2 HBs - endless possibilities.

[sydsbluesky]

Okay, I got an experimental guitar for cheap. My buddy got one of these, and did a pup switch and a tuning head switch and called it

"a full custom machine. I'm gonna sign it so people know it's my design and can't copy it."

He put in a SH-2 jazz and a dimebucker... Didn't even add a push/pull pot!

Edit: It's a dean vendetta. Great reviews on the Straightness of the Neck.

Not that I wanna one-up him, but...
I'd like to three up him, but I can't do it alone... I could one, or mabe two up him alone, but that's not what I want!

It has two humbuckers, a volume, a tone and a 3way. This can change.
I'm open to removing/replacing whatever. Perhaps a concentric pot to free up one of the three holes and add some roto stuff... even adding a 5way, or an on-on-on or two. I'm game.

I'm using a '59 in the neck - favorite humbucker of which I happen to have a spare - and a JB in the bridge - least favorite humbucker of which I happen to have a spare.

Wish List:

Normal 3way options
-outer coil splits for each HB.
-series/parallel options - I'd like as many combinations as possible with this.
-phase options
-minimal accidential bumping. I'd like to be able to navigate Neck pup to Bridge pup and the splitting of these as easily as possible. Phasing and series/parallel can take a little fiddling as long as I can get my buckers switched and split with relative ease.

Pretty standard stuff, I guess, but I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around some of these diagrams, here... and not many seem to be dedicated to 2HB 1vol 1tone 3way. Or, perhaps to be thought of as 2HB + 3 holes and a drill.

I've never gotten into phasing and series/parallel, but I know my way around a soldering iron, if not a wiring schematic...

Since I've never personally done any of this, and this is an experimental guitar, I'd love to get as many options as possible. Just to hear 'em!

I'm talkin' some P.T. Barnum kinda ____.

I appreciate what I'm sure is going to be a flood of input on this, and I hope that you guys can excuse my lack of knowledge with some of this stuff. It's just that I've worked with it before. I'm a quick study, I have access to 1 598 GuitarNuts and a blank canvas. Let the Tones begin!


Jesse

[sydsbluesky]

Did a little more digging, and I'm liking a wiring design on the duncan site, that uses a 5 way super switch for the splitting and pup selection. It seems to be a very intuitive splitting system.

Now, I really fail to understand some of this, but if I use concentric pots for tone and volume, and then use the 5 way super switch wired to outter (screw) coil splitting, then I would only have phase and series/parallel to work in.

I'd like to leave this super switch split/pup selection module in tact if possible.

Okay, so for the series/parallel, I'd like to use just one hole in the guitar. Roto, whichever. I'm not sure how to wire it up.

For the phase, I'm not sure if it would be better to throw the buckers out of phase, or to try to split them to the screw coils and then throw them... That may make the super 5 way splitting difficult, right?

I'm gonna keep reading...

[wolf]

Hello sydsbluesky

Well I guess you deserve a reply from someone here.

First of all, if you want series / parallel switching or coil cut, you need to have humbuckers with 4 wires coming out of them. If your guitar is straight from the factory, the odds are extremely remote that they will have 4 wires. Is it possible to rewire those humbuckers with 4 wires? Sure, but look at the instructions here:
www.1728.com/guitar1a.htm
It's not exactly something that can be easily done.
When you do get 4 wires attached to both humbuckers, then you can plan your complex switching.
Not to influence you, but again, at my website, here is a rather versatile switching arrangement with 2 Humbuckers and 5 switches.
www.1728.com/guitar5.htm
Not enough variety for you? Well, here's a wiring option with 7 switches:
www.1728.com/guitar6.htm

[sydsbluesky]

Yeah, I'm using two duncan pups for this.

I was actually just looking at your site, oddly.

Problem I'm having, is that the 5 way is that it doesn't appear to have the coil cutting I'd like to get.

And for series/parallel, I'm trying to make it more intuitive than what I'm seeing.... Maybe this isn't the best choice. I think I can keep it very simple (simple enough for live play, since... that's sorta why I do this) and still get a few options.

Revised goals:

Splitting/selection of the pups with the 5 way super switch
phasing between the buckers with a single switch.. DPDT, right?
series/parallel within the neck pickup with a second switch
concentric vol/tone pots.


I'm looking at the way the super is wired and I can do that.
I'm looking at the way the phase is wired, and I can do THAT.
I can handle wiring the neck pup to series/parallel toggle.

I don't know exactly how to put it all together, though.

In what order do I put them? I also plan on adding an EMG AB to use to work out any volume problems with splitting and the like, and to run at low impedance. That goes right before the 1/4, still, right?

Thanks, Wolf. I was kinda hoping there would be a little more input on this...

[JohnH]

Sydbluesky - for your 5-way, are you thinking of routing for an actual 5-way lever switch? or would it be a rotary 5-way?

I built some roiary 4 pole 5-way switches into this:
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=nutzoid&action=display&thread=3773

Where I used them to get 5 tones out of each pickup, which is 3 more than I actually use!

The issues I have with these switches are that a 5-way rotary can be quite hard to tell excatly where it is when playing - so a good pointy knob is needed, instead of a round one. The Australian maker Maton uses a long horizontal level fixed into the side of a round knob to make it easier, which works quite well.

The other issue with them is that there is limited thread length. I was OK with these on my build, from Mouser, but the body of this LP copy was quite thin, I think the shaft went through about 6mm of surface wood, but could not go through more, and have the nut done up, without routing. Mounting to a pickguard is fine.

Anyway, whether its a 5-way lever or rotary, the circuitry could be the same.

So heres a suggestion:

For each pup, just have a simple toggle for full series humbucker or single coil. Mini-toggles are easy to fit in a 1/4" hole, and are very positive to flick. You could alternatively use on-on-on minitoggles to get series/single/parallel of each pup. But I find these too fiddly to use, and i dont care for the parallel setting, though others prefer it.

So pickup, to toggles, then to 5-way. You could use 3 of your 4 switch poles to pick 5 out of the 6 ways of connecting two pickups which are, each single pickup, both in series in or out of phase, both in paralel in or out of phase. To pick 5, probably drop one of the out of phase settings, probably the parallel one.

You have one pole left on the 5-way. If you go with just simple 2 position toggles to get series/single, you can use that spare pole to direct which bridge coil is cut by the toggle, so that if you pick two single coils out of phase, its still humcancelling as for in phase.

Follow all that with standard volume and tone.

There is a kick-butt design lurking there that will blow your mates guitar away!

John

[wolf]

And if you haven't been bombarded enough with websites, diagrams, etc , here's a link to a "2 Humbucker" wiring discussion we had about 4 months ago:
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=4095&page=1

and here's the result of that discussion (post #37):


This circuit diagram yields series / parallel/ coil cut for each of the pickups and when both coil cut switches are active, the circuit is humbucking. Also, when both humbuckers are active, they can be in series or in parallel.

IMPORTANT: The colors in the above diagram are based on DiMarzio wire colors.
**************************************************
Edited this post to add this diagram based on Seymour Duncan wire colors.

[sydsbluesky]

John - Issue 1

I'm thinking blade style if possible. Ease of use is very high on my priority list, and if I'm going to be putting it on something that I'll actually be using quite often - being not only the method of splitting, but also the only method of switching pickups - then I want it to be as user friendly as possible...

That having been said, I hadn't even considered that the body will be too thick. I'm pretty handy with a dremel, so I don't plan on letting that become an issue.

I had planned to use the 5 way in this manner:

1 - Screw coil (outside) neck
2 - neck pup
3 - N and B pups
4 - bridge pup
5 - screw coil (outside) bridge

Looking at the SD site, this is similar to theirs... They have 1 and 2 switched and 4 and 5 switched. Should be easy to move those around.

Then again, the chicken knobs on a roto would be much harder to accidentally move during a song... GAH!

Okay, I'll resolve that later.

I just realized what that is... It's STRAT wiring, but with humbuckers and the "tele tone" in 3rd position! Funny how that works. Anyway...

Issue 2

It's back to the 5 way, I guess. I'd like to keep everything as simple as possible, as this is not just a guitar I will play, but also one that will be used as a humbucker backup for live by the other guitarist.

...I guess that needs more info... When we play live we each pack a single coily and a humbuckery. I use a strat I built with EMG SAs and my frankenbucker old model ESP (Their new models are horrible!) He uses an old tele and an ibanez. So we have a LP as a backup with bucker in the neck and a p-90, and this as a backup with its bucker/single capabilities.

Now, this is where the series/parallel on the neck only comes into play, since I want convincing, if not absolutely sincere reproduction of both single and bucker sound on that pickup. I plan to use an EMG afterburner to even out the volume issues with this, but it all has to be as easy as possible to work out without much briefing... One of those nifty PRS wiring setups, or the very similar Taylor blade setups isn't going to be ideal for this guitar, just by its nature and use... and the... well, I'm not going to insult my bandmate, but for a very highly ranked competitive gamer, you'd think guitar switching would be easy.

So... I feel that I just gave the "long" version. Call me Iron Butterfly, but I just seem to like the long versions better.

Now... This process has really been as much about asking the right questions, as it has getting answers initially.

I have a few on-on toggles. Can I wire one to toggle the buckers IP/ooP with each other (presumeably this will be inactive when the blade/roto isn't in 3rd position?) and the other to toggle the neck pup between series/parallel?

Simplicity is the name of the game, here. In my project, if not in my post.

One pot for vol/tone
One blade to the coil toggling
small black switch for series/parallel on neck pup
small chrome switch for N - B phase
small black knob for active electronics to match volume.

Hopefully this all fits...

That's a darn fine job on the LP, by the way. I'm a sucker for active 'lectronics... even though I use a 678958698 FX-units-in-one setup live. (saves money on those fancy schmancy cables)


Okay!



Wolf - I see you've worked with the Dean Vendetta - and in the same color, too - did you have to do any routing on that? I see you fit a great deal of hardware onto that guitar.

One thing I'm trying very hard to avoid here is using the same switch to toggle series/parallel and coil cuts.


I appreciate the input, guys. This forum gives me a comfy, cozy feeling that no matter how ridiculous I try to make something, there is always someone that has been there ten times before.

[newey]

SBS-

DPDT, right?

Yes.

I have a few on-on toggles. Can I wire one to toggle the buckers IP/ooP with each other (presumeably this will be inactive when the blade/roto isn't in 3rd position?)

DPDT, right?

Pick either the neck or bridge HB as the one for the phase switch. It doesn't matter which one except for possible wiring/fitment issues.

In positions 1,2,4 and 5, there is only one pickup selected (and sub-selected as full or SC). The phase switch will be operable in these positions, in that it will reverse the phase of the affected pickup coil or coils. But you won't hear any difference because there is no other pickup for it to be OOP with.

Unless you are talking about phasing between the coils of each HB- which I don't believe you are.

and the other to toggle the neck pup between series/parallel?

Are we talking about putting the 2 coils of the neck pickup in series vs. parallel, or of putting the neck in series or parallel with the bridge?

[JohnH]

Im assuming you mean the the series/parallel on the neck is just between the neck coils? If so, and if it is to get close to a single coil pup, are you sure you want that given that you also have the actual single neck coil available on the 5 way? I can see difficulties mixing the toggle control of the neck coils with the 5-way also doing coil cutting, leading maybe to dead spots or odd settings. (Im just guessing, not sure)

Also, with your arrangement, you would miss out on settings that mix singles from each pickup with the other pup- is that OK?

BTW Last night at our gig, I played my real LP, which has just the basic Hb sounds plus coil cut on each pup. I found that a parallel mix of Neck single coil and bridge Hb was just right for a Beatles rythm tone, and everything else was bridge HB. I liked that it was a simple set up, theres enough to think about while playing!

John

[sydsbluesky]

Yes on the toggles.

Also yes on the phasing.

And again on the parallel, but on that... I've never toyed around with series/parallel. I don't know how they sound, but I DO know that I keep hearing that parallel internally on a bucker will sound very much like a single, but not quite the same.

I'm assuming I'll prefer one over the other, but never know. I'm going to give it a shot.

And yeah, I'm fine not mixing singles with the bucker. I have a Gibson LP deluxe with a stock mini and a p-90 (for now) And it's not a sound I like. I always find myself wanting either more singly or more buckery sound when I mix them. It's very much how they label it.

So... If I can't get the series/parallel inside the neck humbucker, then I could do the same with neck/bridge, I suppose... but only as a backup plan.

What sort of sound could I expect from that?

I can try to check out the paths and look for problems as you described, but I doubt I'll have much luck... Any reference material you could throw at me to get me started? The guitar won't even BE here for a few days, so I have time to read.

Oh, and what do you usually use for the star ground for the QTB? I tried a washer last time and didn't like it one bit.

And yeah, keeping stage tone simple is great. What Beatles song were ya doing?

Honestly, I don't think I'm gonna use much of this stuff on stage, but until I have the option, who knows, right? It may only be used in the studio, but I want it set up for live play either way. Nothing feels worse than hitting a wrong pedal, or flipping the wrong switch at the wrong time, and having to work it out in the middle of the song...

I had a wall wart fall out once. My pedal had battery life, so it SHOULDNT have been a big deal, but for SOME REASON it reverted to its physical settings instead of staying in memory mode... 30 something knobs is too many to keep track of, and it was set to something like... acoustic simulator with fuzz face and delay... *cough* Not having seen the wall wart fall, I was totally shocked, and had to duck out of half of a chorus diagnosing and fixing the problem, since I had to scroll with my hand to page 2 or 3 on the memory bank settings on the pedal (boss ME-50.)

*sigh*

[newey]

I keep hearing that parallel internally on a bucker will sound very much like a single, but not quite the same.

Well, it will be hum-cancelling, for starters. The SC may add a bit of noise.

My Esquire-ish guitar has a dual-rail HB at the bridge, and I have the 3-way switch set for SC/parallel/series. The difference between the SC and parallel is very subtle, the SC is a tiny bit "squawkier". But the difference is very small. Run a bit of distortion in the mix and you wouldn't tell them apart.

However, the 2 "rail" coils on that pup are both tiny and very similar. More dissimilarity between the coils would yield more variance.

If I can't get the series/parallel inside the neck humbucker,

Why can't you? If they're 4-conductor pickups, one of your DPDT switches would take care of that, as in wolf's diagram above.

[sydsbluesky]

Singles on the outer edges is a sound I like, and if the variation between a split and a parallel is even a small bit different, then Ill take it. We play almost as much clean as we play dirty live, so it'll get plenty of everything in time.

Only question that remains is can it be wired the way I want it...

Oh, and as far as hum I can live with that. The Boss pedal is a wonderful product in my experience, and both the compressor and the noise gate are of acceptable quality. I've never had a noise issue, even with my "hot" p-90 on the LP and no shielding of any kind.


PS - does anyone else see the irony that I'm now a "senior switch wirer" yet begging for scraps of info on wiring switches? *sigh*

Learning curves are! ; ;D

[JohnH]

Aug 30, 2009 22:30:22 GMT -5 sydsbluesky said:

What Beatles song were ya doing?

It was 'I saw her standing there' (she was just 17...etc). it was a blast, me singing too, and got the ladies in the room to help go 'waaaaaaaaa....!'

Meanwhile, back at the important business of series/parallel wiring. Suppose for example, you select neck single on the 5 way, and flick the neck series/parallel switch, what should then happen? should it go to parallel, or stay as a single? I think it could work out OK where the parallel mode on the toggle overrides the single-coil mode on the 5-way- the only way to check it to try to draw it.
John

[sydsbluesky]

Good song, and it's always nice when the audience pulls their weight.

I still have a dream one day of being in an English speaking band... Not that a Japanese band isn't cool and all, but I want very much to cover Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love lol.

Ahem!

Well, I wasn't thinking that it would override position.. 1? 5? Do you count from the neck back? Anyway, I was planning on only going to parallel in the instance that the entire bucker was in on the action, such as is position 2, we'll call it. but either way works for me just as well. I almost like the override more, actually.

[wolf]

I modified post #5 to add a diagram based on the Seymour Duncan wire colors.

[ChrisK]

wolf,

I think that the design should be posted in the schematics thread as a design. Having both the DiMarzio as well as the Duncan colored designs wouldn't hurt (for those befuddled by logic).

I do however, have the following suggestions.

Also, when both humbuckers are active, they can be in series or in parallel.

When in parallel, the SPDT center-ON switch selects between either pickup or both (as on a normal LP).

When in series, the SPDT center-ON switch is overridden as series requires both pickups.

I would also add a DPDT switch for neck phase reversal between the neck DP3T ON-ON-ON switch and the inter-pickup series/parallel switch.

Furthermore, I would add notes to indicate that the DP3T ON-ON-ON switch wiring can be effected on a push pull pot for intra-pickup series/parallel. I might also add a wiring module showing series/single coil in lieu of the intra-pickup series/parallel.


With these additions, it also covers the optimized Page LP mods.

[ChrisK]

and a JB in the bridge - least favorite humbucker of which I happen to have a spare.

What don't you like about it?

Why don't you tune it with a $0.10 cap?

Pickup Coil Response Tuning

[sydsbluesky]

Too thin, but without the cool, hot sound I want to get from the bridge.

Just don't like it. Favorite thing I've found for a bridge is the duncan SP90-2.

It's a taste issue, I suppose.


While I'm here... The guitar will be here tomorrow, along with the megaswitch I went ahead and ordered.

Been busy... I'm going to get a setup of the switch and see if I can try to draw it up and follow the path.

[ChrisK]

Too thin, but without the cool, hot sound I want

Does "thin" mean too bright?

What does "cool, hot" mean? Is that like a little big?


Pickup Coil Response Tuning


Tuning a pickup with a small value parallel cap will lower the frequency response band and make it sound warmer (or in your vernacular, maybe cooler).

[sydsbluesky]

Too thin - it's a thin sound. Very treble oriented in my opinion. Bright can be thick (with some bass in the mix as well) and bright can be thin (treble and that's it. Just... treble.) This bright is thin.

Cool - appealing to the ear.

Hot - I'm not sure what to say... it seems hard to explain if someone doesn't know it when they hear it.


...at least in my vernacular.

A little big. Is this feet? Inches?


When I look for one of them there hot puppies, I wanna toss it in and get that rad, thick sound. This pup is like hanging five on a weak board. I want something I can sink an ear into, ya know? My SP90-2 gives me a B.A. kinda of tone, like it has some MEAT to it, ya dig?

No.


For a neck pickup I want something smooth, but well rounded so that it can be used for everything I want to play, which is a little bit of everything.

When Gibson puts "rhythm" and "lead" on their little plastic plate, they're pretty accurate with their adjectives. For a bridge pickup, I like to put in something that I'm going to use for a solo, or a lead sound. "Lead" would imply to me that it leads and the song follows. For this to happen, means that the tone has to stand out more against the song. Usually means mid/treble. "Solo" is pretty clear. It's a guitar solo. It's there as a high point of the guitar line, and is supposed to be REALLY there.

The JB doesn't do this. It doesn't have any more punch (to punch through the mix) than the '59 neck pickup. For something sold as a "hot" pickup, it's not very hot. It's thin. Lame. Flaccid.

Adding a cap won't give me anything I need. When I need a little warmth I look for my neck pickup.

Qualitative observation is...?
(usually requiring borderline verbosity.)


NOW, if you'd like to give me a hand with the wiring... I'm all ears!

[sydsbluesky]

So the guitar is here, and I'm getting started on some of the body work before I go to the wiring.

First things first, I gutted it. Pickups out, tuning heads off, and all the electronics in the trash.

Took the tone-o-matic style bridge off, and flipped over the guitar... hrm... the post for the bridge fell out! This won't do!

Got two tubes of super glue and pulled out both pegs and all 12 of the string ferrules and super glued them all in. I removed the truss rod cover and taped off the nut to hit the headstock with some flat black spray paint. Just flipped the truss rod cover over when I put it back in. Just black plastic, now. Pulled out the buttons and put in the schaller strap locks I use on all my guitars.

Got out the dremel and made my opening for the 5 way blade switch. Looking right now for something to use as a cover for the hole that it's leaving behind, but that won't be hard.

Put in the '59 and the JB pickups, and shoved the wires through.


I got ahold of a guitar with a Jazz model (SH-2) in the neck wired with the option for both single and parallel. I prefered the single quite a bit, so I think I'm going to simplify the idea a little more. I'm going to wire it with the 5 way blade, the concentric pot and a toggle to control phase. Wiring will begin tonight!

[eadgber]

sydsbluesky

I can endorse the wiring that Wolf posted in repley #5.

The guys here worked it out for me and it made for a very versatile 2 humbucker guitar, even with just one volume and one tone control.