "lead" tone.)
When my Blackstar arrives in a few days I'm going to start testing things out in a few different situations to see if I can get that to sound a bit woodier.
And I totally agree on the country piezo obsession. WTF is that all about? I mean, "bright" is one thing, but if I see someone playing an acoustic I expect to HEAR someone playing an acoustic! Nonetheless, I'm sure everyone has heard that ridiculously piezoie acoustic tone in a song and secretly though, "well, that actually fits..."
Oh, and the boss acoustic simulator can get pretty close to that country acoustic tone with the right EQ and guitar. Actually, running with the gibber, I think I can get better acoustic (if a bit muddy) tone out of the simulator than I can with most piezo acosutics.
the ESP is a little brighter. The gibber is chunky, and warm. It sounds, well, quite similar to the melody on that track! Which, by the way, tickled me pink in my T(one) spot.
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Post by sydsbluesky on Aug 7, 2009 12:30:02 GMT -5
I recently discovered that my Five-or-so year old Takamine 241G Aco-elec is beginning to show some signs of it's age, and I lament.
I recently discovered that I have a friend in the business of selling guitars for a brick and mortar, and I rejoice.
I'm in the 2000-2500 range for this purchase... or at least that's what the tag will say in the store.
I'm looking at the martin aura series. Anyone have experience with these? I've heard nothing but rave reviews on the Aura system, but it's hard to wrap my head around acoustic electronics in a store.
Any opinions? Suggestions? Funny stories?
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Ever try an E-bow on an acoustic? It can be kind of scary.
