Humbucker sound without humbuckers

[yagon]

Hello all,

Seeing guitarnut's S-Tastic strat wiring has really opened up a new world to me. I'm very much a novice and I'd like to learn more.

If a humbucker is two single coils wired together, can I use a strat's existing pickups (ie 3 single coils) to get a humbucker sound by modifying the wiring?

Do any of the S-Tastic positions reflect a humbucker wiring setup (and humbucker sound)?

Thanks for your help.

R

[CheshireCat]

The sound comes from the coils next to each other. EMG has a circuit that can simulate a humbucker sound from a single coil. I forget the acronym offhand, but I think it's the EMG-SPC.

You might also consider a Seymour Duncan mini-humbucker, such as the JB Jr., Lil' 59, or Lil Demon.

Chesh

[yagon]

Thanks for your feedback.

Is one of the S-Tatic wiring positions the same as a humbucker, but with the single coils being physicially separated?

R

[bam]

No. S-Tastic configuration offers a setup in which you can get the most-often-used positions in a Strat & Tele. (From Strats: N only, B only, or M+B; from Tele: N+B positions)

Humbucking configuration is 2 coils (1 normal 1 RWRP) in series; In a standard Strats it would be N+M or M+B in series, but since single coils are not specifically designed for humbucking, don't expect that much.

If you want a real humbucker sound, at least get a stacked humbucker or mini-humbucker .. Fender Lace Sensors, SD Cool/Hot/Vintage Rail, DiMarzio SH1/2/3, etc..

[xcernfsi]

Two single coil pickups can be wired to humbuck if they're reverse wound/reverse polarity, they don;t have to be adjacent to have this effect.

[wolf]

yagon
Strat and Strat style guitars (for the last 20 years or so) have had their middle pickups with Reverese Winding and Reverse Polarity (RWRP). So, position 2 and 4 on the pickup switch will be humbucking with the pickups in parallel. Nothing wrong with that - it's a bright sound ("Sultans of Swing" = position 4 on a Strat).
A humbucker's "full, warm, overdirven" sound is obtained by wiring the 2 coils in series. In a Strat's case this would be Neck and Middle in series and Middle & Bridge in series. This arrangement does NOT come standard on a Strat.

I have a fairly simply diagram of rewiring a 3 single coil guitar
www.1728.com/guitar2.htm
There are many others on the Internet. Basically, it is really versatile for a 3 pickup guitar to have the choices of single coils; coils in parallel and colils in series.

[CheshireCat]

The term "Humbucker" has two tangent meanings. First is the property of hum-cancellation, which is what the humbucker was originally designed to do: "buck the hum" in 1950's parlance.

The second meaning refers to the timbre created by the effect of having two coils next to each other at such a tight aperature. The doubling quality of the "humbucker sound" is created by reading the strings at two seperate places along the string length. That's what people refer to and most often mean when they say humbucking.

Ergo . . .

xcernfsi said:

Two single coil pickups can be wired to humbuck if they're reverse wound/reverse polarity, they don;t have to be adjacent to have this effect.

. . . To get the hun-canceling benefits? Correct. To sound like a humbucker? Incorrect. The coils have to be immediately adjacent to create that sound.

That distinction is important because, as best as I can tell (assuming I read the first post correctly), the author wanted to create the timbre of a humbucker while only have single coils to work with (not that hum-cancellation wouldn't be a nice bonus).

Chesh

[wolf]

Chesh
Seems we are duelling over a lot of message board topics lately.
Have you ever played a guitar that has the middle and bridge single coils wired in series? It sure has one Hell of an output and can create a full, overdiven sound. I don't think a humbucker's close proximity of its 2 coils is the primary reason for its distinctive sound. I think it is mainly due to the series wiring.
Anyone else have a comment on this?

[Trey]

I'm inclined to agree with Chesh...

Wiring two single coils in series doesn't equal humbucker tone, just like coil-splitting a humbucker doesn't give all the characteristics of a single-coil. While the spacing of a humbuckers two coils may not be the main factor in creteing that humbucker tone, it still is a factor. And becuse of that no two singlecoils will be able to equal the tone of a humbucker, you can get close but you ain't goin nail it.

Your best bet would be to get one of the stacked humbucker model pickups, that will get you closest to the humbucker sound.

[JohnH]

This is becoming an interesting thread!

For another 2-cents worth, have you guys come across this article before?:

www.buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/index.htm

Its by a german chap called Helmuth Lemme. Its well worth a read, and argues tha the main characteristic affecting pickup sound is related to resonance of the coil inductance/external capacitance and other components. Pick-up coils in series have twice the inductance of a single coil and a quarter of that of parrallel coils. The article also has a link to a table of results for a range of pickups.

[yagon]

Thanks for all your great feedback - I'm learning lots.

So if I understand correctly, positions 2 & 4 of a strat are two single coils in parallel with RWRP. A humbucker is two coils immediately adjacent to each other (physically) with RWRP wired in series.

What is the tone of two single coils (say bridge & middle of a strat) with RWRP in series (ie, wired like a humbucker)? Can anyone point me to an MP3 of this sound?

R

[yagon]

Another question:

Do these alternate wiring systems provide usable new tones? Are many of the alternate sounds unusable?

R

[wolf]

JohnH
Interesting article. Good find.

Sorry to correct you but in terms of inductance, if we take a humbucker wired in series as having a value of 1, then either single coil has ½ of that inductance and the coils wired in parallel will have ¼ the inductance of the series wiring.

You said:
Pick-up coils in series have twice the inductance of a single coil and a quarter of that of parrallel coils.
You got the first part correct but the series wiring would have 4 times the inductance of the parallel wiring.
*******************************************
yagon
Wow - you posted while I was typing this reply to JohnH.

In a humbucker circuit, remember that only 1 of the coils must be RWRP. If both are, you don't get hum cancelling.

In a regular Strat, positions 2 &4 ARE humbucker circuits (at least electronically speaking. Purists feel that the pickups MUST be touching to be a true humbucker. I don't ). Anyway, this is a "humbucker" wired in parallel. Most people think of a humbucker as a series wired, high output "crunch monster". As far as a Strat having 2 single coils wired in series, I don't know where you 'd find MP3's.

I checked out the S-Tastic wiring article and it might not be what you want. Why not look at the "Strat -Lovers Strat article":

This gives you lots of sound options and a description of what the tones sound like.

[wolf]

Yagon
Wow - yet another posting.
I'd say all of the sounds in the Strat-Lover's Strat wiring are quite useful.

[JohnH]

Wolf - thanks, you are right of course. and thats what I meant to say. I had a problem with my brain/computer interface!

[CheshireCat]

wolf said:

Chesh
Seems we are duelling over a lot of message board topics lately.

Which ones were those? (Besides this one . . .)

wolf said:

Have you ever played a guitar that has the middle and bridge single coils wired in series? It sure has one Hell of an output and can create a full, overdiven sound. I don't think a humbucker's close proximity of its 2 coils is the primary reason for its distinctive sound. I think it is mainly due to the series wiring.

Well, I would fully concur that both scenarios you outlined produce a meaty tone, to be sure. Without question.

However, that doubled effect of having two coils with slightly different sounds coming from the same pickup is a big part of the sound. For instance, does a humbucker with it's coils in parallel sound more like a single coil or a humbucker with it's coils in series?

Now, that said, sure, one set of two coils in series will sound a lot like another set of two coils in series, principly because both are examples of two coils in series, but if you were to isolate the analysis to just one pickup selection, comparing a single coil to a humbucker (and paralleled the coils no less), then the big difference between the two would be the doubling effect of two coils creating a slightly different tonality due to aperature rather than a function of it being in series (which it wouldn't be).

For instance, that is one particular complaint of the Seymour Duncan mini-humbuckers, that there isn't enough distance between the pole pieces to create that distinctive humbucker sound, and that they sound more like single coils than humbuckers, because the pole pieces are so close together that you don't get that clean seperation of the poles pieces to create that variance of timbre between the coils.

In the instance of the mini-humbucker, so the argument goes, because the sets of pole pieces are so close together, they sound so much alike that you don't get much distinction, and any pronounced benefit of the doubling effect is lost.

Of course, I've never had that particular issue myself, but that does strike at the heart of my point.

Chesh

[bam]

I think I should add that true humbuckers usually has better sensitivity to harmonic overtones. Dunno why, but I think it somehow relates to the distance between the 2 SCs.. I've tried putting my Strat's N+B SCs side by side to make a HB out of 2 SCs, and the results are completely different than pos.4 in series in normal Strat..

[dunkelfalke]

as far as i know, splitted humbuckers won't sound like single coils because the coils of the humbucker are very low output coils

[GuyaGuy]

"Any two pickups can be wired or switched together to make a humbucker. A Fender P-Bass pickup is humbucking, for example, even though it's split and sitting at different places under the strings."

dan erlewine wrote that. and he's smart.


any 2 coils can be combined:

2 coils in parallel, same polarity/winding=old-style in between start positions, noisy

2 coils in parallel, one RW/RP=new-style in between positons, less noisy

2 coils in series=stronger, mid-heavy, hum free sound but not a traditional "humbucker" sound (brian may uses SCs in series)

AND FINALLY...
2 coils in series, one RW/RP and out of phase=HUMBUCKER (as in thick, mid- and bass-heavy, beefy tone ala gibson)

i prefer to differentiate between "humbucker," as a type of wiring AND sound, and "hum-cancelling," which can be done in different ways.

will combining 2 SCs come close to a HB sound? sure, why not. sorta like split or parallel HBs--good nuff but not excactly. will 2 SCs hooked up to be a HB sound exactly like a gibson PAF? no sir. it will sound like a humbucker but for the fine-tuned ear there will be differences:
1.) there is the difference in space between coils and polepieces.
2.) an HBs' coil on the non-adjustable slugs side is weaker.
3.) 2 SCs of, say, 6K ohms linked together in series=12K., stronger than a traditional HB (but not so untypical for shredders). as dunkelfalke points out, the individual coils of a PAF-style pup are weaker--about 4K.
4.) a HB usually has a metal baseplate and a chrome cover, both of which define its tone
5.) lots of other reasons


cheshire cat: i'm not familiar w the SD mini-HBs but generally minis are brighter anyway, not neccessarily due possibly in part to the pole spacing but mostly because they have fewer winds and a lower ohm value.

bam: "true humbuckers usually [have] better sensitivity to harmonic overtones." no way! humuckers cancel noise AND part of the actual sound being picked up from the strings. ESPECIALLY harmonics. harmonics are in the mid/treble range which is strangled to death by all of those winds on a HB. HBs are louder, beefier, and cover up finger flubs better, and that's why i don't like em. and you can't make me!

[wolf]

Chesh
As far as the other topic "duel", there is the one about electronics suppliers. ;D

And just to confuse the topic even further, The Seymour Duncan single-coil-size humbuckers (Hot Rails for example) don't sound like a "real" humbucker because they are trying to squeeze a traditional humbucker down to half its size. (2 pounds of apples in a one pound bag so to speak). To me a HotRail does not sound like a single coil. In series they sound very muddy and IMHO are only good for distortion. Wired in parallel, they sound a little bit better for a clean sound - but not great.

For coil cut sounds, I certainly agree with Dunkelfalke and GuyaGuy, that if you aren't using a "monster" humbucker (DiMarzio X2N, SD Invader, etc), the single coil sound will be weak. SD Hot Rails (to me) aren't even worth wiring for coil cut options.

GuyaGuy said:
2 coils in series, one RW/RP and out of phase=HUMBUCKER (as in thick, mid- and bass-heavy, beefy tone ala gibson)

That is yet another issue. The 2 coils are out of phase because of oppostie wiring and opposite magnetic polarity. However, this is not the same as a humbucker out of phase with itself.

Well, that's enough confusion for one posting.

[GuyaGuy]

wolf said:

The 2 coils are out of phase because of oppostie wiring and opposite magnetic polarity. However, this is not the same as a humbucker out of phase with itself.

right, thanks for clarifying. and to clarify even MORE, i'll point out that it's also not the same as out of phase w/ another pickup.


as for getting a SC sound out of a HB or vice versa, i think it's basically a question of what kind of sound you want. 2 SCs linked as a HB will sound different than a typical HB, a coilcut rail won't sound like a tele. but for practice it's probably good enough. or for a gig, where you don't want multiple guitars on stage and you're playing thru some crappy PA controlled by a sound guy who inevitably has the bass cranked and the mics way too low and is too busy chatting with his buds to care about amplifying the sound that the actual musician is creating. that kind of thing.
up till recently, most of my guitars were 2 HB models w/ various switching capabilities, and the main problem i found was balancing the PUs. the HB tends to overpower the SC sound.
so my advice is for splittable coils is: INDIVIDUAL VOLUME CONTROLS

[RJB]

OK not to stir the pot too much. First as an electrical engineer, the points made about hum-cancelling, are indeed correct. Any two coils RWRP tied together series or parallel will be hum cancelling.

I have a Tele with the series wiring, I've recently gone guitar shopping, and tried LOTS.

A Tele in series sounds similar to a Tele in parallel. Just a bit louder and darker, think rolling of ther tone control. A Strat neck/mid in series doesn't sound as dark to me, and actually sounds more HB like than a Tele. But still not the true HB tone, kind of halfway there.

A true HB doesn't sound as dark to me but more middy. I'm just guessing that this is do to the coils being close enough to interact with each other, but not act as one, as in the mini HB.

Also mentioned was how a HB split doesn't sound like a SC. Again magnetic interaction, AND most tap switches short out the lower coil. This will actually induce a reverse magnetic field effectively dampening string vibration itself.

[JohnH]

It would be best to decide based on hearing the sounds!

Deaf Eddie has a colection of short sound clips for his Strat with heaps of series, single and parallel combos. It is quite instructive:

www.deaf-eddie.net/samples/samples.html

[bam]

1. RJB/Wolf: "Any two coils RWRP tied together series or parallel will be hum cancelling."
2. Guya: "and to clarify even MORE, i'll point out that it's also not the same as out of phase w/ another pickup."

..that's why humbuckers have the ability to emphasize harmonic overtones rather than diminishing them, even if its output is lower than common SCs. "Humcanceling" is not the same as "out-of-phase". In physical terms, coils in a HB wiring are actually in-phase.

(Ever wonder why palm harmonic-based feedback squeals are easier to do on HBs rather than SCs ?)

[wolf]

RJB
Just a small correction - only one coil can be RWRP. If both are, then they have the same winding and polarity and won't be hum-cancelling.

bam Yes you are right in the sense that humbucker coils (when wired in standard fashion - series or parallel) are in phase - that is to say they won't have that weak, squawky inside-out sound. So, they are in-phase sonically or acoustically but out of phase in terms of winding and polarity. I think I'd better do a web search and see if I can find some definitions that we all can agree on.

And RJB you seem to know your electronics. Welcome to the board.

[wolf]

Well here's what John Atchley has to say about pickups:

[JohnH]

RJB said:

Also mentioned was how a HB split doesn't sound like a SC. Again magnetic interaction, AND most tap switches short out the lower coil. This will actually induce a reverse magnetic field effectively dampening string vibration itself.

Well that’s very interesting. When trying to make a single coil sound by by-passing one coil of an HB, it could create a loop in the by-passed coil that allows currents to be generated, limited only by the coil impedance, sucking power by inductive means from the string. So even though the by-passed coil is not adding to the sound signal, it is affecting the sound. by inductively damping the string. This would affect high harmonics more. (yes I am also an engineer).

I realized that I could do an experiment My 2 HB guitar has switching for 30 sounds, that includes picking each of the four coils separately. (I do this to sort out hum-canceling and phase issues in combinations). Taking my neck pickup, one of the single coil choices involves bypassing the other coil, while the other connects only the active coil, without connecting the first coil at all. Using headphones, and fretting the top string at a position such that the neck pickup was exactly in the middle of he vibrating string (so each coil gets the same signal), I listened to the two ‘single coil’ sounds….

I was surprised to find that the pure single coil, without the other bypassed, was noticeably brighter . That suggests that bypassing coils causes damping that loses some sound, and it is better to totally disconnect a coil to remove its affect. Learn something every day..!