Sustain and Saddles

[vonFrenchie]

So I recently purchased an early 80's Aria Pro II les paul copy. I love it, everything about it is awesome. But the sustain isn't up to par... I think.

The neck has a really solid joint, 5 screws holding it in. the neck itself is straight and the guitar was properly intonated at my local shop. The nut was prepared there too. That leaves one culprit left, I think. the 30ish year old bridge. Most 30 year old bridges are fine, I drive across them all the time, but this one shows considerable wear. The low E saddle is rounded instead of V shaped.

Do you think this could be the cause of my sustain problems or are my hopes for tone just way, way too high?

I don't exactly know how long the sustain should be. I played an Ibanez hollowbody with a Bigsby before this so the sustain sucked (because of the roller bridge).

[cynical1]

You correct in assuming that "sustain" issues can come from multiple locations.

Depending on the spacing, you may be able to retrofit to TonePro's or Schaller with little or no pain.

One question - What does the sustain feel like unplugged?

HTC1

[vonFrenchie]

The low E rings for maybe 4 or 5 seconds but I can see it still vibrating for another 4 or so. When its plugged in I can't get those notes that just ring out and stick with you, ya know?

I'm very unsure of the spacing and I don't know if my eye is accurate enough to measure it, then again I don't know how different all these bridges are.

[Runewalker]

… But the sustain isn't up to par... I think. …The low E saddle is rounded instead of V shaped. Do you think this could be the cause of my sustain problems or are my hopes for tone just way, way too high?

Sustain is primarily driven by the mass and density of the substrata (guitar body, neck and headstock), and the mechanical coupling of the strings end-points. String diameter and materials can also affect sustain. Non-feedback driven sustain happens when sting vibration dissipation or dampening is delayed, or in a non-gravitational environment, eliminated.

Chassis (guitar) integrity and materials can affect sustain. Principal sources of dissipation are:
• Sting to guitar coupling at the headstock, bridge, and with tunos, the stop tail-piece or through-the-body anchors.
• The neck joint (set-neck, neck-through, bolt-on).
• Nut and fret mass and materials.
• Wood or other materials’ density and mass.

At the headstock end the type of nut can affect open string sustain. In the sustain cult of the 70’s – early 80’s you could find companies and guitarists lauding the virtues of brass nuts (careful, watch your metaphors) --- for a while they were putting brass everywhere…. Santana supposedly had brass blocks bolted to his headstocks for increased sustain.

stratoblogster.blogspot.com/2006/10/fatfinger-headstock-guitar-sustain.html

Used to be a product called “Fathead” which was a brass plate milled in the shape of various mfg. headstocks. Never seen one live though.

There are anecdotal reports of increased sustain using higher mass tuners.

www.guitarsite.com/newsletters/990802/4.shtml

At the bridge end it is about materials, mass and coupling.

Prior to Santana’s PRS conversion he played Yamaha SG-2000 and some of these had a brass block under the bridge to increase sustain.
www.vintageguitar.com/features/brands/details.asp?AID=1191

www.iol.ie/~shango/carlos%20santana1big.jpg

I was fully expecting a solid brass guitar before the brass mania was all over. Wait ….

Back in the early 80's Ibanez made a 75 lb. solid brass 'Artist guitar as a spoof and put it on display at a NAMM show. (The artist is sort of a double cutaway Les Paul.) This was at the height of the brass craze. They had many inquiries on how to order.

archive.ampage.org/threads/0/guitelec/001564/brass_plate_behind_headstock-2.html

But to get to your question:

• Ensure that the neck joint where the neck wood and body wood enjoy as much intimate contact as possible. I even take them apart to inspect whether the milling is consistent and perfectly flat. There is a lot of sloppy milling. Sometimes placing a neck pocket sized piece of card-stock in the joint assists void fills. The card stock is microscopically "fluffy" and a wood product, so it compresses in contact points and fills voids, unless they are large of course.
  
  Then fully and completely torque the neck screws, after assessing if there is any play in the screw purchase into the body. If there is play the best solution is to drill the hole, glue a dowel into the hole, shave the dowel to the plane of the neck-pocket, re-drill the pilot hole and install preferably a new screw. Sometimes a harder denser screw material like stainless screws marginally help increase torque, improving both screw purchase and neck-to body coupling. I have been surprised how tweaking in that location has helped the ringing sustain of bolt-on chassis structures.
  
  
  
• Better, heavier tuners at the headstock can help. If you don’t want the additional expanse loosen and re-torque the tuner nuts to ensure adequate coupling.
  
  
  
• If the nut is plastic or worn, replace it with a better material.
  
  
• Tunos: Remove the bridge and components for a thorough inspection

a. The pin bushings are frequently a problem. If they pull out easily then there is poor coupling between the bushings and the body wood. Permanent solutions include gluing dowels and re-drilling pilots for the bushings (a pain and can be hard on finishes), or epoxying the bushings (you are then “stuck” with that solution ;D ).

Temporary solutions include shimming the bushings (difficult since they are ridged and the ridges bite into the wood --- smooth shims defeat the ridge bite), or seeing if you can find a replacement bridge kit with larger bushings (long shot since you probably have Asian spacing specs).

b. If the saddles have play they are a source of dissipation. Easiest solution is an new bridge. There are things you can do to improve play, but it may not be worth it.

c. Conventional tunos “float” on their pins. Tone Pros and knockoffs have set pins to lock the coupling at that float point.

d. Same issue on the bushings with the stop-piece.

e. You might try the Billy (Reverend) Gibbons approach of wrapping the strings on the stop piece for marginally better string to stop-piece interfacing. Seems a stretch though.


f. The basis issue is to search for play or slack and eliminate it. Improve coupling integrity where ever string contact is made.

for e. above:
www.mylespaul.com/forums/gibson-les-pauls/22484-stop-bar-tail-piece-through-vs-around.html

I have heard the argument from some quarters that push lighter aluminum stop pieces. I think their thinking is less metal mass to intrude into the string to body transfer. I know of no empirical studies showing that making any difference. Seems counter intuitive.

Good Luck,
RW.

[rabidgerry]

Sorry to barge in like this but I want an opinion on the "FatFinger"?? I've been considering it for well over a year or two now and I just haven't cause of well I'm not sure, sceptical.

Well I'm starting to believe the heavier theory because:

[glow=red,2,300]I got a strat with a floyd rose on it

Heavier than my regular strat

Metal nut where the clamps get screwed down

and there fore pretty heavy allround!![/glow]

So when I first got this guitar I noticed it seemed to have amazing sustain for a strat (in accordance with what I have experienced through playing other strats and of course my own regular strat).

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I was thinking, get a FatFinger? Stick it on my reglar strat? Get better sustain?

£20 for a FatFinger where I am, could be worth it?

What da ya think?

I'm particularly interested in helping this regular strat out as I think its got crap susatain

[vonFrenchie]

rapidgerry, I'm feeling the same way. Having multiple guitars, and an ever increasing arsenal, makes me worry a bit about the sustain problems of my current and future guitars. The fatfinger looks like a pretty easy to use and viable option. But, I also read these

reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Groove+Tubes/Fatfinger/10/1

Of course I will do what rune said and check the movement of the saddles and what not. I was also thinking about wrapping the strings around the stop piece and rune's comment about it really sold me on it (even if he was unsure).

Do most vintage Japanese guitars have the same measurements for bridges? If so then I am set. This guitar is from a very common Japanese manufacturer (at least common in Japan) so it would probably have a standardized piece.

[vonFrenchie]

So I did a quick assessment. With the strings on, tuned to D standard (is that the problem?) the saddles, bridge and stop bar are all solid and I cant even fit a pin into the neck joint. Obviously with the strings loosened everything jiggles a bit. The bushings feel fairly solid. As for the tuners, they are vintage Gotohs. These puppies are solid. They're silver with a gold finish, so I'm not sure about the material, but I can tell you they aren't light.

I'm going to try to beefen up the headstock (which is pretty whimpy to begin with. I might put some D-cell batteries or quarters on the back.

[newey]

Do most vintage Japanese guitars have the same measurements for bridges? If so then I am set. This guitar is from a very common Japanese manufacturer (at least common in Japan) so it would probably have a standardized piece.

Is it like a std LP Bridge? Tune-amatic?

Its not that the bridges have the same measurements (well, perhaps they do, but you'd be gettin' lucky). It's that they were likely from the same manufacturer, and are identical even though used on many different guitar models.

There were probably dozens of brand names coming out of Japan in the early '80s, but all these were made by a handful of manufacturers. Typically, they'd market their own stuff under one or more brand names, and also do contract building for other brands. And there were probably 3 or 4 bridge manufacturers who supplied those guitar factories.

So, you may find one company's bridges on many different guitars, and if they're all from the same bridge maker, they're probably identical.

But measure it carefully (measure twice . . .) and try to see if you can get exact dimensions on what you're buying.

[ashcatlt]

If it's got a bolt on neck, it's not a Les Paul.

String tension has something to do with sustain as well. Lighter strings and/or lower tunings could be part of the problem. What's D standard? DGCFAD, or...?

[vonFrenchie]

ashcatlt, its a les paul COPY. like I said in my first post.

D standard is in fact DGCFAD. Its pretty common among metal bands.

The main problem with measuring is that the posts are around 5.1 mm wide. I haven't seen any bridges with that size post

[Runewalker]

rabidgerry

I notice the same diff between floyds and conventional strat trems ---- 6 screw and 2-point. Floyd's have more metal, frequently a denser metal, and more mass. Which is why you feel the diff. Although if they are set up a true floaters that effect might be diminished. Trems in general are not about secure coupling but about wang dang doodle, so sustain is illusive almost by design. The more mass at the anchor points the more sustain. That notion also sort of challenges the whole "tone wood" concept as well.

To diminish string vibration dissipation in conventional trem Strats the standard interventions or upgrades I do first are:

• New Nut if the existing one is cheap plastic.
  
• New tuners if the old ones are insubstantial.
  
• replace the funky and cheap pot metal 's trem blocks with steel blocks. (guitar fetish's are pretty inexpensive. ~$21)
  replace cheap Asian saddles with stainless Steel saddles. ($12 at GF, roller saddles are $14 at GF).
  
• or get a new bridge with the above features and a harder denser base plate - price range at GFS is $40-45 depending on type. The 6-screw replacement standard bridges have stamped steel saddles; the 2 pt. bridges have the steel blocks. I prefer the steel block type, however have not seen any data study comparing the transfer qualities of each, so it is just a personal preference.

Of course you can spend more on more expensive brands.

Also,
If you want more sustain increase your string gauge and the number of springs in the spring cavity. It will make it harder to whammy but give the dynamic contraption more stability. I frequently use 4-5, but I don't wang dang doodle that much.

There is actually an optimal string guage per tuning for sustain. If string tension is too tight it can impede sustain. I don't have any guidelines, I use .010-.056 sets and sustain is not a prob in standard tuning. Even 11-56 seem to do fine, just gotta have some stronger fingers to bend notes. Yes I know, the bass strings are a little on the thick side.

I have many trem blocks I have locked down with various techniques. That definitely helps sustain, but you loose the wang dang doodle.

the above are to try to improve acoustic sustain, not electronic sustain.

Good Luck
RW

[ashcatlt]

Feb 26, 2010 18:25:25 GMT -5 Runewalker said:

...electronic sustain.

By this, I'd assume you mean compression.

Then there's electromagnetic sustain. First link I found, we can elaborate on that.

Or are you talking about good old fashioned acoustic feedback, where the speaker shakes the air, the air shakes the body, and the body shakes the strings?

[Runewalker]

Ash...

you are being more precise in terms than I was. I see I was a little sloppy.

Or are you talking about good old fashioned acoustic feedback, where the speaker shakes the air, the air shakes the body, and the body shakes the strings?

I was just trying to make sure vonFrenchie and rabidgerry were talking about unamplified string vibration.

thanks for the clarification.

[JohnH]

Heres my 2c

'LP copies' came in all qualities - sharing the approximate profile shape but different body thicknesses, different woods etc. As I recall, Aria made some good ones. So with yours, how thick is the body at the edge? what wood is it made of (might be hard to tell - but you might see if it has a separate maple cap), how heavy is it?

LPs are of course, heavier than Strats and that adds to the sustain since the body and neck are stiffer.

I have two, an 80's bolt-on copy by Cort, which is a well made simple guitar and plays well, but is completely eclipsed in every way by my 93 Gibson Studio, particularly for sustain. I think the main difference is the stiffer woods used, thicker body and neck. Note stiffness and density are two different properties of the wood, and I think overall stiffness is more important than density. On all my other guitars, I can get a 1/2 semitone bend by pushing a little at the back of the neck, but the Gibson resists and tells me to stop doing that.

With equal components the stiffer guitar body will dissipate less energy than a more flexible one.

I think the neck joint is not necessarily a problem if it is solid. A well made bolted joint with excellent contact should be stiffer than the section of neck next to it. Its just that a set neck is inherently stiff, and is also these days, an indicator of an overall better attempt at an LP than is a bolt on. But I think there were some good bolt on copies back then.

Last point, maybe the key, or maybe not.

Is this this your only guitar with a 24 3/4" scale? ie most guitars have 25 1/2" For a given tuning, the shorter scale has less string tension. when you pluck a string, less energy goes in and it will die quicker. This effect is increased if you drop tune. The way to compensate is heavier strings, which get more tension. I like 10-52 in standard tuning. If you are playing 9-42s in drop d, Id say thats yer problem right there!

cheers
John

[vonFrenchie]

John,

It's a flame maple top, 1.65 inches thick at the edge (its a carved top as you could guess). It weighs, by guess, its 6 to 7 pounds. It weighs less than my friend's late-90's Epi LP. This is my only guitar with a 24.75" scale. My Ibanez and Jackson are both 25.5. I use Ernie Ball Power Slinkys (11-48).

So, unless I have a maple body with a flame maple top (could be), I'm thinking I should bump the strings up to "Not Even Slinkys" - 12-56.

Rune- I am talking about unamplified vibration. If I wanted amplified vibration I'd hit a note and stand a foot away from my amp with the volume all the way up ;D.

[rabidgerry]

Feb 26, 2010 18:25:25 GMT -5 Runewalker said:

rabidgerry

I notice the same diff between floyds and conventional strat trems ---- 6 screw and 2-point. Floyd's have more metal, frequently a denser metal, and more mass. Which is why you feel the diff. Although if they are set up a true floaters that effect might be diminished. Trems in general are not about secure coupling but about wang dang doodle, so sustain is illusive almost by design. The more mass at the anchor points the more sustain. That notion also sort of challenges the whole "tone wood" concept as well.

To diminish string vibration dissipation in conventional trem Strats the standard interventions or upgrades I do first are:

• New Nut if the existing one is cheap plastic.
  
• New tuners if the old ones are insubstantial.
  
• replace the funky and cheap pot metal 's trem blocks with steel blocks. (guitar fetish's are pretty inexpensive. ~$21)
  replace cheap Asian saddles with stainless Steel saddles. ($12 at GF, roller saddles are $14 at GF).
  
• or get a new bridge with the above features and a harder denser base plate - price range at GFS is $40-45 depending on type. The 6-screw replacement standard bridges have stamped steel saddles; the 2 pt. bridges have the steel blocks. I prefer the steel block type, however have not seen any data study comparing the transfer qualities of each, so it is just a personal preference.

Of course you can spend more on more expensive brands.

Also,
If you want more sustain increase your string gauge and the number of springs in the spring cavity. It will make it harder to whammy but give the dynamic contraption more stability. I frequently use 4-5, but I don't wang dang doodle that much.

There is actually an optimal string guage per tuning for sustain. If string tension is too tight it can impede sustain. I don't have any guidelines, I use .010-.056 sets and sustain is not a prob in standard tuning. Even 11-56 seem to do fine, just gotta have some stronger fingers to bend notes. Yes I know, the bass strings are a little on the thick side.

I have many trem blocks I have locked down with various techniques. That definitely helps sustain, but you loose the wang dang doodle.

the above are to try to improve acoustic sustain, not electronic sustain.

Good Luck
RW

Okey dokey

well I got a LSR roller nut fitted last week and the old Squire Strat sounds totally amazing!!!! Has helped the sustain AAAAALLOTTT.

Thing is though, (and I bought a replacement bridge from guitar fetish) I don't seem many other import trems of good quality on the market. My strat is a '96 Korean Squire (before the suqire logo changed to solid black and took away the serial number and stuff from the headstock) so I needs the imports sized trems. According to the Guitar Fetish website its not made of "pot metal" and has a steel block but how the hell will I know the difference. I think the block is larger than my one at the moment.

Anyways two things I aint gonna do.

I'm not gonna change from 10-46 to anything heavier, no way thats already heavy compared to a lot of metal lead players. Oh and I don't play anything other than standard tuning,(not even dropped D).

The other thing is I can't put no more strings in the back as I find it tough enough to use the trem and I was hoping to make it a little smoother by moving the spring arrangement around or else removing a spring.

So with sustain improved a bit via new LSR nut may be a fatfinger will give me more MORE!(I'm a very greedy person and if I can get more of anything I will do it).

I'm gonna try it when I some extra cash.