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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 8, 2010 14:42:44 GMT -5
Hello all!!! I've got some string hitching issue still despite having had an LSR roller nut put on my old squire strat! I love this guitar and I'm determined to get the vintage style trem working. I know some folks out there probably think! Why go to that bother? Well I watch countless players with the crappy old vintage trem go crazy on the whammy bar and still they are in tune!!! This is why!! I want to have the trem that don't go outta tune like Blackmore, Malmsteen, KK Downing, Rory Gallagher when the was using their vintage trems on their strats!! So at the minute I'm about 85% tuning stability. I'm thinking when I'm richer I'll buy some locking tuners good move? Also for now I'm gonna do the locking string winding technique, good idea?? Also I reckon better saddles than my saddles I got on right now, trouble is which ones? ? Help oh and to make the latter a little more difficult, we're talking about import sized saddles of a 10.5mm 2 1/16 string spacing size (of which there are limited replacements for). I was interested in getting roller saddles but guess what!!! They only come for the larger 10.8mm spacing. Through all yer suggestions down guys and help a silly obsessive!!
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Post by Double Yoi on Mar 9, 2010 7:30:48 GMT -5
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 9, 2010 7:55:46 GMT -5
I've got those Graphtech saddles for Wilkinson and for the vintage vibrato. Love them. They are much lighter than normal saddles. Besides locking tuners, what also help the vibrato system stability very much, is something like the Ibanez Backstop/Rockinger Black box/ESP Arming Adjuster. The Rockinger part is the cheapest one at €15 (they are currently selling for $35 + free shipping at the eBay USA). Not expensive at all and very effective. Locking tuners also always make sense. Here are some budget ones: store.guitarfetish.com/negostlotusp.html
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 10, 2010 12:16:17 GMT -5
Thanks guys!!
Not sure I know what the rockinger part does though? Other than stop the sustain block from going any further back. Surely this would mess with tip up angle should you want any.
I've only a little bit of tip up.
Shall ask Sumgai for some help also.
Thanks
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Post by sumgai on Mar 10, 2010 14:03:15 GMT -5
Hey, don't ask me, I don't know nuttin'! I've never used anything like these "spring snubbers", and in all the time I worked (officially or otherwise) on guitars, I saw only one, and that was a metalhead's BC Rich. I asked him why didn't he just tighten the springs until the block was resting against the body wood, and he said that he'd tried that, and it didn't always come back to in-tune. This gizmo worked better, or so he said, because of the slight extra working room from not sitting on the body wood while at rest. OKaaaaaay..... To each their own, I've always said, right? I think you all know my philosophy by now, eh? If you're treating the symptoms, why not cure the problem correctly? And if that's not possible, then why not stop causing the symptoms in the first place? After all, the guitar is in tune while just sitting there, without you abusing it, right? Then why abuse it in the first place? "Oh, but it's how I make my music" you say. Fine, I've no argument with that, but if that's the case, then don't you think it'd be better/easier/smarter/cheaper to just use the equipment made for that kind of (ab)use, instead of slapping on a bandaid? Locking tuners work because they're faster to re-string, not because they hold the string any tighter. I've used both, and I don't care for either one over the other. Five (5) wraps of a string over the protruding end (or stuff the protruding end down the hole, in an older Fender machine head), and you've locked that string as tight as any locking head you're likely to find on the market. I've proven that time and again, to many a player, and I'll stand for a test with anyone, anywhere, anytime on that particular subject. Mark me, nothing wrong with lockers, I just don't see that they cure any ills better than the non-lockers, when the strings are put on correctly. The best nut out there is anything from Graphtech, bar none. I don't care what you say, what you point to as proof, or who you point to as an endorser, if it ain't a Graphtech nut, you're not using the best possible material, and that's all I'll say on that subject. And that goes for both 'return to in-tune' and tone. (Oops, I guess I did have something more to say.... sorry 'bout that. ) Crap, even more to say on nuts.....(Added as an afterthought.) I'm assuming here that the notches cut for each string are the correct depth and diameter. Graphite nut material is much more forgiving (tolerant) of incorrect notching, but still, there's no percentage in "forcing" the nut to do it's job when it wasn't set up correctly in the first place. Bridge saddles. Almost the same thing here. A graphite saddle will help a string to return to in-tune a little better, but more importantly, it reduces or eliminates that slight peak in the frequency spectrum that shows up at about 1.8KHz, on most bridges. Sometimes replacing the inertia block (the correct name for that lump of metal sitting under the bridge plate itself) with a better quality steel unit will also reduce this peak, but that won't affect the string's ability to return to in-tune. And finally, the springs. Here's where the rubber meets the road..... Springs are made of out of almost every kind of material imaginable. Get good quality springs, made of high tensile strength steel, and you should be good to go. Mild steel, cold-rolled steel, and anything of lesser quality will give you the fits, I can almost guarantee it. Only hot-rolled spring steel will return to it's true position correctly every time, over the years. How can you tell what you've got? I've no clue. I'm only reporting what I learned many years ago in pre-engineering classes, I've never had to work in that kind of industry, so we'll have to rely on other sources for help on that one. In the mean time, even if they're made out of less-than-best-possible material, use springs that work. I happen to like Fender's offerings, but that doesn't make them the best, only the best all-around value (ability to find them for sale, cost, and of course, actual use). Springs are even more universal than strings - they're all the same length, so try different ones. Try more or fewer of them. I like three springs in my guitar, spaced equally across the claw and block. Some folks think that spacing one's springs oddly will give better results. I can't see how...... The strings are all very nearly the same tension anyway, and even if they weren't (as in a Drop D tuning, for instance), the inertial block still obviates any individual string tension differences. Any classic Mechanical Engineering text will give you the formulas for testing that theory. In summary, there are only two points along the string length where they can "catch" and cause tuning problems - the nut and the saddle. Fix those friction points, and you're most of the way home. The last thing would be the springs, and if your current ones aren't making you happy, then try springs from a different company. Final thoughts. Try different strings. Don't like the tone of some particular new string set? OK, drop it and move on to the next set. Plan on spending several days worth of lunch money, until you're satisfied that you've eliminated strings as the problem, or that you've found something that works better for you, both tone and in-tune wise. All in my humble opinion, of course. ;D sumgai
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 10, 2010 15:27:15 GMT -5
Not sure I know what the rockinger part does though? Other than stop the sustain block from going any further back. Surely this would mess with tip up angle should you want any. There is more than that. It pushes the sustain block into a defined "zero" position, while still allowing to use the vibrato system both up and down. That wouldn't work with sumgai's suggestion.
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Post by Double Yoi on Mar 10, 2010 18:34:52 GMT -5
And THATS why he's the boss!
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Post by sumgai on Mar 10, 2010 19:51:18 GMT -5
Well, the point being that you can set the "zero" point anywhere you wish, and if you use a mechanical device to set it, or you use part of the body to set it, it makes no difference. What should be obvious, but I'll say it anyway, is that in using the body for a "guaranteed return point", you need the springs to clamp that ineria block to the wood, like pretty hard. Not tons of force, but more than just a tiny bit. What's not obvious from dunk's statement, and from the advertising literature, is that this magic zero point depends on the strings coming back to the same tension (when at rest) as when the unit was first set up. If something causes one or more of strings to "hang up", it/they go out of tune, which in turn means that the tension is no longer what it's supposed to be. At that point in time the string's "zero point" has effectively moved, and the device can't automatically compensate for that. All of which, in turn, means that the string must move without any issues - no friction points whatsoever can be allowed. And if that's the case, then one shouldn't need an extra add-on device to stay in tune, the strings and springs should already be balanced to a fare-thee-well. I have a feeling, no particular evidence to hand except personal observation, but I'll throw it out there anyways..... I think that what's happening is that a player "gets excited", and forgets just how sensitive the bridge movement can be. He (or she) starts getting vigorous, and the next thing you know, the hand what was "just resting" on the bridge is now actually moving it. I know that I can do this, but once I discovered myself actually doing it, I not only trained myself out of the habit, but I now incorporate the ability into some of my musical passages (or stated more correctly, into what I wish other people would accept as a musical passage.... ) That "mechanical chorusing" effect is very handy at times, and very distractive at others.... one needs to concentrate to train one's self to use it only when desired, and not let it happen accidentally. Now, as it happens, amazingly enough, I went do to my local GC since my previous post, and lo and behold, I found the manager and asst. manager both gone (promoted and transferred), and new people all over the place. This let me take various guitars down off the wall without embarassment (the old crew knew I couldn't play for doodly), and I set about "whanging" on various vibrato tailpieces. Whaddya know, every last one of them came back to perfect tune. No matter how much I dive-bombed, nothing could make any of them go out of whack. Now this was only a half-dozen guitars, not a very large sample, but I tried a BC Rich Warlock, an ESP, an Ibanez, a Floyd Rose, a PRS, and of course, a good ol' Strat. Lemme repeat that - none of them went out of tune after returning from a full-on EVH onslaught. (Not that I could pull off Eddie, but at least I can press the bar downwards towards the body, eh?) One does have to note, however, that all of them except the FR have no "reverse" - no pulling up to increase the pitch. This presupposes that their inertia blocks may well be resting on the body wood, I didn't have any way to ascertain that particular facet in my quickie testing routine. The FR did indeed let me pull up a ways, and it still refused to go out of tune when released. Stock components all, no mods, no special name-brand stuff added on at the factory, nada. Cheap, expensive, it didn't matter. But the beauty here is, any one of you can duplicate my experiment. Go ahead, trot down to your local musical emporium and have at it! Whatter they gonna do, ask you to stop tring to find your next purchase? Let us know what you find, OK? HTH sumgai
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 11, 2010 1:11:32 GMT -5
At that point in time the string's "zero point" has effectively moved, and the device can't automatically compensate for that. actually it can. since you have to tighten the springs so they pull hard. it works even reasonably well when a string breaks. well, i can speak only for myself, but i never, ever, rest my hand at the bridge. especially since i normally pick somewhere near the neck pickup and my hands are quite small. that is a matter of setup. normally even a vintage vibrato allows you some free float and a possibility to pull up with the recommended setup (means that you actually shouldn't tighten the springs so it rests on the body wood). i've even seen that strange dude, how was his name, ah, yngwie malmsteen, doing it with his stratocaster. anyway, a two point free floating vibrato may go somewhat out of tune after abusing it, i definitely have experienced it often enough. blackbox really helps there and also helps when you are bending, especially two strings at once (because of the increased spring tension) - normally a free floating vibrato would go somewhat down when bending, giving you a feeling of "rubber" strings, if you see what i mean.
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 15, 2010 12:35:06 GMT -5
Okey doke, I still aint understanding the benefits of that device in the trem cavity and I'm sold on the saddles with teflon on em.
I'm just pointing out Sumgai's point on the graphtech nut and the nut is no longer a problem considering on my guitar as the LSR roller nut (mentioned way at the top) which I have installed doesn't allow string hitching what so ever because the string now rests on two metal ball bearings, no messing around with properly cut nut notches for me anymore.
My problem (I'm pretty sure anyways) must lie at the saddles. Eiter that or my string trees.
So I will take on board the saddle advice given here and invest in the Ferraglide import strat saddles.
And just to make a point about equipment and using the right stuff for the right job (i.e a floyd rose is your going to dive bomb your face off) I only want to get my vintage trem to work the way I have seen it work for others, others being some of those famous players I mentioned way at the top of the page. If they can wreck the hell outta their vintage trem then I wanna do that to or not worry about doing that should I feel the need during a gig. This is my motivation in to curing as many string hitching aspects as possible with my squire and making the best of a vintage style trem which I would want to replace with a floyd rose.
I like the point about the trem springs as well, makes sense so I guess I'll try getting some decent springs at some point, mine aren't even silver looking anymore!! More grey!!!
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 15, 2010 12:52:30 GMT -5
that is a matter of setup. normally even a vintage vibrato allows you some free float and a possibility to pull up with the recommended setup (means that you actually shouldn't tighten the springs so it rests on the body wood). i've even seen that strange dude, how was his name, ah, yngwie malmsteen, doing it with his stratocaster. I believe this is called "tip up" angle? Here's a thing though, threads are gone in my 6 pivots screw holes, so I'm gonna fix them up before I tries re-adjusting everything, cause I'd like a little tip up (for the hell of it). Can I just point out also that I've a Fender Strat which I had come with a floyd Rose, and in comparison to other floyd mounted guitars you can't have much upward bending ablitity with it due to the fact that there isn't a big chunk cut out of the body for the bridge to get pulled back. Yes true. Its does float however, by a few millimeters. If you wanted large bending upward capability you'd need to raise the action a good bit and of course then it becomes unplayable becuase I'm talking about at least a centimeter at each pivot post to give you some upward bending capability. Weird how fender install floyd roses and don't make a bit o extra room to bend up init? I don't care for much anyways so all good!!
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 15, 2010 12:53:54 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on Mar 15, 2010 20:57:31 GMT -5
Gerry,
Yes, those look to be the real meal deal - jump on 'em! ;D
sumgai
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 16, 2010 1:02:06 GMT -5
Okey doke, I still aint understanding the benefits of that device in the trem cavity and I'm sold on the saddles with teflon on em Well the benefit is there when your vibrato system is a free floating one - you've got nearly the same stability as when the springs are tightened so the sustain block is pressed against the body wood, but it still allows you some limited upbending. And yes, those graphtech saddles are great. I like their weight best.
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 16, 2010 11:31:30 GMT -5
Okey my trem is like trying to pull back satan from hell, what kinda spring tension am I looking for when I go to buy new springs? Most places don't even give you a choice but I've seen some people selling high medium and low tension springs.
I'm inclined to think medium or low lension to make it easier for me to do the whammy bar, but I'm also inclined to think heavy tension because right now my trem claw and the screws which hold it in position are screwed way into the body, thus giving me the impression that I've already got medium to light tension springs in there? Its all a bit confusing, trying to buy tensile steel springs is also prooving quite a mission!!!
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 18, 2010 13:43:42 GMT -5
Okey my trem is like trying to pull back satan from hell, what kinda spring tension am I looking for when I go to buy new trem springs? Most places don't even give you a choice but I've seen some people selling high medium and low tension springs. I'm inclined to think medium or low lension to make it easier for me to do the whammy bar, but I'm also inclined to think heavy tension because right now my trem claw and the screws which hold it in position are screwed way into the body, thus giving me the impression that I've already got medium to light tension springs in there? Its all a bit confusing, trying to buy tensile steel springs is also prooving quite a mission!!! here is a photo of my tuners. I've never seen tuners like this before. I can't find any and I mean any locking tuners with this screw configuration, what to do everbody?
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Post by newey on Mar 18, 2010 14:12:15 GMT -5
RG-
I usually just drill new holes for replacement tuners. Depending on the configuration of the new ones, sometimes you get lucky and the new ones cover the old holes. If not, the old holes can be filled with a bit of work, and it won't look to bad if it's done right. I don't know that I would do this with a guitar of any value, however.
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 18, 2010 14:27:02 GMT -5
Dammit!! The tuners I have seen about the place have only the one screw hole in the bottom right corner which may fit the existing hole but that would leave a random hole in the top left. I don't think I could drill holes in this guitar which sux that they've such random tuners on in the 1st place. I didn't put these on, they were like this when I bought the guitar 2nd hand many moons ago. Never seen this type of tuner on a Squire/Fender strat before.
Any hints on the tension string issue newey?
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Post by newey on Mar 18, 2010 15:11:21 GMT -5
The tuners with a single screw will line up with one of the 2 holes you have from your diagonal-screw mounted tuners. But the bad news is that the knob won't be straight (i.e., won't be at a right angle to the headstock). So you'd end up drilling 2 new holes anyway. All the locking tuners I've seen (except 1) also use a 10mm peg hole- which may or may not be the same as yours- meaning potentially more drilling. The sole exception is that Gotoh makes locking tuners that are direct retrofit to vintage-style Kluson tuners (the square- cover ones like on old Strats) But yours aren't the vintage style, so those aren't likely to be a direct replacement for yours. As far as the string tension issue, I'm the wrong one to ask. I don't use my vibratos much, and all my vibrato-equipped guitars are the 6-screw type. I screw them down tight and leave 'em be. My white Strat has a vibrato arm lying around somewhere, but it's been so long since I had it on the guitar I doubt I could find it on a bet. When/if I do use the bar, it's just a little wiggle, no dive bombing- which can't be done with the screws tightened down anyway. We have had discussion about properly setting up a vibrato tailpiece, maybe you should go back to the drawing board and re-set your unit. This is the skinny on that: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=whammy&action=display&thread=3211
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 22, 2010 10:38:19 GMT -5
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 22, 2010 11:26:27 GMT -5
First ones are Schaller tuners. Second ones are Sperzel, and you will need to drill new holes for them (they don't use a screw, but a special pin instead). Screws are easier. Also Schaller tuners have got a higher gear ratio of 1:16 (1:12 for Sperzel) so they are more precise.
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 27, 2010 14:14:51 GMT -5
Have you won the tuners? I ask because I am currently selling a Sperzel Trim-Lok set in satin chrome (bought black ones as a replacement).
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 30, 2010 9:41:32 GMT -5
Hey man I'd by those tuners if they was 8.6mm peg holes, but I'm pretty sure they're 10 right?
I've already been speaking to a guy to order me in the Gotoh SD91's with height adjustability and the magnum locks. They are going to cost me a lot of money!! But %&*$? it, they'll be worth it.
Still can't get this dam trem to work well though. Can't afford the new saddles yet and it will be a few weeks for the Gotoh's to come in so just have to non trem for now.
Thanks for the offer.
EDIT: Just cleaned up the expletive. Hey, I loved The Commitments as much as anyone, but gotta keep it cool for the kiddies. C1
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 30, 2010 10:07:37 GMT -5
Pretty much every tuner nowadays uses 10 mm holes so it probably would have been wise to do widen the holes of the guitar. I did it once (well, asked my neighbour to, actually). Worked like a charm.
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 30, 2010 12:55:45 GMT -5
Pretty much every tuner nowadays uses 10 mm holes so it probably would have been wise to do widen the holes of the guitar. I did it once (well, asked my neighbour to, actually). Worked like a charm. I wouldn't fancy paying my local luthier guy to widen holes for me after I've shelled out £5o for the dam things then shell out another 20 for him to fit them!! So I just bought tuners that will fit the 8.6-8.8 holes. Makes sense. I'll not need no more tuners after this (fingers crossed)
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 30, 2010 13:04:10 GMT -5
I see :-) In my case the tuners I've bought back then already changed the guitar three times, but then again not everyone is a guitarnut like me
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 31, 2010 10:35:44 GMT -5
Tuners are the last thing I've ever had to look at on my guitars which is why I'm gonna get these Gotoh's and I'm taking care of two problems in one go and hopefully wont need to change them ever again.
Firstly, they are alround better quality tuners than those installed on my strat at the moment,
the first problem they take care off is locking, since they lock
the second problem they take care off is string trees, since they are height adjustable I can have them nicely seated over the nut and effectively eliminate the need for strings trees (which in my case are definately causing some of the hitching for me, though no one has brought that issue up here).
Then to top that all off I shall invest in the graph tech saddles, which are currently out of stock from the guy I wanna buy them off (he's selling them cheapest). Hopefully by vintage style trem will stay in tune then!!
One thing I have improved since I last changed the strings on this guitar is the action of the trem. I've defied the common rules of which way to set the pivot screws up and instead raised them up to a height which allowed the best amount of movement. So according to everything I have read, what I did goes against it since the outer two pivot screws seem much higher than what is the standard setting for them (screw down the outter two screws tight and have the centre four sitting higher and just above the bridge plate)
The way mine is set up has the outter two screws set a height that allows the best movement (easiest, smoothest operation), then set the inner screws to sit just above the brigde plate. Works great, but the whole dam thing goes waty outta tune badly!!, goes flat every time.
I intend to reduce the floating tip up angle also as ut is currently too high for my liking.
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 31, 2010 11:14:42 GMT -5
Try this configuration, it might help, who knows
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 31, 2010 11:38:10 GMT -5
Tried it!!! Made no difference really, providing the pivot screws at the outter sides where deciding the height and action of the trem. It works fine now, or sorry feels fine now, like my floyd rose, but goes outta tune like a motherfunker (will I get corrected for that I wonder). Hitching all over the shop, definately not the nut though, so that leaves the tuners and saddles. Nothing I can do till I get the new stuff (saddles and tuners) in, and on my unemployed budget thats gonna have to be periodically
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 31, 2010 13:27:55 GMT -5
Well, it would probably have been cheaper to buy a Cort G260 in first place - It has already got a Wilkinson vibrato system, Graphtech nut, locking tuners and roller string trees, and all that for only EUR 320.
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