Staining new SG body.

[maxcalibur]

I have just acquired a brand new mahogany SG body. I want to stain it black with the grain still visible and it strikes me that it needs protecting as it will dent quite easily. I'm not sure if I want a gloss finish or not but would appreciate any advice on how the best way to finish it (gloss or not) and protect it.

[cynical1]

These are very deep waters you're treading in here... Considering the main reason you finish wood is to protect it from moisture and dirt, let's start out answering your query with a few questions...

First off, how much finishing have you done? Some techniques can be quite stunning when the process is completed, but the materials used can be tricky to use and if mis-applied can yield some pretty ugly work...

I personally prefer wood dye to stains, but there is a learning curve here. There are water based dyes that are more forgiving, or you can use denatured alcohol as a catalyst to reduce grain raising, but your margin of error drops significantly as the drying time is significantly reduced...leading to blotching...(see previous paragraph referring to ugly work) The best advice I can offer on using wood dyes is that many light coats are easier to manage then one heavy dark one.

Wood stains allow use of a pre-stain wood conditioner. This helps you with achieving a more even stain color.

Second question: Why Black? Normally, red and black are the two worst colors to work with. Not that it can't be done, but considering mahogany is a dark wood to begin with, trying to apply a black semi-transparent stain does present challenges. Make sure you hit the lumber yard and grab plenty of mahogany scraps to practice on before you start applying the finish to your guitar.

Third question: How abusive do you plan to get with this guitar...and do you have Tone Nazi tendencies?

Most guitars produced over the past 30 odd years have been finished with some sort of poly or catalyst finish. Lacquer, while easy to work with and very forgiving in touch-ups, is rather toxic, and not the strongest finish in the world.

While lacquer is somewhat easier to buff out, polys and catalysts can be buffed out to a high gloss as well. If you're looking for something a bit more subtle, I always liked a gloss coat under a satin final coat. It doesn't have the shiny gloss on top, but when the light hits it right the grain just jumps out at you. And don't run from a straight satin finish if that's what you really like. It does help cover a multitude of sins.

Some folks here swear by oil finishes. While they are easy to apply, I personally don't feel they offer the protection needed on wood you are going to sweat all over and potentially leave in a puddle of beer on your basement floor... I would never recommend oil as a finish on a neck...but again...opinions vary on that subject.

So...if you have a specific look you're going for we can ask more questions to cloud the waters for you...

Happy Trails -

Cynical One

[sumgai]

Mar 16, 2010 7:48:18 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

...... and potentially leave in a puddle of beer on your basement floor.

Hah! Looks like ash has started an epidemic!

[maxcalibur]

First: Not a whole lot of finishing, have made one coffee table from pine with one layer of stain and finished one guitar with spray paint and lacquer as a bit of an experimental project. I did however learn the way of many light coats. As for different types of stain/dye I think that would need more discussion.

Second: Has to be black. This has been heavily designed and colour is important.

Third: Very abusive! This guitar is not only going to be coloured but physically cut, drilled and routed in certain places too. Tone will have to come from good parts, pickups, electronics and my amp.

Is something like a lacquer/poly/catalyst necessary? I'm not sure I have the tools and skills to get a perfect finish.

I don't think I want a satin finish at all so maybe gloss is the way to go! I really am quite lost on this. May be best to get a professional to do this part for me and do all the physical modding and electronics myself. We'll see how I feel when I've got enough info on how to do it!

[cynical1]

Mar 16, 2010 16:48:23 GMT -5 maxcalibur said:

First: Not a whole lot of finishing, have made one coffee table from pine with one layer of stain and finished one guitar with spray paint and lacquer as a bit of an experimental project. I did however learn the way of many light coats. As for different types of stain/dye I think that would need more discussion.

All is not lost. Trans-tint wood dyes can be mixed with water to allow slower dry times. Follow the link for some insight and good tips on getting started.

Remember, black can be a tricky dye job, especially on mahogany, but it isn't impossible. Worse case is to perform some light sanding after you apply too much dye to bring some of the grain back. As I said before, find some scrap pieces of mahogany to test and practice on.

Second: Has to be black. This has been heavily designed and colour is important.

...fair enough...see above again...

Third: Very abusive! This guitar is not only going to be coloured but physically cut, drilled and routed in certain places too. Tone will have to come from good parts, pickups, electronics and my amp.

Is something like a lacquer/poly/catalyst necessary? I'm not sure I have the tools and skills to get a perfect finish.

Not a problem. I would avoid lacquers. While they're cheap and easy to use, they won't take serious abuse as well as a poly or catalyst.

For ease of use and access, a spray spar urethane will work. If you feel adventurous you can go to any auto paint store and purchase some hard epoxy, or other comparable finish sold on your side of the pond. Even if you don't have access to a spray gun and compressor, a Preval device can work in a pinch.

I don't think I want a satin finish at all so maybe gloss is the way to go! I really am quite lost on this. May be best to get a professional to do this part for me and do all the physical modding and electronics myself. We'll see how I feel when I've got enough info on how to do it!

Gloss is cool. Polys can be buffed out just like lacquer. It takes a bit more elbow grease, but it is doable.

Doing this yourself is not as hard as you may think...but, if you don't have access to somewhere that you can spray then a professional is a viable option.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[sumgai]

max,

You know, you aren't too far away from fellow GuitarNut flateric. You might drop him a PM and see if he might be willing to help you out on this project.

Just a thought, lonely though it was.....




sumgai

[maxcalibur]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. I've just finished my end of year exams so have the time to devote to this project again.

I think (unless anyone can persuade me differently) I will stain the guitar myself. If someone could outline the steps that would be great. Also to apply light coats, do I have to dilute the dye or just apply less at a time? I know cynical1 recommended TransTint but I'm not sure how readily available in the UK that is. I'll have a look. Otherwise, what would be a good call on a stain/dye? Should I use an NGR one?

However giving it a hard gloss/lacquer coating afterwards is something I'm not sure I'm ready to do considering I want a perfect outcome and don't have access to any spraying facilities.

Lastly and slightly separately, some of the frets on the guitar are slightly raised on the edges as shown in the photo below. Is this something I should get seen to straight away before doing anything else with this body?

At some point I will probably be asking questions on where to drill holes for a bridge etc but I suppose I'll tackle that when I get there!

[newey]

Assuming the neck has to also be finished, I'd have the fretwork done first. Just based on the general philosophy of "mechanics first, cosmetics second".

The nut installation, however, should wait until after the headstock is done. I'd tape off a small "footprint" area where the nut goes, however, to avoid possible adhesion problems later.

[maxcalibur]

Do you think those frets need working? There's only a few that are raised up slightly and not quite enough to get a fingernail under.

[sumgai]

Jun 5, 2010 9:39:38 GMT -5 maxcalibur said:

Do you think those frets need working? There's only a few that are raised up slightly and not quite enough to get a fingernail under.

Well, if you're gonna play slide, then I'd be comfortable with leaving the frets raised up as they are. But if you're gonna play guitar, then I'd think that it'd be much easier if the frets were laying all the way down in their slots, where they're supposed to be.

HTH



sumgai

[cynical1]

Jun 5, 2010 9:39:38 GMT -5 maxcalibur said:

Do you think those frets need working?

In a word...yes. As setting the action will be problematic...along with the pieces of lost flesh once you start playing.

How did you mount those frets...or, who did them for you? Looks like they not radiused properly and were hammered in with a tapping motion...which will never set a fret properly. If you paid someone, take it back and have them set it properly...or get your money back.

If you did it, no problem, they just need some re-work.

For reference, hammering frets in is not exactly easy...there is a learning curve...trust me... The Cliff Notes on this is to slightly over bend your frets, tap them into the slot for alignment, then give it a good whack dead center to set it. One blow, done correctly, should set your fret cleanly into the slot. Make sure you use a fretting hammer, or find a dual head hammer with brass\plastic striking surfaces.


Like this one...

You can also buy a fret press, or a clever tool from Stew-Mac...but if this is the only neck you have, and don't plan to make a career out of this, you might want to consider the other option... Find a professional to set them for you. It costs the same as the tools, and it's done when you pick it up.


Clever Stew-Mac tool...

From the picture, I'd say your slots were cut for larger frets. There will be some air under your frets when properly mounted, but this isn't the end of the world.

One other tip. When hammering your frets, take some painters tape (the blue stuff, or a low tack tape...as you don't want to be scraping tape gunk off your fretboard) and cover the fretboard with several layers of tape to protect it. If your aim really sucks consider some thin cardboard taped down to protect the fretboard.

You will also need a good jig, or something to support the neck from the back as you hammer away at the top.

You probably haven't ruined the frets, and you might be able to still set them as they are. Pulling them might work if they're not in too deep. Pulling them with a tool will probably ruin a good percentage of them, so consider your options.

You might even think of picking up a set of pre-bent frets if you don't have the tool to radius them in stock lengths. I prefer the Fender 9-1/2" sets myself, but everyone is different.

Good luck and feel free to ask more questions if I just glossed over something here.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[maxcalibur]

Thanks. I bought the body quite a while ago from a dealer already fretted but haven't touched it since. I think it may have been too long ago to call him up and start saying I'm not happy with it but I'll see and I think I'll have a look at getting a professional to do it too.

When I've got the the money to spare on being able to practice these things then I should get into it myself but only being able to afford the one neck makes me wary of my ability.

[cynical1]

There's no shame is differing to a professional. Both of my projects require fretting...and as it's been 10 years since I've re-fretted a neck I have my reservations as well...but being a cheap b@stard I'll probably go ahead and hammer them in this summer...

Good luck.

HTC1

[maxcalibur]

Good news. The guy who sold it to me was friendly and said he'll take it back and sort it out.

Now I'm just gonna have to decide on parts. I don't want it to get too expensive but I need everything (except electronics) for this guitar so if anyone has had any good or bad experiences with parts (or brands who supply them) that would be good.

I think I'll use a seperate tailpiece and bridge setup. I'm not sure about tuning heads although they do have to be silver. I also haven't yet been able to find the "Treble Rhythm" washer that goes on Gibson pickup switches with silver writing on black background (only found gold writing so far).

[cynical1]

You're lucky the fellow who sold you the parts will make it right. Keep in mind, just about EVERY replacement neck will require a certain amount of tweaking to make it right with your guitar...but as long as all the frets are down and the neck isn't warped it not something insurmountable.

As far as parts go, I picked up quite a few of my parts for my projects on eBay. I knew what I wanted, and was patient enough to wait for the auctions to go my way. I probably saved on average between 40%-75% on what I would have paid for new parts of the same caliber. The electronics (pickups were all eBay) and necks were the only "new" items I bought...but all the wiring came out of surplus monitor cables...

Just make a list of what you want and be patient.

HTC1

[chuck]

the Schaller bridge / tail piece unit with fine tuners is a cool option that is a bit out of the ordinary.

you only have to drill 2 holes to mount it , and it looks great too.

[D2o]

Jun 14, 2010 11:02:08 GMT -5 chuck said:

the Schaller bridge / tail piece unit with fine tuners is a cool option that is a bit out of the ordinary.

you only have to drill 2 holes to mount it , and it looks great too.

My goodness, Chuck ... where are our manners?

At 12 posts, you're already an old hat ... yet I don't think any of us properly welcomed you.

WELCOME to GN2!

D2o

[chuck]

thank you for the warm welcome .
i am happy to be here.

its always great to find a group of other gear we tone junkies to talk shop with ;D

[maxcalibur]

Hi,

I've got the guitar back, frets reset and perfectly done so that's good and I'm ready to start this thing properly.

I spoke to someone today who said it would be very hard to stain black and maybe to go for a solid black instead. What do you think? Is that something I could do myself then get someone else to lacquer if afterwards?

Thanks

[chuck]

why did they say it would be so hard to stain it black ?

[newey]

Any sort of semi-transparent finish is harder than a solid color. With the trans, your coating has to be even so that the grain shows through consistently across the piece. With a solid color, once you've got it well-coated, a little more here or there won't make any difference.

Also, one can (and should) use a sandable primer under a solid color. The primer exposes any flaws in the wood, which you then sand out and reprimer, sanding again until you get a smooth undercoat- then the color goes on top. With a stain, the wood has to be good to go from the start- you don't have the same opportunity for fine adjustment.

I doubt you can find someone to lacquer your stain job for much less than they would charge to do it all. Most refinishers aren't going to want to have their work depend on the quality of your stain job underneath. I'd say you need to make a decision to either DIY the whole thing, or farm the whole job out to a pro.

Mind you, I'm not trying to discourage you from staining it yourself. It's not undoable or anything. But if it's your first go-round at this sort of thing, and if it's a quality guitar body that you don't want to have to resand multiple times until you get it right, then you may want to consider other options.

[chuck]

sanding wood , or sanding primer is still sanding ....

staining wood isnt rocket science ... practice a bit on scrap wood before tackling the SG , and you should be fine.

just be sure to know your limitations , and dont bite off more than you can chew .

[maxcalibur]

Well, I think I might be biting off more than I can chew.

The reason he said a stain might be harder is that its mahogany so will soak up lots of the stain, making it harder to correct if it goes wrong.

I've sort of realised that staining/painting is the last thing I'm going to do with this guitar as I'm going to physically alter the body too so that at least needs doing first. Would appreciate any more input though.

I think I want to go for a separate bridge and tail piece although is this harder to mount? I'm worried that going a tiny bit wrong in the spacing or placing will mess up the whole thing!

[cynical1]

To get a true black semi-transparent the vehicle of choice is a wood dye. Wood dyes can use either water or denatured alcohol as the vehicle.

Black is tricky in that you need to apply enough to color, but not opaque. If you use water this can be easier, as you have a longer dry time and can wipe some of the dye away before it sets.

Water as a catalyst will also raise the grain, thereby necessitating some sanding...and potentially skewing your finish...so a second coat is required, process repeats...there is a bit of a learning curve, and the results might not live up to expectations.

Using alcohol does not raise the grain, but the drying time is much quicker and the odds of blotching a finish go up accordingly.

Basically, the semi-transparent finish can be done, but it's a bit trickier then a more traditional color.

I've done a few, but never really liked them...and definitely didn't bid them high enough... One thing I do use black wood dye for is to accentuate the grain before applying the final color. For example, on a quilted maple you apply a light black finish and let it dry and set. Take steel wool or a 3M pad and smooth it back out. Then apply a blue or red or green or whatever over the black. This really makes the quilting jump out.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[chuck]

the black stain sounds like a fun challenge ;D

precision is key when measuring , marking , and drilling for your bridge ... take your time , and triple check everything BEFORE you drill , and you should be fine.

but again , know your limitations , and dont be afraid to get a pro to help with the things you are not sure about.

having an awesome guitar is what matters in the end

[cynical1]

Just so we're not at cross purposes here, let me make clear that in my previous post I was referring to wood dye, not wood stain.

To be precise:


Black TransTint® Dye #26924 - Click me, I'm a link[/size]



There's a good rundown on how to use wood dyes on Joe Woodworker's site

HTC1

[chuck]

oops ... my bad ... i typed stain instead of dye ....
i never said i was smart

[maxcalibur]

I'm not sure about the staining now. I actually think a solid black is going to fit in better with my design. Not to seem ungrateful for all the advice on staining/dyeing but I think it would be better to take advice on painting instead!

With regards to the bridge, I know that it has to be at the right length from the 12th fret but why one some SG's is the bridge angled slightly? Is this something I need to take into account?

[maxcalibur]

Also, should the bottom of the nut be flush with the headstock?

[chuck]

the bridge angle is to get the intonation closer ...
flush with the headstock ?