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Post by angelodp on Jul 9, 2009 14:14:48 GMT -5
On my current project ( StratoDanno ) I have a series/split-coil/parallel switch. When I go to split coil the sound does get a bit twangier, and the impedance reading does drop from 15k to 8k, but when I tap the two coils ( with screw driver ) they both are ' alive ' . My question is, shouldn't the slug coil be out of the circuit at that point and not be responsive to the tap test?
ange
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Post by D2o on Jul 9, 2009 14:28:28 GMT -5
I have a guitar that switches from humbucker to single coil (depending on where the tone is set - kinda neat), and I have noticed the same condition when tapping it.
Bottom line: if the impedence and tone fit, fuhgeddaboudit.
D2o
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Post by angelodp on Jul 9, 2009 14:49:39 GMT -5
Yah, fegadaboughtit, but I would like to understand what is happening to cause that.
a
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Post by D2o on Jul 9, 2009 15:06:33 GMT -5
Now that you mention it, me too actually. I guess that "magic" explanation has kinda stopped working for me  This is as good an explanation as any: |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 9, 2009 16:11:35 GMT -5
ange, D2o's quote is spot on, particularly the part about the closed-loop magnetic circuit. Most humbuckers use a large magnet at the bottom of the coil pair (though certainly not all of 'em). That means that if you disturb the magnetic field from anywhere, the disturbance will be reflected in the coil that's being used. The only way to truly test the validity of the electrical switch circuitry is to hook a meter to each individual coil, in electrical isolation from the other coil, while twanging the magnetic field. The further-reaching aspects of this are addressed, and roundly discussed, in JohnH's The Dreaded Tone Suck thread. (Actually he calls it "Ground Loops", but the underlying topic comes out quickly enough. ) HTH sumgai |
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Post by angelodp on Jul 9, 2009 21:17:46 GMT -5
Ok, I see.
thanks a
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 9, 2009 23:03:59 GMT -5
Most humbuckers use a large magnet at the bottom of the coil pair (though certainly not all of 'em). That means that if you disturb the magnetic field from anywhere, the disturbance will be reflected in both of the coils and thru both of the sets of pole pieces.
While only one coil may be connected, the magnetic path is the same.
And that, boys and girls, is why these can never sound like a traditional single coil.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 10, 2009 1:42:19 GMT -5
Chris, You're correct, of course, but it's a technicality. When one is purposefully accessing only one coil out of the pair, the fact that the other coil is also responding to the magnetic field is a non-starter. After all, that ostracized coil is not connected (in a useful way - it might be shorted), so how would one know that it's actually doing anything besides just sitting there?  Which leads back to D2o's assertion that if the resistance reading is pretty close to what's expected, then the circuit is probably behaving itself.  Damn, I'm really gonna have to start watchin' what I say more closely, aren't I? ;D Looks like the days of inferring and assuming are just about over. Ah well, I suppose it could be worse..... someone could post an audio file of Tiny Tim's 'Tiptoe Through The Tulips' in his signature - that'd get my attention! Not to mention an industrial-sized application of Ye Olde Ban Hammer!  Thanks. sumgai |
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Post by D2o on Jul 10, 2009 9:21:39 GMT -5
Looks like the days of inferring and assuming are just about over.  |
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 10, 2009 20:23:41 GMT -5
Au contrary Pierrie. No self-wedgies required.  No correction intended, just reinforcement of the effect of the magnetic path on the pickup coil(s). When we split/shunt/short/tap/toot or whatever, we do nothing to the magnetic path. It's still the same, and is still affecting things. This is one of the reasons why the capacitive shunting of one coil in a series structure sounds so nice; it will bypass high frequencies from one series coil while shunting the high frequencies of the other series coil around it. It can make a nice, semi hum-canceling, sort of single coil sound. That's if it's in a series structure. If its just shorted/cap shunted it might have other effects (or not). In a screw/slug side-by-side pickup, the screw coil tends to have a higher frequency response than the other. It can sound weak though and is often facing the bridge for cosmetic and harmonic reasons. The slug coil is the one often used since it has better magnetic path coupling (more ferrous mass), more significant string movement, and hence, a stronger output. The screw coil, setting a'top the slug coil which is cap or RC shunted, can give a nice single coil'ish sound. The best way to try this is to make a capacitive substitution box and switch in various caps in lieu of a shorting jumper. I like to use 0.047, 0.033, 0.027, 0.022, 0.015, and 0.01 uF in series with a 100K dial pot (or a pot with a knob pointing to marked values). This takes a 6 pole switch and the pot. If you leave out one of the cap values, you can have a shorting position. (Actually I use cap and resistor substitution boxes, but I'm 'splaining how to make them.) It's great for tuning/trying things. Put the switch and pot in a little box with 18" clip leads. It's also a good way to try different tone caps. Use mylar/film caps; don't use ceramic. |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 10, 2009 20:48:47 GMT -5
Chris, Nice explanation. But I've got a question or two about the effects of all that.... A. If you fine-tune with many-valued substitution boxes, do you ever reach the point of "Aha!"? and..... B. If so, are you doing that while in a pristine environment? The point being, what happens when you take that oh-so-tasty tonality on stage? Does it still make you quiver, or does the magic disappear in all the surrounding depravity? or...... C. Are you doing all this on the fly, in front of people who are paying good money to swill beer to make their ears ever-less sensitive to all those nuances you keep searching for? and..... D. If so, do you get to take home the beer steins they throw at you, at least the ones that are shiny?  sumgai |
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Post by angelodp on Jul 10, 2009 21:22:28 GMT -5
You guys are a crackup...no....just NUTS.... smart ones. Now let me see, perhaps I should consider going for the slug coil in the coil cut selection based on what I just read. BTW what are the best HB to use in series/coil-cut/parallel format. I mean which, in your ( et all ) experience HB seems to be best suited. Is there such an animal as an HB that is fact two fender style SC placed right next to each other and wired for HB or ser/cc/par.
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Post by wolf on Jul 10, 2009 21:53:16 GMT -5
I think the best humbucker to use for series / parallel / coil-cut is a high output pickup - DiMarzio X2N, DiMarzio Distortion, Seymour Duncan Invader, etc.
And to repeat that oft-told warning, caveat, admonition, etc. wirng a humbucker for coil-cut switching will not make your guitar sound like a Fender Stratocasterâ„¢.
I think Sumgai raises an interesting point about making micro-changes to capacitance using a substitution box:
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 12, 2009 23:59:18 GMT -5
Of course, the entire point being the tuning of pickups to the exact sound that WE want, prior to their modification by tone controls.
After all, the minor differences between pickups are in many ways attributable to the changes in inductance as well as drive/output levels. One can moderately tune one's guitar pickups thru the varying application of $70 pickups (which makes us feel good about the tone in direct response to our investment - it works for audiophiles) or thru the use of $0.10 caps (it can't be that simple, can it?).
The same thing that always happens - pearls before swine.
Caveat Diem - seize the day.
Caveat per Diem - seize the check.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 13, 2009 2:28:21 GMT -5
Caveat? Carpe?
Viva la Difference! ;D
sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Jul 13, 2009 2:32:35 GMT -5
....... pearls before swine. Don't insult the pigs like that, they like to think they're a cut above the average Kylehead! |
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Post by KIIMH on Jul 13, 2009 8:50:06 GMT -5
....... pearls before swine. Don't insult the pigs like that, they like to think they're a cut above the average Kylehead! ... i had a goud repsonze goin but i forgt ... oh yah: liek, is that suposed to be a insult? |
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Post by D2o on Jul 13, 2009 8:52:22 GMT -5
Good comeback, kyle ... you really showed him.
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 13, 2009 15:27:55 GMT -5
Yeah, no, I don't know, it was late, I woke up and started typing. The spell checker didn't care.
Crape per Diem, perhaps.
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 13, 2009 15:30:11 GMT -5
Yes, but only to those that don't get it.
If you do, you don't.
But if you don't.......you won't.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 13, 2009 20:04:25 GMT -5
Two funnies in a row.... +1 for Der Meister! ;D
(The forums limit us all to only one Karma point per person, per day. That goes even for us Admins.)
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Post by D2o on Jul 16, 2009 9:42:09 GMT -5
Two funnies in a row.... +1 for Der Meister! ;D (The forums limit us all to only one Karma point per person, per day. That goes even for us Admins.)I don't think so, mon ami. A GN2 member can issue a total of one Karma point per hour. How do you think you got such a high Karma count again so fast? (a few months back ... right before you set it back to zero!  ) ;D ;D |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 16, 2009 12:04:18 GMT -5
You mean like I did just now? ;D
And where did you hear about the 1 hour limit instead of 1 day? I'm testing that right now, as we speak - stay tuned......
sumgai
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Post by D2o on Jul 16, 2009 12:08:41 GMT -5
You mean like I did just now? ;D I learned about it the hard way, from this dude who I apparently offended. ..... that was improper. You are so mean.  -25 (hour by hour, one by one) Aside from the more (less?) than -100 that you, cyn and others chipped in, just how do you think kylehead became the Bernie Madoff of our inner circle of trust? ;D |
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-25 (hour by hour, one by one)