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Post by murrayatuptown on Jul 25, 2009 3:04:05 GMT -5
Aside from some unexpected problems with my wiring and grounding mods, I am having a terrible time setting up low budget Strat project guitar. (Starcaster neck, body & hardware, Mighty-Mite
HSS prewired pickguard minus the pickguard(MM405
I went back to 9's from 10's, tightened the tremelo springs for the vintage tremelo bridge to rest against the body instead of float, and have the tremelo blocked (a 9 V battery and a feeler gage are a tight fit) until I get the setup correct again.
Initially I kept the high E string as I had added roller string trees and was trying to put the strings OVER instead of under them. It was fine for weeks after realizing that error
I'm back to breaking high E strings again today. (a 9 and a 10) It appears that sometimes the string doesn't increase in pitch as I'm tightening. I don't know if I'm not winding enough turns on the tuner post before applying string tension...?
It breaks at the tuner post, so I don't know if I shouldn't be bending it at a right angle, or should have more turns wound before tension is applied???
I've set neck relief per fender manual (0.010" at 8th fret with 1st and 22nd pressed. I've set the string saddle heights for string height = 0.062" at ... the 17th fret, IIRC. Pencil graphite in the nut slots. Intonation is pretty good, but one saddle doesn't want to move back toward the neck. (loose)
Tuners are the style that look like Gotoh's , chrome or nickle, a nut in front and a single pickup screw on the back, into the nrct..
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Post by newey on Jul 25, 2009 8:16:16 GMT -5
You shouldn't need a large number of turns, 4-5 should be sufficient. And too few may cause some slippage, but shouldn't cause string breakage like you are describing. It sounds like the 1st string tuner may be binding up somewhat. It is also possible that there is a sharp burr where the hole through the tuner post is. Cheap guitars come with cheap tuners. Most of the guitars I build are budget types, I'm the King of Cheap around here. And an upgraded set of tuners is always the first thing on my list of "To Do"s. After all, all the fancy pickups and electronics are just so much decoration if the guitar isn't at least decently playable. If it won't hold tune, it's just going to hang on the wall unplayed. Since the guitar is cheap to begin with, there's no merit in spending big bucks for a set of Klusons or Gotohs, but you can go to a sort of "mid-grade" set of tuners that'll be a vast improvement over the $10 cheapies that came with this guitar. I have used Wilkinson tuners on several builds. These can be had on the web for around $30 a set, and they have been a vast improvement over the stock ones on every guitar I've used them on. I also use the roller trees as you have done. So my advice would be to upgrade the tuners. But if you insist on sticking with the stock ones, try squirting a tiny bit of WD-40 into the offending tuner mechanism. There's usually a bit of space around the post where this can be done. You can also take the sharp end of a pencil, wrap a bit of sandpaper around the tip, and use that to deburr the hole, just in case that's the problem. Or, move up to 11s.  EDIT: BTW, is this a std Strat 25.5" scale? |
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 25, 2009 12:22:24 GMT -5
As newey indicates, the tuner posts may have a sharp edge around the string hole. This may be cleaned up with an over-size drill bit used as a counter-sink, but I'd go with the suggestion of better tuners. Don't go too far in rounding the hole edge as the tuner may not hold the string at all.
Some folk use a string turn overlap (a simple "friction knot") to help bind the string to the tuner.
I'm lazy and easily annoyed, so I just use locking tuners (which also helps with the constant string/bridge removal practiced by those with Compulsive reWiring Dementia). ;D ;D
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Post by lunaalta on Jul 25, 2009 14:24:17 GMT -5
Or, move up to 11s. LOL.... |
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Post by murrayatuptown on Jul 26, 2009 0:48:11 GMT -5
Ah, the clues * all make sense now... @^%# electronic tuner apparently has a mode for transposing instrument, or whatever purpose it serves. I talked to my kid's instructor today, and he specifically said 'a 4th off'...not an octave...that got me thinking...he reminded me to try a piano/keyboard for reference and not just trust the tuner. I can't describe what I thought when I found the low E was tuned to the 5th strings's A pitch, the A was tuned to D, the D to G, the B was an E, and the high e ain't never coming home after all the names I called it. What do you call this? A 'soprano' tuning? A 7-string-minus-one tuning? Ever heard of anything dumber? Oh wait, how about tuning my archtop strings 'left-handed' and realizing about 3 strings in that I had too many strings the same pitch...back when I was having trouble remembering EADGBE, not EBGDAE. * A friend commented the 10 string set felt heavier than his 10's, and they were harder to bend. (Duh, they were stretched tighter than a Phyllis Diller facelift). * Before the high E broke (each time), as I approached target pitch while tuning I would start to lose pitch proportional increase with increased tightening...I think the tremelo springs were 'kicking' in at that point... I dropped all those strings a 4th, and oh yeah, they do bend now... I think I'll double-check the tuners as mentioned for rough spots & I'll be good to finish setup. On to the hum problem next...which I didn't have with the stock pickguard and copper shielded body cavities. I'm still not comfortable with my separation of the humbucker (-) lead from the bare/drain/shield. I added push-pull pots for phase reversal on the middle and bridge, and series switching connections for Neck+Middle, N+M+Bridge coil tap and N+M+Full Bridge. I'm afraid having the coils 'floating' in series vs one-end-grounded presents a different opportunity for noise. Sensing the pickup sound differences is tricky...it isn't significant with a clean sound, but with 'Presence' and/or Post-gain (?) engaged on the amp I can hear some bigger differences. I can't reach my oscilloscope right now, so I put a DMM in ac mv mode to confirm pickup combinations (most made sense but not all). I take a piece of stainless steel shimstock and repeatedly toush and remove the SS from a pickup magnet. I can sense relative changes at eacparallel or seres combination.  |
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Post by murrayatuptown on Jul 26, 2009 22:52:24 GMT -5
OK, I turned it over to my daughter to try out. It is quiet, sounds good, but didn't turn out exactly as planned.
I have a couple mechanical setup questions, then some more description. I'll find a place to put photos and the INTENDED wiring diagram.
The old Fender manual I downloaded said 0.010" neck relief for a 9.5" radius neck. I wonder if the type of frets matters.
I had to raise the saddle height somewhat higher than instructed, and I wondered if it varies with frets. My frets are about 0.095" wide and 0.045-0.047" high (from the fingerboard).
With the 9's (GHS Boomer Lights) vs 10's (Korean Musicians' Choice from Guitar Center, 12 packs for $12 I couldn't resist and that foreshadowed this project), I'm not entirely pleased with the intonation. I have just been trying to do the 12th fret and open string checks. Someone told me to check all the frets and 'temper it'
by adjusting each string not at the 12th but where it needs it most. I haven't tried this yet.
Oh, yeah, the question - The low E seems sharp everywhere, at the 12th and playing a chromatic scale. If I have the action higher than it should be because the neck needs more relief for the frets this neck has, does this create a particular intonation trend? I was thinking that higher action might create an overall longer string length from nut to bridge tone block. The old Fender manual I downloaded told me a 9.5" radius neck gets 0.010" neck relief at some particular fret (I look it up, just can't remember now). I used a 0.010" thick business card.
I had a couple wiring errors. Pickguard was upside down, so I interchanged the Volume & Tone 1 pot wiring and got one backwards. It's pretty crowded with extra options and wired too tight to swap pot positions so I had to just swap the V + T knobs for now...Oh, well...I wanted it to be different from out-of-the-box ordinary.
I added a slide switch to allow 3 p/u in parallel and I have an unintended ground in my series wiring , as I apparently always have a minimum of two parallel P/U on the single coils.
The hum situation is solved but I still can't explain it fully, but it must have something to do with the 'extra' ground affecting the above. I was missing one and apparently have an extra...that's what those mistakes do, I guess.
I was able to ground the bridge with a 0.1 uF 250 vac MKP 'X-CAP' I pulled off a circuit board I was hoarding. It barely fits inside the tremelo spring cavity so I don't have to pull the pickguard in case I need to change it.
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Post by flateric on Jul 27, 2009 9:55:00 GMT -5
Sounds like you are having fun.
High action will send the intonation off a bit, you are having to sretch the string more to get it to touch a fret and this means it may sound a little sharper as it is tighter. But your first port of call should be your saddles to get the intonation as good as you can. I can never remember when sitting at the keyboard if the saddle needs moving back to make the string longer and get the 12th fret tone closer to the 12th fret harmonic, or if it needs shortening, but it is one or the other, that i'm sure of.
Neck relief and action are all related to fret height, its all about getting the strings as low to the frets as possible to play easy yet not snag or buzz. The three cannot be separated out.
Smaller fingerboard radius traditionally encourages a little higher action or the strings snag on other frets when / if you bend notes. Modern shred metal typoe guitars have nearly flat fingerboards and very low action compared to a '50's Tele.
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 27, 2009 11:38:24 GMT -5
Consider intonation adjustment thusly:
The nut to 12th fret distance will not change. The distance you must alter to set the proper intonation is the distance from the 12th fret to the saddle.
Setting the saddle closer to the 12th fret makes it go sharper, while setting it farther back makes it go flatter.
And yeah, my first bass had a burr on the tuning peg that caused some string breakage.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 27, 2009 17:55:06 GMT -5
OK, Jesse, you get a +1 for being short and sweet, as well as correct.  flat, I oughtta smite you, being a builder and all, and you still can't remember which way to move the saddle....  j/k!  Must be that the keyboard somehow erases all your expertise, or perhaps it's looking at the monitor for hours on end that's doing it, ya think? ;D murray, there are myriad circumstances to consider when setting up a guitar. First, that 0.010" is not a Final Answer, it's only a starting point. Second, that's too close, in my book, I thnk you're gonna suffer some "fret rattle" or some "choking out" as you bend strings in the upper fret area. Third, I don't play slide very often, but my experiences tell me that your axe will not be playable, if left at this setting. Even Roy Rogers and Sonny Landreth set their axes at about 0.030". (One of my local luthier friends is good buds with Landreth, and has built a guitar for the man. They play together whenever S.L. is in town.) Most folks that aren't pros set them even higher, if they're gonna use a slide. Might I humbly suggest that you search the innerwebs on the terms "guitar setup string height", and see what comes up. I think that once you get over the shock at seeing all that new information, you'll end up with a very nicely playing unit. ;D HTH sumgai |
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Post by flateric on Jul 28, 2009 2:58:00 GMT -5
I missed the bit about using the guitar to play slide? Slide guitars as Mr. S mentions, are set up with a really high action so you don't hit the frets, and normally you'd fit really low profile frets.
Gor for a set of 10's if you're still having string break issues and check for tiny sharp burrs on the tuner posts as per previous advice. R3member 10's mean you have to dial in a little extra tension in the truss rod to balance the pull of the strings. If you go back to a set of 9's you can ease it off again to preserve a little neck relief.
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Post by newey on Jul 28, 2009 5:00:32 GMT -5
Syd- SG promised you a +1 but then didn't give it to you.  I have corrected the omission. |
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 28, 2009 11:13:09 GMT -5
Hurrah!
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Post by sumgai on Jul 29, 2009 0:23:17 GMT -5
My Bad! I was in an extreme high-heat state at the time (and still am, for that matter), and the router gave out at just the critical moment. (It's been steadily moving up on the list of things to replace RSN.  ) Sadly, I didn't see the Exalt occur, but I figured that the innerwebs were being cantankerously slow, as usual. Since I was gonna shut down for the night anyways, I didn't take care to double-check.  Danke, newey! sumgai |
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Post by murrayatuptown on Aug 2, 2009 22:59:51 GMT -5
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Post by angelodp on Aug 4, 2009 21:07:10 GMT -5
Looks like a fun project. may i recommend a terrific book by Dan Erlwine.... How To Make Your Electric Guitar Play GreatThis book is full of great details and subtle changes that truly will make any guitar play better, and sound better. The chapter on re-working the bridge alone is a gem. Cheaper bridges can be made to operate and sound much better than their " from the manufacturer " condition. Little things like burnishing the nut and properly setting the screws on the bridge can really make a big difference in the guitar. IMHO its a great investment and can be applied to so many types of guitars and situations that its a ' gotta have ' reference book. Have you tried a small amount of sewing machine oil at the nut.... tiny amount. Also, a tiny bit of chapstick wax under the string trees ...... tiny. cheers A (EDITed by sumgai to make the link work just a wee tad bit better. ) |
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Post by flateric on Aug 5, 2009 6:45:30 GMT -5
+1 for any book by Dan Erlwine, anyone interested in guitars, playing, modding, building, collecting, teaching, selling, his repair and maintainance book is also an excellent investment.
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Post by D2o on Aug 5, 2009 10:33:51 GMT -5
+1 for any book by Dan Erlwine, anyone interested in guitars, playing, modding, building, collecting, teaching, selling, his repair and maintainance book is also an excellent investment. Agreed ... and it looks like you forgot the +1 to ange. Don't worry, I got it for you. Cheers, D2o |
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) Sadly, I didn't see the Exalt occur, but I figured that the innerwebs were being cantankerously slow, as usual. Since I was gonna shut down for the night anyways, I didn't take care to double-check. 
