finishing spalted maple

[dennyb2009]

I am building a 12 string electric and have acquired several book matched sets of spalted maple for the top cap . I will be using a slab of African mahogany for the body . How should I finish the cap ? The spalted set I chose is quite awesome as is , but I am wondering if any staining could be used to bring out the underlying tiger striped graining the maple . Or should I simply do the pore/ grain fill thing and let the natural nuttiness and color of the spalting shine through ? Also for the mahogany what colors besides the standard red and brown would work with the natural mahogany coloring ? I am a newbie when it comes to finishing so any input is greatly appreciated .

[gitpiddler]

Welcome Denny, y'all.
My vote is linseed oil. Dab it on & let soak, then hand rub, let sit, then wipe with a clean towel, but beware of piles of soaked towels, they tend to exotherm. Nice in demo work, not at home.
If possible, put 'em in front of a speaker, or even string it up and play it in. It crystallizes the oil, forming a rough surface for the next coat.
Repeat until smooth, then maybe a little wax after said playing it in and curing is achieved.
What sort of bridge are you planning? Run the strings thru the body with a fender- or rick-style 12-saddle adjustable, in brass maybe? ;D
If only 6-way, maybe keeping the smaller strings a tad higher than their larger partners might improve intonation problems, which are magnified on electric. This will bend them farther to the fret, adjusting the pitch up, as well as maybe stepping the smaller notches TOWARDS the neck to raise pitch.
I hate standard ACOUSTIC 12's that go horribly out on the high strings once they are broken in. I'm gonna try a thicker saddle on the home-built next to see about practicing what i preach.

RANT off--QUEST ON. piddly-on the side & listnin...

[dennyb2009]

Thanks but I had envisioned a high gloss finish for the beast .As for the bridge I'm liking the ghota for its ability to set hight and intonation for each string , 6 strings attach to the bridge and the other 6 ago through the body .

[gitpiddler]

I looked up the Gotoh (Ghota is a city in India). Now THAT'S what I'm talking about, but I wonder what is under the chrome? I like their suggestion of putting the octave tuners on the body for balance, but I'm skeptical of the tuning stability. Good luck Denny.

[dennyb2009]

Thanks It will undoubtedly take me a while but I will let you know and hopefully post some pix when I am done .
Yous got sumpin agin bridges built in India ? LOL
So much for spell check !

[dennyb2009]

B T W Does anybody have any alternative answers to my original finishing questions ?

[newey]

Or should I simply do the pore/ grain fill thing and let the natural nuttiness and color of the spalting shine through ?

That's what I would do.

Also for the mahogany what colors besides the standard red and brown would work with the natural mahogany coloring ?

I would leave that natural as well, it'll look nice up against the maple.

[ChrisK]

Ensure that the pieces chosen for the top are structurally sound or the maple will not add the usual bright effect of a maple cap..

Spalted wood is usually dead wood infected with fungi. Some versions of spalting result in decayed wood.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spalting

[cynical1]

To answer your finishing questions...let me ask a few more questions...

What type of final finish would you like to see? A mirror flat one or a matted textured one?

It makes a difference in how you approach the grain filling.

Grain filler, NOT wood fillers, can be useful on open grain woods, but tend to be counterproductive on burls or spalted wood...unless you can sand most of the deep imperfections out. Since they use a silica, or sand, component to fill the grain they can add a matte of milky appearance on deep fills.

You might do better by applying multiple coats of clear and sanding to achieve a smooth finish on spalted or burl woods. It depends on how much work you want to put into it.

On burls or spalted woods with vast irregularities I prefer a poly. It tends to fill faster then lacquer. Granted, lacquer is less work between coats, but it's more coats. If you really love to sand try some marine epoxy resin. This stuff goes on like old molasses and can take the bulk your children's formative years to sand, but it generally fills anything on two coats...and it ain't gonna chip, crack or peel...

And to address the issue with spalted wood being less bright, for this case and for softer woods you can apply a wood hardener.

Click Me!

This stuff is great on poplar, basswood, pine and plywood bodies...especially on the sides.

I would suggest applying your dye or stain first. And you may want to apply a sanding sealer before the stain depending on the color you're using.

This is pretty general information. If you have something specific I can probably steer you in a tighter course.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[dennyb2009]

Thank you so much for the great responsis ! I want a shiny mirror
finish . Does the marine varnish get brushed on ? Being as it is so thick I imagine that would be the case . How long between coats and how thick do I brush it on should I use ir ?
I was thinking polly for durability .
Denny

[cynical1]

Aug 31, 2009 21:49:46 GMT -5 dennyb2009 said:

I want a shiny mirror finish

Not a problem. Be prepared for a lot of clearcoats and sanding.

Does the marine varnish get brushed on ?

Yes. It cures very quickly and leaves a fair amount of brush marks. It's tough to sand but when it cures it's as hard a granite.

How long between coats and how thick do I brush it on should I use ir ?

Time between coats varies, but I always let it cure overnight before I began sanding. And yes, you need to sand smooth between each coat for the best finish. Very time consuming.

The thickness is determine by the pot life. You have about 15-20 minutes with what you mix before it becomes a hockey puck.

Not sure what ir is...

I was thinking polly for durability .

Poly is good. It's more labor intensive to get a mirror finish then lacquer, but it is tough stuff. BTW, you can buff and polish poly just like lacquer...it just takes longer.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[ChrisK]

Not sure what ir is...

It's the stuff that humans breathe; you know, the (a)ir supply.

[dennyb2009]

thank you one and all for the informative responses ( especially about what ir is LOL now if someone would remind me to always use spellcheck ) Along with several guitar repair projects , I am working on the basic design at the moment . So ,for now ,the actual finishing is a bit into the future . Still it always pays to plan ahead .

Again many thanks
Denny

[flateric]

I'm intrigued by the post that says put it in font of a speaker, or play it in to help crystallise the oil.
Oil doesn't crystallise. Oil is a long chain carbon molecule with a myriad of side groups that has no propensity to form a crystalline structure. Obviously if its work-in-progress you can;'t string it up and play it either.
Some alkyds like linseed will cross-link long chains together and you can catalyse that with dryers or the sureface will stay for ever greasy. How a speaker helps this sort of reaction is beyond me.
How playing it can help cure the oil is another mystery to me, I suspect this information is not based on chemical reality.
Spalted is dameged wood, beautiful and unique but fragile and can often tonally flawed too. It needs 'fixing', stabilising, so epoxy grain filler would be for me the best way forward for an instrument to improve the resonance of the wood, though spalted pieces are often just a cosmetic top cap and lend little character to the final tone..

[sumgai]

flatty,

There is a moderately sized school of thought that believes that you should "break in" the wood like you're gonna use it. IOW, you vibrate it with sound directed towards the piece, at some volume level, over a lengthy bit of time. In turn, this is supposed to "set" the fibers (or 'crystalize' them) in some kind of alignment that will ultimately lead to "Tonal Heaven".

At my age, I don't have the time left to me to try this out, but I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who is currently doing this, or at least seriously contemplating doing so.

HTH



sumgai

[gitpiddler]

Crystallize may not chemically describe the process, which is observable on top of the oil can after several years. That's my ears trying to describe a sound color which develops when a fresh coat first muffles the sound of the wood then loosens up as it dries. A heavy layer that's left sitting feels a little rubbery, but a thin, hand-rubbed layer on wood will fill the holes and dries pretty quickly.
It's not as tough as some finishes, but it sure lets the wood vibrate.

My acoustic 12 with burled walnut neck, pickguard, and body, App. red spruce top, and linseed finish is my most recent study case. I started finishing it on 9/11 as therapy and the burls provided plenty of that as I recall, and the strings were on it the whole time ;D

[JaegerGuitarFinish]

I use polyester base coat. Sand that perfectly flat then I use urethane top coat. It buffs out very nice has a deep look to the clear and is very durable. As far as dying the wood spalt can take dye in very different ways. The wood is very unpredictable. If you use a nice amber yellow dye it will bring out some of the figure and give it a warm golden yellow look. I personally like to just clear spalt or do a tobacco burst over it. I have finished hundreds of bodies with this kind of wood and every piece is different and has its own challenges.

[dennyb2009]

Well I have finally started the 12 string . After dreaming up and drawing a shape that is not too Stratty or Paulish , I cut out a mock up from 3/4 " melamine , screwed a neck on it ,and showed it to my friends to get their "narrow minded " opinions on the general shape .
After wiping my tears and shaking off their derisive laughter and downright hurtful remarks I made modifications to my brilliant design and tried again .
I have now made a full scale mock up from M D F and 1/4 " birch ply ( 2 layers =1 1/2 thick = 1/2 " cap and back ) I carved reliefs into the upped back ( ala Fender ) and at the neck between the horns to thin it up , dished out the body to make it semi hollow ( Like a Rick ) glued on the birch plywood top and added a D ( as in Denny ) hole , Added white plastic binding ( practice for the real thing ) screwed on the neck , and painted the body and stained the top.
Rave reviews and offers to purchase the Masonite monster ! LOL
NOW FOR THE QUESTION ? Do I , after hollowing out the mahogany body cavity , seal it on the inside before I add the spalted maple top ? I will be leaving a substantial solid chunk down the middle for support and tone . Should I hollow out anything between the pups routing or behind the bridge ? or is it best , tone wise to leave that area solid ? I am going to install piezos under the bridge and in the neck pocket , in addition to using G F retro-tron type humbuckers and an ARTEC M B 1 master blender controller for the piezos and mags . Would you recommend shielding the control and pup cavities ?
Should I post pix of the Masonite monster ? It has no bridge or pups , as I don't think the Masonite neck pocket would support a neck under tension . LOL ( though I must admit I am tempted to put on some cheap Chinese pups and a flee market neck just for craps and giggles )

[newey]

Should I post pix of the Masonite monster ?

Absolutely!

I must admit I am tempted to put on some cheap Chinese pups and a flee market neck just for craps and giggles )

Why not, you've already done most of the hard stuff as it is. And, it would be the Nutz thing to do!

Also, once you finish the identical actual mahogany one, you could do a Masonite vs. Tonewood head-to-head comparison to settle the "Tonewood" debate definitively. ;D

And, yes, I would seal the inside as well, help keep moisture out. And I'd leave behind the bridge solid.

[lpf3]

denny-

This guy's using an interesting mix of a Tele & a Les Paul......

www.iaguitars.com/

I like the Goldtop on the second page of his gallery.........

If this helps, this is how I chambered my soon-to-be-Thinline.




I would have left the part behind the bridge solid, but after planing off the top I found these holes already there- & throughout the rest of the body also.

I don't have an opinion yet as to sealing the inside before putting on the top- I notice that the inside of my other hollow bodies are raw wood ( I think ) So I don't know how important (if at all) this is.

Keep us posted on your build- Lot's o' pics- I think I'll be lookin' to you for pointers, especially on that whole arch carving part.

-lpf3

[cynical1]

That's how I would have chambered the body. Personally, I like as much beef as I can get down the middle of a semi-hollow-body. I wouldn't get too fast and loose with the router.

One thing you might want to route in are the wireways for the pickups and the bridge ground if your going with a back cavity access to the controls.

Normally, the inside of the semi-hollow body guitar is not finished. Over time a certain amount of oxidation will occur and the color of the wood will change. Unless you're planning on using it as a oar you should be fine leaving it unfinished.

As far as the curved top, I saw this take on a carved top recently and thought I'd share.



And please, after all the work you're going to put into this guitar, don't go cheap at the end. A cheap neck makes a guitar unplayable and strips all the fun out of it.

Keep us posted on the pictures.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[dennyb2009]

Thank you all for your responses . I an leaning towards sealing the inside with clear laquer . I am going to make the access to the control cavity in the back I will use a 1/32 " inlay bit to cut it out of the back so that the cover plate is the actual body wood . I did this with a 1/16 bit in the masonite monster but I don't like the gap so I will downsize on the real thing .
Now ... Should I sheald the control cavity ?
I have the neck made allready , I put abalony bird inlays ( ala PRS ) in the neck I just wish I had put bindings ( now that I know how easy it is ) on the neck before I installed the frets . I am going to overlay some tigerstripe maple veneer on the head stock and finish the end with a rosewood D .
How do I post photos ? can I transfer them from flickr some how ? or from my photo album on my computer ?
I wish I had done step by step pics as I worked on the masonte I will defenately do that for the mahogant / spalted maple version .
I hollowed it out much like the above pic using forstner bits for hoging out the bulk , a router to clean it up and level the bottom and chisles to finess the curved relief upper part opposite of the relieved upper back .

Another question .... Would I get better tonal response if I made the pup cavities the exact depth and skipped the spring adjustment thing screwing then solidly to the body ?
I have retroed threddid inserts into the necks and machine bolts for a really solid neck mount on several of my guitars and noticed a tonal dif on them . I am wondering if that would translate to the pups as well ?
I will also be using thredded inserts for the bridge as I don't think wood screws into or through the spalted top would be too sound .
Sorry to ramble on like that but I tend toward the stream of conscious thing !

Thanks
Denny

I can tunna fish but I can't tune my cats !

[newey]

Denny-

Image Posting

Basically, since Proboards doesn't support image hosting (unless we pay for it), you need to upload images from your drive to an online photo-hosting site. Most of us use photobucket. I don't know whether Flick'r will work.

You will get more sustain screwing the pups into wood, but it's a trade-off, you lose some lightness, the pups tend to sound a bit "chunkier" directly screwed in. It's a matter of taste, mostly.

Since you're using humbucker-type pups, shielding may not make a huge difference. But it won't hurt, and it's easier to do it from the ground floor than once you get it all put together.

[cynical1]

Feb 1, 2010 23:05:18 GMT -5 dennyb2009 said:

I an leaning towards sealing the inside with clear laquer .

Are you sure you want to make the cavity that bright? (as in acoustically reflective) Have you considered possibly using linseed oil to protect the wood? This can be steel wooled to a dull finish, thereby preserving more of the natural acoustics. Just a thought...

Either way, make sure you protect the seams where the body halves are glued together from contact with any finish you apply to the inside.

Now ... Should I sheald the control cavity ?

I seem to recall a long discussion of a Faraday box for this type of application. You might want to peruse 2 Strat pups & Gibson switch in a Dano-shield? for some insight into this option.

Another question .... Would I get better tonal response if I made the pup cavities the exact depth and skipped the spring adjustment thing screwing then solidly to the body ?

The fact that the pickups are screwed into the body will improve your tone, in my mind, over using a pickguard...but opinions vary...and I like a darker tone anyway...

I would think long and hard about only routing to the exact depth of you current pickup selection. Several reasons here:

- What if you change pickups down the road? Do you want to re-route once the finish is on the body?

- What if you change hardware? Will a new bridge/tailpiece/whammy match perfectly with where your pickups are located?

- What if you have to shim the neck? No adjustment either way might be a bad thing.

- Or what about changing strings? Will their location accommodate a different string gauge without a tweak?

I generally make my pickup routes deeper then I need and just use springs or tubing to make up the tension. I also take foam pipe insulation and cut it down to go under the pickup to keep it level.


And the threaded insert idea is cool. Might be more work then you need to go through, but if you feel motivated then go for it.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[dennyb2009]

I am looking for that bright Rickenbacker 12 string tone , so maybe the solid mount thingy is not the best way to go . There will be no pick guard .but on the other hand ( 4 fingers and a thumb ) I don't see a real problem with having to rout the pup cavities lower at some future time as the neck is a bolt on and the face of the guitar will be flat and can be covered . As for the threaded inserts whats the big deal I've taken this long to bring this project on line , the time it will take to install inserts will , no doubt be less than the time it will take me to figure out how to up load photos of the damn thing ! LOL Besides I like the fact that the pup and bridge screws can be cranked relatively tight just like the neck .
As for stringing up the Masonite monster ....any suggestions as to reinforcing the neck pocket ? I really think the screws would pull through or the whole pocket break off pretty quickly under tension . After all the material is nothing more than 1 inch of high pressure cardboard !