Dissappointed

[debrad]

After taking the plunge on my "Quieting the Beast" mod, I was disappointed during my first jam session last night to see that I am still buzzing away like crazy.

To make matters worse, the buzz is actually LOUDER in the 2 and 4 positions than it is in the bridge, neck and middle.

I was just going over John's site and noticed a few comments about making sure my pickups were still wired "in phase" after the mod since failing to do so could result in MORE noise and weak tone in the 2 & 4 positions - my diagnosis exactly!

I have a Squier Protone Strat which was not wired "exactly" like John's "stock" Strat diagrams; however, I did wire it up to match his QTB post mod diagram.

Should I adjust the wire connections on the tone pots to match what I previously in the stock set-up?

[wesman]

Cheap solution: Switch the Hot & Ground wires for your mid pup

Not as cheap solution: Buy a Reverse wound reverse polarity middle pup

[debrad]

wesman said:

Not as cheap solution: Buy a Reverse wound reverse polarity middle pup

Let me preface this with a "I'm a complete newbie when it comes to electronics" disclaimer...

If everything was working fine before the mod (aside from the noise I wanted to elliminate...), wouldn't that mean that I have a reverse wound, reverse polarity middle pup or could it be that I was getting noise cancelling from just a reverse wound pup or just a reverse polarity?

I did run through John's troubleshooting tables and everything checked out pretty well...

[StratLover]

My first attempt at shielding was on a Tele and I found that I was'nt completely grounded.
After I checked the ground and made sure everything was in order and soldered well, I buttoned "er up and plugged in to descover 0 noise.
Check this first before you do any re-wire attempts, you might just be surprised as I was.

[CheshireCat]

debrad said:

Let me preface this with a "I'm a complete newbie when it comes to electronics" disclaimer...

If everything was working fine before the mod (aside from the noise I wanted to elliminate...), wouldn't that mean that I have a reverse wound, reverse polarity middle pup or could it be that I was getting noise cancelling from just a reverse wound pup or just a reverse polarity?

I did run through John's troubleshooting tables and everything checked out pretty well...

Well, also, keep in mind, you're dealing with a Squier. No telling what you're dealing with in terms of the quality of the electronics.

Try flipping the leads on the mid as Wesman suggested.

Chesh

[GuyaGuy]

debrad,
do your positions 2 + 4 have both noisy hum AND a thin, nasal sound now? if so, then the middle pickup is probably out of phase, in which case you should swittch the hot and ground leads, as suggested.
otherwise you may want to check your connections for proper soldering, wires contacting that shouldn't, etc. also, if you're new to soldering, you might've killed a potentiomenter while soldering by overheating. i know i sure killed my fair share when i started! ;D

[debrad]

I did a little investigating last night and it looks like my phasing is OK. I also played through a few different patches on my multi-fx unit (Boss GT6) and found that my tone didn't really get "thinner" in the 2 & 4 positions, just dropped in volume a bit.

What I did confirm was that there was at least the same, if not more, noise in the 2 & 4 positions than the 1, 3, and 5 positions AND, on one high gain patch in particular, I got a screaming kind of feedback that made me think of the "microphonic pickups" info on GuitarNuts.

Is it possible that one of the pups has suddenly gone microphonic?

I have a sneaking suspicion that, like StratLover says, I've got a grounding issue or issues. I'm also thinking along the lines of CheshireCat: these are cheap Squier pups and maybe I should just replace those.

Before doing the mod I was seriously considering a set of Bill Lawrence L-280's but now I'm wondering if any upgrade would be better than what I've got (anyone tried out the GFS Vintage Alnico pups - rave reviews on Harmony-Central say these are killer and they're only $45 US!!!)

[lethargytartare]

I can barely count the number of times I've been sure I did everything precisely only to discover after several re-examinations that I'd missed something...a switched wire, a ground lug unwired...most recently I went to hell and back unwiring and rewiring a bass only to discover a bad pot was behind it all...

One thing that helps a lot is to take a pic of the wiring before you start, or draw a map of the existing wiring. That way you always have that to refer back to -- that can help avoid switched wires, phase issues, etc.

Get a DMM/multimeter -- then you can test your pots really quickly -- just remove the wires, and check the resistances.

And then with the DMM test the continuity -- look for every ground point to be continuous with the shielding and the output jack; and conversely check for discontinuity between the hot points and the shielding -- that is, if any points in the circuit are grounding out.

Cheap electronics shouldn't start sounding /worse/ after the QTB -- but they may crap out under the heat of an iron more quickly! I consider myself very good at this stuff, but I burned out a pot on a buddy's guitar that I was rewiring -- cheap pots can get damaged FAST! CTS pots are MUCH tougher...and more expensive.

And if you're sure everything looks right, do the painful thing -- rewire your guitar as though it only has 1 pickup and 1 volume knob. Then add the second pickup, then the third...etc. That's a brute-force way to isolate a problem. It is VERY painful, but it's also highly educational!

ltt

[GuyaGuy]

lethargytartare said:

I can barely count the number of times I've been sure I did everything precisely only to discover after several re-examinations that I'd missed something

amen to that.

re: GFS

go for it. i've not played em but have only heard good things about em. i was gonna get em but my guitar is set up for "asian spacing" (50mm E to E as opposed to 52mm). you may want to measure before getting the GFS pups. the string doesn't have to be directly over the polepiece but it should be over it rather than to the side, so if you get a wider spaced pup, your pole pieces won't "fit" the string spacing. if yr guitar has the narrower "asian" spacing, you could try out the mighty mite alnico pups. i just got a set and really dig em. 5.5 ohms or so, totally vintage sounding but brighter than most strat pups--which suits my basswood guitar, and about the same price as GFS's, i.e. ridiculously low. highly recommended

[debrad]

thanks for the heads up - where do i measure the string spacing?

my squier is about 50mm across the neck pup, 52mm in the middle and just over 55mm at the bridge...

by the way, I tore the "star ground" wiring out of my strat last night - left the shielding in but used the stock wiring. no more noise in the 2 & 4 positions, no squealing feedback but it's still humming in the single coil positions...

one thing I noticed - there was some continuity between the shield and the "hot" lugs on the volume pot (input from switch to volume and hot lead to jack) when I checked it with the ohm meter - does that seem right?

[bam]

nah, debrad, THAT's your problem.
The shield should connect to the ground via the Big Cap, not others.

[debrad]

hmmmmm, I wonder what's making the connection between the hot and the shield

like I said, there is SOME continuity, the needle doesn't drop to 0 but it's not infinite either, probably about 5k-8k.

guess I'll have to tear it all apart again...

[wesman]

......guess I'll have to tear it all apart again...

If you tear it apart six more times you can be part of our
secret society,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


You don't have to be crazy...

But it does help.

[JohnH]

just in case it gives a clue to the cause of the 5k-8k continuity; that is about the resistance that you might expect from one of your pickups, maybe theres a gremlin connecting one where it shouldnt

[GuyaGuy]

debrad said:

thanks for the heads up - where do i measure the string spacing?

my squier is about 50mm across the neck pup, 52mm in the middle and just over 55mm at the bridge...

it sounds like you need "standard spacing pickups."
by "string spacing" i mean the space from E to E, as measured right above pole pieces. just make sure the spacing of the strings matches the spacing of the pickups. the string should generally be over the pole piece; it doesn't have to be in the middle per se. don't assume the string spacing matches the polepiece spacing; that's not always the case on less expensive instruments!

[mr_sooty]

debrad said:

hmmmmm, I wonder what's making the connection between the hot and the shield

like I said, there is SOME continuity, the needle doesn't drop to 0 but it's not infinite either, probably about 5k-8k.

guess I'll have to tear it all apart again...

Basically dude, the QTB mod absolutely DOES work, otherwise this forum probably wouldn't exist. I've done it, and although it's not quite silent (it is on the clean channel) it's MUCH quiter than before. But it did take a couple of attempts. What I founds is that you really need to cover all your controls with insulation tape to make sure they don't touch the sheilding at all. I made a sort of cacoon by putting a strip of tape around the outside of all the controls, then some tape over the top. Hard to explain actually. But yeah, it's gotta be that something's touching something else.

Personally, I'd avoid swapping your pickup wires over, cos it's really easy to break the very fine hairlike copper wire from the coil that ties off at that point. I broke one of the ones on my bridge and it was a major drama to fix it. If you do swap the wires, just be real careful of those little threads, they're pretty hard to see!

[debrad]

GuyaGuy said:

it sounds like you need "standard spacing pickups."
by "string spacing" i mean the space from E to E, as measured right above pole pieces. just make sure the spacing of the strings matches the spacing of the pickups. the string should generally be over the pole piece; it doesn't have to be in the middle per se. don't assume the string spacing matches the polepiece spacing; that's not always the case on less expensive instruments!

Thanks Guyaguy, those measurements were string to string but I wasn't sure at what point I should be measuring: over the neck pup, the middle pup, bridge pup, the bridge itself, etc. Perhaps I can confirm the spacing of the pole pieces on whatever replacement I get before actually buying.

Mr_Sooty, thanks for your note as well - your advice is well taken in terms of insulating the circuitry. I may be pulling this beast appart to swap out the pots (the originals are 500k which may be contributing to the trebly tone I've always struggled with on this guitar) at which time I will definitely tidy up my cavity shield and wrap everything up with electrical tape.

By the way, I haven't had a chance to play this thing at anything other than headphone level since going back to the original wiring so I'm not sure if the foil alone is giving me any better noise reduction but I will keep you posted on this seemingly endless saga!

Thanks for all you input, I REALLY appreciate it!