Bridge-Neck out of phase: pos. 4 on strat?

[JFrankParnell]

I'd like to try the "bridge-neck out of phase" tone in my strat. I find position 4(middle-bridge) is the least usefull tone, so, if possible, i'd like that to select b-n-oop. Thoughts? thx

[JohnH]

There's two ways to wire pickups out of phase (OOP), being series (coils wired end to end) and parallel (which is what the standard Strat in phase combos use). Series will sound louder and not as thin as parallel. Within each type, much variation is possible by controlling the relative volumes of each pickup, or partly bypassing one or other.

To really explore OOP, it is best to have series and parallel switching, as a seperate toggle or push/pull, plus a further switch to change phase of one pickup, neck is best. That way you can keep all your options that you have and add a heap of new ones.

It is not possible to just change the B+M combo on a Strat to an out of phase B-N without changing the switch, or changing other settings. You could get a 4 pole super-switch, then there are many possibilities.

If you just want to try the B, N OOP, without doing a full rewire or adding extra stuff, you can do the following, to get the B-N OOP parallel sound, but it will change the order of combos:

reverse the two wires of the bridge pickup
swap the positions to the neck pickup hot wire and the middle pickup hot wire.

You will now have
M
N+M
N
N-B
B

The bridge and neck combo is OOP, and the others will all sound the same as before except they are in a different order.

If that is workable for you, it is worth a try because it is easy to put it back if you dont like it, or move onwards to a more versatile scheme if you do like it. It is likely to sound thin however, so it is ideal for playing the intro to Pink Floyds 'Wish you were here'

John

[ijustwannastrat]

To quote a Nut,
"Parallel Out Of Phase = POOP, and sounds like such."

Is there any validity in this? I have no idea.

I seriously think that somebody needs to scientifically test different methods of doing the same thing. Such as the Peter Green Mod vs. swapping the hot and common. And PooP vs SooP. SooP Bridge -> Neck vs. SooP Neck -> Bridge.

I don't have the means to test this. Where are scientists when you ACTUALLY need them?

[JohnH]

To hear some sounds, check out this, from a mod on a Brian May guitar. This provided a full range of series and parallel options, in and out of phase.

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=sounds&action=display&thread=4689&page=1

[JFrankParnell]

ok, that modded switch wire thing looks like fun and easy luthing ;D

But i got confused here, strat #2 and #4 are ip or oop and paralell or series?

I should say, although i guess it doesnt matter, MIM, neck/middle =texas specials, bridge=SD lil 59. Yeah, that funky woody tone in #2 is cool. From those sound files, i do like the oop ones for their funk.

[JohnH]

Standard Strat settings in 2 and 4 positions are parallel and in phase.

[JFrankParnell]

May 14, 2010 21:04:04 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Standard Strat settings in 2 and 4 positions are parallel and in phase.

So,strat position2 is trk10, part 2?

I wanted to start a little chart of tones that I might like to play with. Some of the info came from the site in the pic. Also, I took the liberty of naming your above nb-poop mod "Switcheroo Mod" ;D if it doesnt already have a name!

I'd be interested in any other signature phase/series/paralell options that might be interesting. I'm not sure i could do that whole 6 switch thing, though!

[JFrankParnell]

May 14, 2010 16:18:38 GMT -5 JohnH said:

To really explore OOP, it is best to have series and parallel switching, as a seperate toggle or push/pull, plus a further switch to change phase of one pickup, neck is best. That way you can keep all your options that you have and add a heap of new ones.

Wow, I've googling all night and morning on this stuff Is there a published mod that does what you say above? Keeps your five strat sounds and adds series/paralell and ip/oop with 2 new toggles?

[JohnH]

no need to go googling far from home, but take into account that any design that uses push/pull switches can also use dpdt toggles instead:

This is probably the closest, from the original GN site with tweaks by me:

Strat-lovers Strat

Here's another

Strat with two volume controls

This one does more, but has three extra switches:

Strat Dual sound

This from Chris K - see particularly last diagram of first post. Only one extra switch here for S/P, but a phase switch could be added easily:

S-None switch

All of the above use the standard Fender 5-way, with normal options until you start pulling/flicking switches.
cheers
John

[wolf]

And not to plug my own website (but I will) ;D
Here are two more modifications:
www.1728.com/guitar2.htm
www.1728.com/guitar2a.htm

[JFrankParnell]

Wolf, that first one looks pretty cool. Lets see if i have it straight:
3 middle switches are individual pup on/offs? these give your original strat sounds plus all 3 paralell?
Then you have a series switch, giving you all combos in series?
Then a phase swich giving you all combos oop?
cuz that would be cool.

John, why does 'double barrel' swtich eliminate a tone control? is that a neccessary part of the wiring? And i wonder if the last 2 positions on the 2nd switch could be swapped? Giving you m>n series inphase on position 5 (i assume that m>n series inphase would be a real hot lead postion, therefore, intuitively the same as pos 5 on the standard switch).

[newey]

why does 'double barrel' swtich eliminate a tone control? is that a neccessary part of the wiring? And i wonder if the last 2 positions on the 2nd switch could be swapped? Giving you m>n series inphase on position 5 (i assume that m>n series inphase would be a real hot lead postion, therefore, intuitively the same as pos 5 on the standard switch).

JFP-

You hadn't mentioned the "Double Barrel" scheme before, but that's certainly another option.

We had a long discussion with member Treguiers about that mod recently. He did it and was very happy with it:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=4558&page=1

The tone control is eliminated in that design because of the need to make space for the second 5-way switch (and its wiring). At the original GuitarNuts site, John Atchley doesn't say whether he tried any other options to fit that switch while retaining the tone control, but I can imagine it would be tough.

You should be able to swap positions 4 and 5 on the superswitch to change the order of the selections. Treguiers indicated he liked the M*B quite a bit, he described it as a " '70's rock sound". Essentially, it's like having a bridge humbucker with the coils widely spaced apart.

[wolf]

jfrankparnell
The biggest difference between those two circuits is that the Ultra Strat™ wiring has several "dead" spots. If you try to get all 3 parallel with that circuit, the guitar will go "dead".
The Super Strat™ switching allows any combination but as you may have noticed is a lot tougher to wire.

[JFrankParnell]

Wolf, but did i get the switching positions correct?
3 middle switches are individual pup on/offs? these give your original strat sounds plus all 3 paralell?
Then you have a series switch, giving you all combos in series?
Then a phase switch giving you all combos oop?

and, could you use the original 5way (or maybe the superswitch) in place of the 3 pup switches? Just add series and phase switch?

[wolf]

3 middle switches are individual pup on/offs? these give your original strat sounds plus all 3 paralell?
Yes, you can get the 5 original sounds plus all 3 parallel and Neck & Bridge in parallel giving you 7 total sounds.
(Actually - you have an eighth tone option - "OFF" ;D)

Then you have a series switch, giving you all combos in series?
Just like the parallel option, you can get 7 options but don't think this gives you 14 sounds. Single coil Neck, single coil Middle and single coil Bridge sound the same whether the switch is set for series or parallel.


Then a phase switch giving you all combos oop?
No. With that circuit you could get Neck and Bridge Out of Phase or Middle and Bridge Out of Phase but you'd have to add another DPDT switch to get Neck and Middle out of phase. Personally, I don't think it's worth adding the extra switch and I'll wait for others to answer but most people (even John Atchley, founder of this site) share this view.

Don't forget you'll have 4 out of phase sounds:
1) Neck and Bridge Series out of phase
2) Middle and Bridge Series out of phase
3) Neck and Bridge Parallel out of phase
4) Neck and Bridge Parallel out of phase


and, could you use the original 5way (or maybe the superswitch) in place of the 3 pup switches? Just add series and phase switch?
No. The 5 way switch is not that versatile and remember you won't get any of those 3 coils (parallel and series) or Neck and Bridge (parallel and series) sounds. I don't like the 5 way switch and as you may have noticed, when I do these Strat™ mods, I remove the 5 way switch and put the 5 toggle switches in its place.

[JohnH]

I also think that one phase switch is enough, and I prefer to do it on the Neck pup, as on the designs I posted previously.

I built a design very similar to Wolfs second all toggle-switch design a few years ago:
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=3121&page=1
So I can confirm that it is a versatile way of controlling the guitar, and becomes intuitive. But I could understand if you want to retain a 5-way however, since it is sort of what is expected on a Strat.

If you add more phase switches to the toggle designs, you arrive at the 'Brian May', which has three of them (as on sound samples linked above).

John

[JFrankParnell]

I just did your 'switcheroo' mod (traded the neck and mid pup wires). But i realized as i was plugging in to try it that i forgot to change phase on the bridge pup. So, I guess this gives me neck/bridge paralell in phase. Which is real twangy. I'm talkin TWANNNNGGGGY, people!

I'll prolly just leave it like that and put in a phase switch for the neck pup.

You guys are great, thanks for all the help you give everyone

[wolf]

jfrankparnell
Well it seems you've decided on a particular wiring and actually completed it. Congratulations!!!

I don't mean to talk you into yet another wiring (and maybe I should have mentioned this sooner) but I think the most important wiring change to a Strat™ type guitar is putting 2 coils in series, particularly the middle and bridge coils.

Here's a YouTube demonstration of such a circuit. (Actually for the first 1 min 30 sec he just demonstrates the standard 5 sounds so you can just speed right by those):


I wish he had demonstrated the series sounds using distortion but you can get the idea that series wiring a Strat™ really produces a drastic tone change.

[JFrankParnell]

Wolf, I aint done yet!!
Yeah, those series combos sound pretty cool, I'm prolly going to implement them via the double barrel selector, and also, I'm going to try and squeeze in your solo switch. And phase switch, lol.

also yesterday, i deleted one pot and made it master vol, master tone in the bottom 2 holes (i dont like that vol knob in the way of my pinky). I love being able to tone control my Lil 59 in the bridge!

[ashcatlt]

There shouldn't be any need for a "phase flip" just because you moved the pickup. If the fundamentals were in phase when it was in the middle, then they must also be in phase at the neck. Did I miss something?

[JFrankParnell]

ash, i wanted oop ;D but i forgot to switch the wires, in my haste. ima go down to the shack and see what they have for switches.