Does it matter what is in my neck-joint?

[jcgss77]

I know that this has much been talked about, but I have yet to find an answer to this question in the forum anywhere. Before I get to that, I will mention my current project.

I have a Hamer Slammer Special SP-1 (what does the special mean in these guitars mean anyways?) which sports a bolt on neck and wraparound compensated bridge. The pitch is off, with the strings being further from the fretboard at the high frets than it is at the nut. The bridge is all the way down toward the body as far as it can go. I would like to bring the strings closer to the fretboard.

So, upon removing the neck from the body, I am greeted with a skinny black piece of plastic at the bottom of the pocket, near the pup. So upon further thought, it occurs to me that I might be losing some possible sound by having a plastic spacer and a big space here. My thought is to apply a piece of wood with the pitch the plastic shim is giving the guitar.

My questions: is the current technique robbing the guitar of sound that I will be hearing if I make the neck joint solid?

[D2o]

Hi jcgss77,

Well ... you may lose a bit of sustain, depending on what type of material is used as a shim in the neck pocket - even if it is wood - if it's not done right.

On the other hand, shims - including non-wood shims - are certainly not the most critical component of how well your guitar plays and sounds, if they are done right.

Cynical1, our resident build guru, generally recommends wood veneer as a best practice if you must place something in the neck pocket as a shim.

That said, I've used wood, plastic, and also construction paper ... I can't say that I have ever noticed any actual difference, so long as it was done properly / tightly.

Bottom line, your idea of using wood of the correct pitch is a good one - I am told hardwood veneer like birch works well.

I hope that helps.

D2o

[chuck]

you would think someone would offer brass shims to adjust neck angle

[sumgai]

Jul 18, 2010 17:23:26 GMT -5 chuck said:

you would think someone would offer brass shims to adjust neck angle

And you'd think incorrectly.

In order to transfer energy (vibrations), any two materials must be similar in several characteristics. Brass to wood is not one of those symbiotic relationships that we'd like to think it is.

First, the brass will simply "dimple" into the wood itself, probably on both sides. Second, even while snuggly dimpled, it will not receive, and pass on unaffected, any vibrations coming from either material - it's simply to stiff.

A lot of brass, such as a brass bridge (or in some cases, the tailpiece) can exhibit some interesting tonal characteristics, when directly excited by string vibrations, but there we have steel or at least nickel doing the job - metal to metal, which I'm sure you'll agree is much different than wood to metal.

As it happens, a mild steel shim might work, as it imitates wood much more closely than brass, vis-a-vis how it vibrates. In point of fact, many so-called "adjustable" necks, like on my Strat, use a steel insert and a steel screw - and they must be transferring energy just fine, because my axe can sustain for just as long as any other bolt-on style rig, with or without any shims.

But if it were up to me, and I wanted the best possible chance of obtaining all the important tonal characteristics, I'd use a thin wood shim, probably of maple.... or whatever the neck is made of. That way there are only two types of wood transferring vibrational energy, and not three (or two types of wood and something else altogether different).

Just something to consider.

Now, as to jc's question. Plastic is not a usual shim material, to say the least - Runewalker's "Tone Plastic^™" notwithstanding. Most often you should find either thick paper (business card stock, or even un-corrugated cardboard, or best of all, a fiber material that is really resilient. IOW, it doesn't crush down, and yet it doesn't dimple the wood. Perfect for the job, but alas, there's usually only one such under the neck, when used at all. Sometimes, as you're now experiencing, that's not enough. I can only say, your best bet now is to use cardboard (really thick paper), and build it up until you get to where everything works the way you want it to.

HTH



sumgai

[D2o]

Just to add to sumgai's last point:

build it up ... do not fold it over - add layers to build it up.

IMPO

[jcgss77]

Ok, I have heard of the construction paper and credit card trick. I am just not too keen on putting plastic in there. I am of the school that plastic + neck joint = bad.

I did try a spare bolt-plate I had laying around since it was a nice thickness and it already had holes in all the right places, but it turns out that a neck pocket needs contact all the way up to the end of body, at least that is what the "clicks" told me when I put pressure on the neck.

The neck is a dark mahogany, so I will be hunting down some mahog. It turns out that Hamer's imports have a kind of dove-tail design, as it is wider at the bottom, under the neck PU. I have to say I was quite impressed, despite the sloppy cheap plastic shim.

Now the next item-the neck is finished with a transparent wine red stain and a hard clearcoat. This finish runs the entire bottom and sides of the neck. Is this coating also robbing the harmony of the neckjoint? I do recall on GN1 it saying that all finish should be removed to let the wood breathe. However, this finish is so thick I am concerned it may loosen up the pocket. Is this worth removing?

[lpf3]

From Fender's page on setting up a Tele- I would think that the same or very similar things apply with any bolt-on neck.......

To properly shim a neck, the neck must be removed from the neck pocket of the body. A shim approximately 1/4" (6.4 mm) wide by 1 3/4" (44.5 mm) long by .010" (0.25 mm) thick will allow you to raise the action approximately 1/32" (0.8 mm).

They don't specify a preferred material, here's the whole page, again, written for a Tele but you can adapt it for any bolt-on IMO.

About your shim, keep in mind that it doesnt take much to change the neck angle quite a bit. I couldn't tell (from the pic that I found of a Slammer), what kind of a wraparound bridge Hamer uses- but from what I've seen most wraparound bridges on flat-tops are inset into the body, or have a neck angle of between 1 & 3 degees, again, it won't take much to achieve that angle.

A wood to wood connection is probably you're best bet for the most efficient transfer of string energy, but the cheap plastic shim can't be any worse than the cheap plastic nut found on most production guitars. If you're talking about removing the finish from your neck joint keep in mind that you're also removing thickness. This is going to change your guitar's setup & playability quite a bit- you're gonna need a thicker shim. In this case wood would be best, but if you glue it I bet that glue is just as much of a tone sink as the lacquer (or poly, whichever).

After all that, I sincerely believe that you would have to have super human hearing to notice the difference that all that work produced.

My favorite shims (so far) are thin strips cut off the end of a business card.

-lpf3

[cynical1]

I was gonna type a long detailed post, but I've been trimming horse hooves in 90+ degree weather...so you're gonna get some pictures...

First off, a neck pocket shim is generally a last resort when the bridge/nut/truss rod do not do the trick. You're going to shim a neck for two reasons...here's a picture:



Here's another picture:




So, the obvious question is, based on your comment "The pitch is off", have you set the intonation on all six strings? And is the intonation off on all six? Where (as in where on the neck) does it begin to go South?

Second question. What happens if you re-assemble the guitar without the plastic shim and reset the bridge and truss rod?

OK, third question. Was the shim at the base of the neck pocket or at the top?

We'll deal with that stuff when you post back.

As was alluded to earlier, I have recommended thin veneer shims stacked to offset the previously mentioned issues. They are quick, simple, cheap, easy to remove and pretty hard to screw up...

What I probably haven't mentioned is that they are generally used to determine the thickness of a permanent shim. In other words, they are used as a setup tool, not a fix...but considering I've seen aluminum foil, pennies, masking tape, neck mounting plates, matchbooks, Q-Tips, credit cards, wire, old strings and old nuts from a dead neck used...the veneer is really a lesser evil.

I would agree with the previous post that the plastic is not your best option. I'd recommend a micro-tilt over the plastic. People love to bash those things, but they are cheap, take 10 minutes to install and make a very good set-up tool to determine your solid neck pocket shim height.


Micro-Tilt

Now, I'm sure you're all asking yourself...when is he going to get to the point...

OK, here's a rough image on how I do neck shims.



Basically, once you know what your height is on your shim you take a piece of maple or alder, cut and shape it to fit in your neck pocket as tightly as you can get it. Next I'll plane it to about 1/32" of the final height and about 1/4" to 3/8" longer then it needs to be.

Then take a piece of scrap board...because you don't want to use you hands for this...and attach it to your shim piece. I use 3M layout spray adhesive. As long as you don't bear down too hard it works fine, and it comes off real easy, too. Double sided tape works, but as the adhesive heats up it tends to get messy.

This is where you want to make sure you measured twice...and bought more shim stock... As you can see from the picture you are going to work this down by hand. Now you see why I mentioned the veneer strips.

As you might guess, there is a learning curve involved. Work slow and keep checking your measurements. When I first started doing these I destroyed 3 out of every 5. Practice makes proficient...now I just shank 1 out of every 3...

Have you owned the guitar since it was new? If not, my guess is that the bridge or neck may have been replaced when it was sold.

Anyway, remember that even if you do get the shim right you will still have to revisit your truss rod adjustment and bridge setup...and possibly the nut.

Well, that's it for me...my hands hurt...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

PS: And don't forget the safety glasses or goggles...

[D2o]

See … when cyn starts explaining shims, it’s way better than when I start illustrating ideas about shims.

Here is what happened last time I tried …

[chuck]

no , i wouldnt think incorrectly ...
"they" make or have made every other possible piece for a guitar out of brass ... be it a good or a bad idea.
why not neck shim plates ?
like every other brass gimmick , i am sure they would sell.
i agree that a neck or body wood shim would be a better choice .
but could brass be worse than all the other crap stuck in there to "fix" an improper neck angle
... pennies , nickles , etc ?
a smooth , flat ( on one side ) brass ( or steel , aluminum , etc ) shim plate couldnt do damage to either the neck or body.
a strip or disc of metal sure could , but not a plate
total contact between the neck and body would be the perfect answer ...not Fenders micro tilt , coins , strips , or anything else that leaves a gap between the neck and body.

it looks like cynical has the shim making method down pat ...
if only the guys at the factories would build their guitars with that much attention to detail , we wouldnt have to fiddle with fixing their poor designs

[jcgss77]

It would be nice if all guitars were made right, but if all of the guitars were made correctly out of the gate, there wouldn't be $40 guitars to be had at pawn shops.

And I wouldn't own 4 guitars either.

I really like the idea of the micro tilt, I will definitely be looking for one on a working man's salary, so until then, I will follow with the veneer idea from C1. Very good idea. To answer your questions:

1. I cannot set the intonation-it is a compensated bridge. Which, BTW, I found to my amusement is an Epiphone, so I would say it is a replacement. I have heard that Hamer uses good hardware (by comparison). The intonation is not as good as it could be, but it is pretty darn close.

2. If I reassemble the guitar w/o the plastic shim, the action is painfully high. The whole point of this thread is that the action, with the shim, is a lot higher at the 22nd fret than at the nut. I want to make the action lower, and also plan to replace the bridge with a TOM style bridge and drill for string-through-body ferrules. These bridges tend to be higher than flat compensated ones.

3. The shim is larger at the base, so the wood one, when this particular project is finished, will be ever so slightly taller at the base than the top of the pocket than it is now. I am feeling a Gibson-type setup, minus the stopbar.

Also, I like all the information you share with us before you make your point. I always feel smarter afterwards, in a non-lectured way. I get that a lot on GN2.

I am looking forward to the next replies.

[newey]

Well, if a bridge change is in the works, you'd want to do that first before you spend time shimming it now, only to have to redo it again once you change the bridge.

[chuck]

have you checked out the Schaller bridge / tailpiece units ?
they offer several adjustable upgrades for the wrap around style.

i have the one with fine tuners on 1 of my guitars , and 1 waiting to go on another.

no drilling , or permanent altering of your guitar needed ... you may have to change the bushings in the body.

[cynical1]

I'm with chuck on this one. After years of screwing around with different bridges I only put Schaller's on my basses and guitars.

I believe this is the one chuck is talking about (color chosen at random. Chrome Gold & Black are available):


Schaller 456 - combination bridge/tailpiece with fine tuners



Here's my favorite, although it isn't a direct replacement for your application:



And newey's right. Hold off on the permanent shim until after you replace the bridge.

BTW, both of the aforementioned bridge\tailpiece parts generally eBay for between $40.00-75.00...patience is a virtue if you want a deal...

HTC1

[chuck]

that is exactly the bridge i was talking about Cynical .
not only are they easy to install , and work like a charm .... they look really cool too ;D

if the 456 is a bit bulky for you , they have other more compact "direct fit" models.

i am with Cynical in the Schaller cheering section ... those clever Germans offer outstanding quality guitar and bass parts.
they get two thumbs up from me

[jcgss77]

I have not seen that bridge before, that is nice. At my first glance, it looked like a Floyd Rose. It also looks like I would have to cut off the little string balls off the end, but I like the fine tuners. That thing is neat. Actually, any extra weight to the body would be good, as the guitar is a tad nose heavy.

I mentioned string through because I want to see for myself if it makes a difference. And I will be replacing the nut as well, I just don't see why plastic is even used, when seen from the tonal side of things.

Price is a factor in my current state. I have a TOM bridge laying around, but need to replace the saddles on it. It seems that saddles are more expensive than buying a used bridge. If anyone knows where I can get a set of 6 for a nice price, I am all ears.

I agree with waiting until I have the bridge, so I can have an accurate height, but I do know that the neck will have to be moved up a bit.

[chuck]

nope , you leave the ball ends on the strings with the Schaller 456.

what kind of price range are you looking at for the saddles , or new TOM ?

[jcgss77]

Upon further thought, if I get just saddles, I then run the risk of them not fitting the screws. I am looking at about $10 for a new bridge, it seems. I have decided on the string-through body mod. My friend has a Dremel, and I am planning to use that to drill the holes, with the aid of the drill press adapter. Which leads to my next questions:

Do the holes need to be a certain distance from the bridge, or is there a certain angle I should stick to?

Are there any things that I need to know which I likely don't, or just some advice?

Thank you all for helping me on these definitely off-topic thread tangents.

[D2o]

..... A lot of brass, such as a brass bridge (or in some cases, the tailpiece) can exhibit some interesting tonal characteristics, when directly excited by string vibrations .....

How about gold!

Introducing 'The GoldCaster',
the world's first and only real gold guitar.
This one of a kind instrument presents fabulous tones and luxury not available from traditional guitars.

Created and built by Jhoseph King

... oh, by the way ... it costs $1,000,000

[chuck]

years ago Ibanez crafted a brass guitar as a spoof of the brass component craze at the time

[D2o]

I can’t seem to find any pictures on the net, but it was an Ibanez Artist that weighed roughly 70lbs.

[jcgss77]

Wow. I bet that Goldcaster is the brightest 'tele around. And brass...I wonder who has that one.

I just temporarily stuffed my Hamer with a bunch of sheets of paper to solidify the neck joint, and man...WHAT A DIFFERENCE! I can't believe the difference it made. The sound somehow is more full sounding, and the biggest improvement is when I use chorus. Man, it really adds a nice layer, almost like a stereo chorus. I can't wait to get my mahogany shim.

[chuck]

there is a photo of the brass Artist in the History of Ibanez book