Chinese guitars

[angelodp]

Guys, whats the deal on the Chinese guitars that are advertised on this site. Anyone out there bought one yet. I presume that some elements can be easily swapped out for a better guitar?? LP says solid mahogany with solid top.

ange

[sydsbluesky]

I'm wondering the same thing.

Heh... tradetang. I hope "tang" means something else in China.

[newey]

If you read the fine print, it says "US customers please inquire before ordering". Presumably, when you contact them, they'll tell you that they'll be glad to take your money but they won't guarantee that the guitar won't be seized by US Customs.

If you noticed, the headstocks say "Gibson", "Fender", etc. In other words, no different than pirated DVDs or CDs from China.

Trademark infringement is . . .

[angelodp]

ouch, I was not sure if the headstock was clearly a rip.

[ChrisK]

I presume that some elements can be easily swapped out for a better guitar??

I presume that all of the elements could be swapped out for a better guitar. ;D ;D

You know, movin' on up to a Squier.....


The deal is that this is a ProBoards free hosting site that can have anything show up on its header. Did I mention that it was free?

[cynical1]

Install Firefox.

Install the AdBlock Plus addon.

Problem of ProBoards ads for cheezy Chinese rip-off guitars solved, as you will never see them again...or any other ad posted here...or on most other sites for that matter...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[lpdeluxe]

I think it's a good practice not to buy guitars/amps made in China.

1. Keep the dollars home. The Chinese stuff is not innovative, and is likely -- given the Chinese attitude about intellectual property -- ripping off the inventors.

2. China is not the place we want to support with our dollars. Maybe, not the place **I** want to support with my dollars.

3. A "Gibson" made in China? You are fooling yourself. Don't be an idiot. "Almost as good?" Come on. Grow up. I have owned lots of guitars...currently all my electrics are Gibsons, all my basses are Fenders. F*** China. I'll pay more for gear that will still be working down the road.

I gigged at a 4th of July party with a guy who had a Chinese-made electric (me on bass, another on rhythm, a keyboard player). The guitar was awful. There's no other word. Don't try to join my band with a Chinese guitar. You have no clue what "professional" means.

Am I prejudiced? Time will tell.

[ChrisK]

...given the Chinese attitude about intellectual property...

Are you inferring that there actually IS intellectual property afoot in the U.S. guitar industry?

Intellectual jokery perhaps.

Sorry, it's not commercial fraud, it's marketing.

[newey]

"Almost as good?" Come on. Grow up.

For now, that may be true. But watch out in the future. Making a quality guitar is not a matter of mystery and mojo.

Japanese cars were a joke in the 1960s. By 1980, no one was laughing.

Korean cars were terrible in the 1980s. My mechanic recently told me he was amazed at the quality coming out of Korea today.

Eventually, if we all live long enough, we'll be criticizing the guitars coming out of Tanzania, and lusting after the Chinese-made axes.

[sydsbluesky]

What do you mean China can't make anything of quality?!

My Ipod works just fine.

So does this chair, and this desk, and this lamp, and this fan, and this pen, and this clock, and this phone, and this nudie calendar, and this light bulb, and...

I'd buy a Chinese made guitar if it played right and was priced right. There is a hug difference between a "chinese" guitar and a guitar made in China. I'm not sure which of those two this gentleman you mention was playing, but...

If it's MADE in China, but for a company that located in another place, say, 1 Infinite Loop Cupertino, California 95014, most of the cash stays right in the good ol' US of A.

Even China is starting to outsource. Little ba$tard$ are trying to unionize, or something.

I mean... I hate to... Okay, I won't. I'll post a link instead.

arstechnica.com/apple/news/2007/06/ipod-manfacturing-is-valuable-to-many-countries.ars

I mean... that was the first result on the google machine.

There are shady companies in the U.S., too. My guess would be that TradeTang is one of the shady companies in China.

[D2o]

Congratulations, sydsbluesky: "Meter Reader 1st Class"

You know, if I had to choose between the 1998 Squier Affinity I recently acquired as a wiring mule (made Crafted in China for Fender) and the Chinese "Academy" that I had for the same reason, I would take the Academy - despite being blown away by how cheap the materials in the Academy were.

They figured out the cheapest possible way to make a guitar that still works. Hair thin wires, mini-pots, a green PCB as a 5-way switch ... everything was just crap. I mean to the point of being amazed that crap like that even existed and that something made with such crap could work.

But, once I sanded down the edges of the razor blades frets and shielded it, I actually quite liked it (as a sacrificial wiring lamb, at least).

The 1998 Squier Affinity may have better fit and finish from the get-go, but it actually has lifeless tone compared to the Academy, and - frets aside - no better build quality.

Of course, you won't be finding either of these guitar in the premiere issue of Guitar Afficianado or anything.

[sydsbluesky]

Mmm the dreaded razor frets!

Fact is that every guitar is different. I've played Gibsons with action like a squier acoustic. Sometimes ya never know what you're gonna get.

My personal Gibby took a LOT of tweaking, string changing and tune-o-matic replacing to find the action sweet spot.

...I wanna get one of those setsbar, or wtf ever they're called for it. The drop-in vibrato for the stop bar. If they're nice quality and work, 230 isn't bad for one.

But my thoughts wander!

[sumgai]

sbs,

We've discussed The Stetsbar, and other out-of-the-ordinary vibrato setups, do a search here, go back abouit 700 days. (That's my default, I just add two zero's and hit Enter.)

I have a local player/friend that has a Stetsbar on his Tele. Says it killed his sustain and most of his tone, although it works nice and smooth. Another friend put one on an LP, and that lasted about a quarter-hour - again, all sustain was gone.

I don't know the mechanical reasons for this, but I could take a guess or two. Still, the bottom line is, if your tone depends on deep sustain, then I know of at least two people would advise you otherwise......

HTH



sumgai

[sydsbluesky]

I think I can find a better use for 230 bucks, come to think of it...

Thanks.

[chuck]

Jul 14, 2009 17:57:37 GMT -5 sydsbluesky said:

I think I can find a better use for 230 bucks, come to think of it...

Thanks.

you could buy a Chinese guitar

but really , all seriousness aside ... the Chinese Epiphone electrics , and Ibanez acoustics i have played are pretty sweet.

i am sure there are some real dogs out there , but some surprising gems as well .

[ttsc]

As a project, I recently purchased a "Xaviere XV-825" from the Guitar Fetish. Boy was I disappointed. First off I thought the guitar was made in Korea. Wrong, it was made in China. Second, the GFS advertised it as brass saddles. Not, it's chrome plated saddles. Anyway, you get what you pay for, the misleading advertising that challenges us to compare these Xaviers with "the best" not those within it's price range.

Anyway, It is a work in progress. And I refuse to dump any money to improve it. But, I did a lot of work to improve it to be all it can be.

First, the frets were not leveled, and fingerboard was not leveled. Hence, leveled the frets, nd rolled the edges.
Second, replaced the steel barrel saddle with a 6 saddle copy for $20.
Third, fixed the sheared off pick guard screw.
Fourth, change the strap buttons to larger ones that are more functional.

Some things that can't be fixed: the neck was attached 1/4" off center. So, I can't upgrade the neck.

To be fair, the guitar only cost $200 + shipping. and a Squire to me is a lot better value with higher quality parts that can be used to build a parts caster.

I was hoping to use the parts or replace parts to build a decent tele. but, with the body and neck being drilled and routed off center, it's not worth building.

The only things decent about this guitar was the neck pickup, neck plate, control plate, tuners, and a very nice finish on the body.

Lesson learned: start a project with bare body and neck and build as you go.

Also, these Xaviere guitars are what they are, no more or no less. The quality control on them are lacking. This is not to say that other Chinese made guitars are the same.

For example, I had a Gretsch Double Jet (made in China) and it was very well made with good fret work, a bigsby, good construction and great sound. Also, their licensed amps are also fairly good (i.e., Epiphone, Jet City, VHT, etc...).

Buyer beware.

[flateric]

It's not just guitars - through my job we have to trade a lot with China for chemical raw materials. It is a minefiled and a lottery. They are not the cheapest in the world without good reason, the risks involved can wipe out the savings you hope to make. Biggest 'trick' is excellent quality lab-prepared sample to tempt you, then the full industrial quantity arrives and it's way off specification, not complying with the analysis certificate and it's very hard to send it back and get your money back. You need a really good and trusted chinese partner if you are not going to end up getting screwed.
A lot of the US and European companies now invest a lot of time in QC in their Chinese partner plants in order to keep standards up, it's a full time job but without it you can end up very disappointed. No matter how cheap it is, if you end up with a piece of crap, it's never really cheap enough.
With cheap manufacturing moved well out of Korea now, china has established some really good quality companies as well as a hige load of night-shift cowboys. Now manufacture is moving out of China into Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia, and the whole cycle is set to repeat.
Buyer beware indeed.

[4real]

Both my tele and new LP are chinese in origin. The tele a squier. The reality is that there is no reason at all that china can't make a decent guitar. But improting guitars is a problem and you can get bitten hard by freight and quality and also get tangled up in customs.

My LP is really a 3/4" flame maple top on a mahogony body...but then, mahogany comes in all kinds of 'flavours' and is generally generic...in this case it is a bit 'splintery'...so it is of course no gibson. It is easily on par with an epiphone and for all I know came out of the same factory.

One thing though, these higher end guitars all came without any hardware at all and no bridge posts drilled or anything, there is a fair bit of construction yet to do on them and cost in parts...and they were not that cheap either. Anything that sounds too good to be true probably is. I did run across one supplier that would supply guitars with or without fake inlays..hmm...I ran a mile as the quality of these things can vary enormously and anything could happen in the process...things go missing, things aren't what you ordered, etc.

The reality is that most of this stuff comes out of CNC machines...but you do need to spend a bit and take the risks to get anything worthwhile...there are a lot of unplayable toys out there and I got burned hard on some of them in recent times.

My tele is a squier but not all are created equal...there are high end squiers that you need to look out for...my tele was a 25th anniversary issue and very well made and solid ash and great neck. My contemporary strat is also a great player, mahogany body, but again, a little splintery when routed...but still works and looks great.

...

On the trem things...most know I use kahlers mostly these days, I quite like a well set up trad two post fulcrum fender style as well. If replacing a stop tail thing, I recommend them and if the stetsbar costs 230...hmm...i suspect the kahler is going to come in cheaper. Even Floyd tried to make a 'surface mount' version of the classic floyd by failed, the old washburn 'wonderbar' was an interesting solution with a torsion spring in it...but really anything like that can be a compromise.

I can report that the Kahler design in extremely solid and weighty and doesn't adversely affect sustain...but it is likely to alter the guitar a bit besides the routing which is minimal. They seem to have an improved individual string definition compared to the standard bridge types.

...

So, don't have a problem with chinese guitars and when the poster suggested "our dollars" I suppose it depends where you come from, outside the USA we are all stinging still from investing in US dollars after the GFC that came out of wall street and the resources boom of china was one of the few things that saved us...so, different perspectives.

But the suspect practices can be a problem and here is a big risk...

My advice tends to be to try and find a secondhand guitar that you know is decent, preferably that you can actually see...and build it up from there. Squier and epiphone as well as many others can be decent buys for the money. My tele was such a guitar and sprayed and every part selected and replaced to the highest standards from auctions and such over time.

[Yew]

My guitar tech always said that a Good squirer, (like one of the magic ones they make every now and again, that everything goes perfectly on) will play as good as a fender if it is set up right

on the other hand, i tried setting up a mates guitar, the truss rod had rusted to the point where it didnt work

[flateric]

Yep you can get some lame and dead US instruments (F & G's) as well, just not so many of them but they still cost a lot of money. The best advice has to be to find a good guitar shop with a load of models and sit down and play them all. Wait for the one that speaks to you - doesn't matter if is a mexican, Chinese, Korean or US instrument then (depending on your wallet size!)

[4real]

As the OP said, it is buyer beware and in this age so much is done completely sight unseen from the understandable hype that the guys selling the things are selling you. Often the effort is put into the things that don't really matter...like the finish or 'look'...these things appeal and sell...really a lot of 'retail' even more so on line is the 'idea' of something more than the actual value.

A good squier absolutely can play as well as a fender, but then it isn't a cheap guitar anymore. But, especially with things like epiphones and squiers, their higher end guitars are well made and built to the classic design specs reasonably closely...or at least enough.

Rusted truss rod...hmmm...now there is no accounting for neglect or weather...I suppose such things could happen in the container but never found that in decent guitars.

There are bad F & G as well, no doubt about it. For a while there the "Jap fenders" of a particular era were far and away better than anything fender itself was producing, and some squiers too...and these guitars are collectible now or at least highly valued.

A lot of things come down to budget and expectations. I got a very nice strat two years ago for $120 branded 'legend'. I needed something in a hurry as a test bed for projects and one in particular. I never even played it as it was, took out the pickguard and put in various pickups and such in the bathtub rout and a partial scratchplate so I could try out different wiring things without having to take off the strings. The body is probably bass wood, a bit soft but ok...the neck is well fretted and a good shape and very true with decent frets.

I used to have such a strat guitar that was a $50 pawnshop thing, not at all great but learned a lot of stuff with it...hollowed it out, added a sound whole, worked the trem, played with the wiring in various was despite the sub standard pickups and got some good sounds out of it...even refinished it! So, you can really learn a lot and do things to such a guitar you wouldn't dare on something 'precious'. It was old when I got it and after 8+ years now, I still own it (it turned into the first 'sustainer strat') but I really did wear it out and it isn't much of a player anymore.

After having learned stuff on guitars like this I had a much better idea of what I wanted or would like from a guitar, what works for me. I suppose one also has to rationalize the options, cut back on the number of switches and make things practical and neat...take the best ideas and reject the rest.

If you have the money, there is reasons to own a 'real' fender or gibson if that is what you really want. The '69 LP that I played for a couple of decades in bands was my second guitar really and bought SH in the 70's before the value was appreciated and they are remarkable guitars.

However, if you want a player or a guitar to heavily mod or build up to your specs...probably not the best choice to go expensive!

With this in mind, all the guitars I now play are 'chinese' guitars...my strat I got new on special (1/2 price) but retailed for A$600 or so (a high end squier then) and the tele i got half built as someone had started a project with it, but again, the basic thing was a higher end model. The LP is a bit unusual, but I got that as finished body neck and cost a few hundred and had to go through all the importation risk and such.

But you have to put a fair amount of money into them as well...the hardware can quickly add up. So, you really need to be sure that the basic neck and body is up to the task. And, you need to be sure of your skills with some of these things and have some tools.

But I am really pleased that I went in the cheapo guitar direction, each one is unique in look and sound and built up to pro spec at a third of the cost...in fact they are really 'custom shop' things. If you are into the idea of heavy modding of things, these things are ideal for learning those things and getting a feel for what you want out of a guitar and sidestepping the 'hype' and discovering a few things for yourself..plus it's a bit of fun.

The reality is that I can't afford to let the old LP out of the house these days as it wouldn't be covered by the insurance. I even pay a premium to have it insured in the house and keep it well hidden in it's flight case meaning I don't play or even see it!!! Now, these cheaper guitars, I can take out with far less risk and concern...and more variety. No one guitar is going to be able to do everything either, it does not matter how you wire the things.

So, with this in mind, I do some trick wiring and just try and get the guitar to do what it does best for me...and get another to cover the next base. I like any guitar to play the kinds of things that I normally play of course, so they do need some versatility...but it is kind of neat to change guitars to get our of a rut and get a different sound and perhaps a different approach to a song.

...

On the economic thing...well...it happens here too of course...but really for a long time now most things are 'imported' and not home grown at all. I drive an 'american car' in Oz, but it was made in mexico, just like my genuine fender amp! High end pickups, you can be sure the plastic parts and hardware and probably the wire are sourced from asia.

Most things are made with robots anyway these days...there really isn't much if any difference in the end between something built entirely by hand with most things and something that is carved out of the same wood with a CNC machine...look at Taylor guitars for instance.

It's perfectly possible to get a decent guitar from anywhere...but this kind of thing also means the market is saturated with lots of tempting 'looks good' low end guitars and other things...you do have to pay something to get something decent and one should make every effort to know what one is really getting, preferably see the thing before you buy.

Still, it leaves the way open to pick up some fine basic mid range instruments in a wide range of styles to start from and slowly build things up from there.

[jcgss77]

I really don't see how the adage goes that if anything made in the USA has to be more expensive. It is true about some things, like hand-made guitars. Honestly, I would love to own a guitar that was hand made in the US from wood that sprouted from our own soil (I will build that guitar someday!). I have priced American made tools compared to the Asian offerings, and the price is usually within a few dollars. You know which one I will be buying. Our corporations really fire me up when I think about it.

I also don't get it when I browse eBay and see generic Chinese guitars selling for hundreds of dollars. When I look close, they usually say Arbor on them, a guitar that you can buy the LP version for $200 new from any guitar seller, ordered. They do sound good, with good pups I grudglingly admit, but you need to rip out ALL the hardware. And people pay for them. And they sell more.

[thetragichero]

after a good setup and rewiring, my indochinese swuier strat (the 99$ affinity series, no less) is pretty killer. the neck is like a baseball bat so it'll be replaced, but it's still plays better than a lot of other guitars i've played

[newey]

jcgss77 said:

Honestly, I would love to own a guitar that was hand made in the US from wood that sprouted from our own soil

DeLisle Guitar Co. makes this one for $999- US made, handbuilt, with an American Linden body and a TV Jones P90. This is the basic model, they go up from there- your choice of custom options. But who says a USA-made guitar has to be outrageously priced?

Carvin will sell you this (US-made, with a US Alder body) for $700.


And, as an added reason to go with a small boutique builder, as opposed to one of the USA's "Big Three", is that the smaller builders will be willing to work with you to get it how you want it.

[flateric]

Our company (not mine, the one I am employed by) set up a factory in India recently and a Chinese sales office. The average salary costs in India are less than 1/5th that of Europe, they do not have their hands and money tied by expensive health and safety regulations, emissions or waste disposal. This is where the real savings in moving to the East are realised. USA and Europe will never compete on price, they just have to hope there are nationalistic loyalties within their customer base who can justify to themselves the much higher item prices, and hope they get a corresponding quality improvement. Sadly this is not always the case any more. UK companies not moving to India or China will no longer be able to compete. even the great Marshall - now made in India, I had 4 separate QC issues with my bass rig I bought last year and eventually sent it back for a refund. What a shame.

[jcgss77]

newey-

Hey, those prices are not bad! And I have heard nothing but goodness about Carvin guitars. But still too high for me to buy. I am still making my own, and should be next year. I don't have American wood but got African Mahogany (is there a such thing?), enough for 2 necks and a body, for less than $60. Oh yeah, I am ready to rock! All built by hand too!

[cynical1]

I've been sitting this one out until now because it is a particular sore spot for me having been left out in the cold several times over the years due to dumping and outsourcing...but I guess it's time to toss my "Chinese" experience into the ring.

If you notice a disparity between junk Chinese guitars and passable ones, remember one critical thing about doing business in China. In order to open your factory, or sub-contract over there, you must "share' your technology with the Chinese. This means blueprints, manufacturing process and QA. And if you're planning on building your own factory over there, keep in mind that once the last screw goes into your factory, it immediately becomes the property of the People's Republic.

The better Chinese guitar springs, more then likely, from some poor sod who actually went in there and gave the store away. He's probably selling shoes right now wondering what the Hell happened to his business. The crappy guitars are from someone who understands the Chinese method and shared next to nothing accurate, and took what he got and dumped it for cheap, as he couldn't lose on his investment. Even if they ripped his designs they'll never compete with his indigenous product.

I speak from experience as a company I was working for in the 90's got burned by this shuffle. It's all sweetness and the World community starting out, but once they have all your dies, prints and manufacturing processes down all of a sudden your lead times expand, back orders become intolerable and the relationship becomes untenable. You sever ties a bit wiser in the ways of off-shoring your manufacturing.

Then, about 9-12 months later you see your designs surfacing without regard for copyrights and being sold for less then you can buy the raw materials. Slowly all your customers dry up as they can now buy these Chinese sub-assemblies for a fraction of what you sell them for. But your former customers don't care is it increases their profit margin, executive bonuses and now allows them to be "more competitive" in the marketplace.

The Chinese model of faster and cheaper, as has been mentioned before, is driving manufacturing out of China and into Viet Nam and other developing Asian countries not previously noted for their manufacturing prowess. Who do you think keeps the bulk of the profits on that arrangement? FYI, they ain't passing the saving along to the consumer...

But the Chinese are not solely to blame for this situation. Businesses in the US, and to a lesser extent, the EU, have spent way too much time on short term sales and profits to begin to understand the long term effect this shift in outsourcing will have on their economies down the road. It wasn't the average consumer that started this trend, it was the OEM's back in the 80's and 90's that opened the flood gates. The horse is now officially gone, so don't sweat the barn door.

Add to that the fact that the US owes so much money to China that the only way for us to ever hurt them is to shut down Wal-Mart. And the Chinese were even clever about that transaction as well. The Chinese government didn't make the loans, they sold shares to their people, so if America tanks it takes down a billion Chinese investors, rather then the government.

So, the lesson here is we all talk about supporting our indigenous manufacturing sectors, but we speak louder with our wallets by continuing to patronize these off-shore factories, as well as the multi-nationals that outsource to make higher returns to their shareholders, keep Wall Street happy and keep those healthy bonuses coming for their top executives.

So, buy from builders in your own country. Suck it up or don't carp about getting garbage from an off-shored manufacturer.

Well, that concludes this rant...but I'll probably have another one in an hour...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[4real]

That's a decent rant there C1...fair enough...

I'd go even further, it is the circle of history really, I'm no expert but it seems to me post WWII the USA dominated the markets of other countries pushing indigenous manufacturers to the wall (that isn't a slight in the USA, just an observation)...

Countries like Japan soaked up the cheap end of the market, developed technologies and manufacturing techniques...got a market share...now you have say guitar companies like Ibanez long making "law suit" guitars becoming quite expensive high end instruments and innovating and moving with the trends. It's even more striking with the car industry...

And so, it moves on and the next country develops much the same...china, korea, you name it. And everyone is on it, USA companies like Nike using child labour in this side of the world...consumers supporting the market...and as times get tough at home, this forces the consumer market down into the low end and so the money flows overseas and the local low end products can't be made (say in the clothing industry)...

So, I expect similar things in the near future, once the manufacturing is centralized over there and the industries in the consumer counties lose the ability to manufacture, so too will the prices and quality rise...

It's not a conspiracy just the nature of an addiction to market forces...and having no problem getting a bargain regardless of 'cost' in the long term or even immediately in the place of manufacture (like unsafe conditions, child labour, slavery, etc)...

...

However, there is potentially some "light" in something like guitars and we are already seeing it. There are makers who can make amazing instruments on a small scale in the USA, UK, Eu or Oz for example...better and cheaper than the big guys can do.

Perhaps the result will be the emergence of different models of manufacture and markets...already the internet is providing new models for distribution.

I was talking to someone today that if I knew someone with a sewing machine that was any good I'd pay them to make some clothes that fit and unique over buying some 'crap' from the stores for ridiculous prices and poor quality.

C1 is right, the horse has bolted and there isn't much use in complaining now, guitars are luxury items, look around at everything you buy and see how much is really sourced from home.

[newey]

I'll just quote Dylan, from about 25 years ago:

"Well, my shoes they come from Singapore
My flashlight's from Taiwan.
My tablecloth's from Malaysia
My belt buckle's from the Amazon.
You know, this shirt I wear comes from the Phillippines
And the car I drive is a Chevrolet.
It was put together down in Argentina
By a man makin' 30 cents a day."

"Union Sundown", by Bob Dylan

The rest of the song pretty much sums up this whole discussion . . .

[4real]

Haha....was Amazon around 25 years ago?

I'll raise you James McMurtry

www.jamesmcmurtry.com/we_cant_make_it_herelyrics.htm