Carved Top

[ijustwannastrat]

(edit: moved to Lutherie by sumgai)


How would you carve a guitar top (from scratch) with out a router? If there isn't a GOOD way, how would you suggest going about it with a router?

[gitpiddler]

Prolly belongs in lutherie ;D
I've tried a chisel, but find that using a knife works best
Seriously, that's why I like an oil finish. You can carve after assembly and listen to the changes in tone as you go. You'll be amazed how the sound changes especially cutting around the cutaways, bridge, and edges. Then just re-oil the spots, they blend right in. This method has kept me fascinated for years

[cynical1]

When you say "carve"...just exactly what type of carving are we talking about?

Are we talking about carving an arched top? Or changing the cutaways? Or is this some proposed experiment in free art?

[ijustwannastrat]

I'm sorry, I ment a carving an arched top. Also, sorry about wrong board, I must have been tired.

Thanks for the info, gitpiddler. When you say changes tone, what do you mean? Also what type of knife are you using?

[cynical1]

An option for carving an arched top would be to use scrapers...



Like these. Stew-Mac sells them here, but a little time researching on-line should reveal a few more vendors.

There is a learning curve to using these, but it's not impossible. If you're going to practice find a piece of wood of the same species as your guitar/bass body. Different wood scrape/shave differently.

This is time consuming. A wood chisel, rasp or Dremel tool first, then scrapers are a better method. And besides, you'll never get a good arch with a router anyway.

Have fun, measure twice, cut once...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[ijustwannastrat]

So to clearify, the best method would be to use my Dremel tool to get an approximate curve, then use those stainless steels scrapers to get the final arch?

[cynical1]

For the two arched tops I've done that's how I did it. I'm sure there are a few purists out there that would wince, but once the finish goes on no one knows the difference.

Make sure to mark your depth on the sides before you start wailing away. Making a cardboard template of the arch before you start will allow you to mark the lowest, middle and highest point of the arch. And TAKE YOUR TIME. You dig too far on one point on the body and the whole arch profile has to change to match it.

Even with the Dremel tool the scrapers are a slow process. Sanding is also an involved part of the process. All in all it's nice when it's done and your fingers get a nice workout.

In all honesty, I think the size of the soybean crop in Indiana has about the same effect on tone that arching the top of a solid body has...but it sure looks cool when you're done. Remember that depending on how far you take the arch a standard tailpiece is out unless you route the mounting position flat. A Gibson style is preferred, so make sure your neck has the same radius to match your bridge at that point.

I would also suggest looking at adding some binding to the top of the body. Make a deeper route along the outside of the body while it's flat and carving down to it will make the binding job easier...like you need the extra work, but it does really set off the carving on the top when it's finished.

Have fun, measure twice cut once.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[gitpiddler]

1. Practice on a scrap piece of the same type (figured maple?) of wood.
2. Smooth, sharp tools are essential. Scrapers are good, too (thanks cyn).
3. I was thinking more about necks, solidbodies. Start with one you don't worry about screwing up. Arched tops are master class stuff.
4. Take the Parts-o-caster. Say the treble cutaway is a little small for your hand to comfortably hit high notes, you wanna shave the side off a little here, but then you have to blend the curves around it to match. Make the end a little pointier it will resonate the highs differently. Same goes for the heel under the neck. If the sound is heavy on the bass plugged in, you can take a little off the bass side cutaway and it'll take some of the thump out of the tone.
Around the neck joint and the bridge is where you hear the biggest difference, but the former is where your working hand will feel it ;D
5. What you hear acoustically eventually makes it thru the pickup and colors the overall tone.Listen to the sound as you play after taking a little off the body,especially the high transients, no amp required. You will be AMAZED. Then re-oil that spot and listen then. Play it hard for a while and compare. Experiment with that for a while.
6. You'll never look at a guitar the same way. The art is in the combining tones produced by EACH part into a balanced tuning fork, and sending THAT signal to an amp, which will influence the feedback, sustain, and response. Small changes in the acoustic tone are magnified thru an amp.
Carve a little, listen a lot. Observe the top of a PRS at the cutaways. The edges created resonate the high frequecies. Think of a ping pong ball bouncing under the paddle as you close the gap, or a digital delay as you decrease the gap. You can turn the dullest sounding piece of wood into a songbird, but you have to be able to hear it as you play. Listen as the sound flows from the strings to the ends of the cutaways.
7. Apply your new body shape to another piece of wood. They're never the same, but remarkably similar. THAT'S what drives all the different styles of builds.
Smoke break, more later....Bang on

[ijustwannastrat]

So I thought I'd use my Grandfather's (god bless) carving set to get a feel on this whole thing. I've got tons of scraps of maple (nothing really useable), so I've been trying to get hold on it. Which way do I carve? With the grain, or against? I've been using this type of blade www.woodcraft.com/Product/2001825/1305/PFEIL-Swiss-Made-Scorp--PFEIL--Swiss-Made.aspx and going AGAINST the grain seems to be working best.

I'm completely bewildered, because I've always been told do EVERYTHING wood-wise with the grain. Cutting (when possible), sanding, staining.

Anybody got experience with this?

EDIT: Thought I would throw this in, they still sell the EXACT same set as my grandfather bought 25+ years ago... www.xacto.com/ProductDetail.asp?id=171

[cynical1]

Either one of the tools you have links to will work. Something else you may want to consider are finger planes. Like these:



Either way, when working with the grain you can take larger or deeper cuts. When working against the grain you'll want to do smaller more shallow cuts. This is a good rule of thumb. Wood carving is an art...and I make no pretenses of being an artist... I can say, for a fact, that if you want a good result you need to keep your tools very sharp. And tool sharpening is an art in itself as well.

Start small and work slow. To me, the result is what I'm after, so power tools are cool with me. Some purists may wince at that, but if a power tool makes the job easier I figure why not. And what are the odds of anyone noticing the 100 hours you put in hand carving versus the 3 hours you put in with a power tool?

You're on the right track. Be patient and you'll be proud of your results.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[ijustwannastrat]

Ok, thanks.

On to the art of sharpening, gross. I'm not the best at it, but I can sharpen straight blades. How are you supposed to sharpen the curved ones, though?

[cynical1]

Same way you sharpen a farrier's knife.

[dennyb2009]

Another option that I have seen demonstrated (on U tube I think ) is the use of an angle grinder with a carving blade and with a flap sander type blade . With a little practice on some cheep framing lumber you can become adept at doing relief carving with one .I have done some furniture carving this way . Then you can fine tune the results with hand sanding .

[lpf3]

I guess I missed this thread- lot's of god advice on carving a top. I've been toying with the idea of making a "sled" in which a router can travel over an arched track & carve an arch onto a fixed workpiece making multiple passes.

I made such a "sled" for planing a flat surface ......



I'm wondering if a similar fixture could be made to do an archtop, or at least a good start towards roughing it in for final finishing by hand.

Anybody got any ideas or better yet progress pics?

-lpf3

[lpf3]

Here's a little better view....




I'm thinking if the sides and the track were arched...... who knows?


-lpf3

[cynical1]

With enough time and effort invested you could make something like this work. As with any work with a router, control is always the issue.

The trick with using a fixture for a curved top would be securing your body to a bench, and also allowing a full range of motion for the router.

What comes to mind first is building your fixture to run the curved outline on a larger blank, then cutting the blank back to fit what you've routed...if that makes any sense...

I'd have to think if this could be done with a single bit, or a combination...my first thoughts lead me to a combination of a cove and large radius bits...hmmm...

Whatever it would finally look like it would certainly be a big fixture...


Happy Trails

Cynical One