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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jul 21, 2010 7:45:10 GMT -5
Hi all, Got a question about balance and physics and gravity and all them mindbenders. I have an idea which I'd guess is either spot-on or the exact opposite... or irrelevant and senseless. Please let me know which... My acoustic guitar has the strap button on the shoulder, like in this picture: When I play using a strap, the neck pulls towards the floor and the body slips up annoyingly under my right arm. It's a real drag to play, especially compared to a Strat which I find very comfortable. If I don't touch it, the head will naturally swing down past my waist. So playing it always has the feeling of trying to play it standing without a strap at all... like it always needs to be held in position. So, I'm wondering.... Wouldn't this problem be fixed--potentially--if I moved the strap button to the heel of the neck? That is where it is on other Ibanez acoustics I've seen, but I think they wanted this one to look styled after an electric. My instinct is to put the strap button right in the centre of the little cream-coloured triangle on the back of the heel, where Ibanez usually puts them. Is it safe to assume that it's safe to do that... in terms of the wood strength and neck joint construction and such? Or is there a better idea? I think it makes sense that this should (or at least could) adjust the balance towards what I want. Any input appreciated!
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Post by D2o on Jul 21, 2010 8:34:59 GMT -5
BAY, Yes, moving to the heel of the neck will certainly help. You could also use one of those straps that is tied to the headstock (behind the nut) ... FWIW, I prefer strap buttons. IMPO, I have found the placement you describe to be a little more difficult to get the strap on, but that may be a matter of taste. More importantly, I have found that it does not seem to allow the guitar to be as snug against your body as placing the strap button on the side of the heel (as seen below). The following illustrations describe basically what I’ve done on every acoustic I’ve ever installed a strap button on. Note that opinions of the exact ideal location vary, but not by much. Installing a strap button is very easy to do. Just make sure: 1) that the drill bit you use is not bigger than the shaft of the screw, 2) that you measure the length of the screw that will actually be threading into the wood (i.e. the part extending beyond the actual button and felt disc) and wrap a bit of masking tape around the bit at that depth - so that you don’t drill any deeper than necessary, and 3) make sure you drill in at a bit of an upward angle, so that the strap is least likely to fall off of the button. Cheers, D2o EDIT: The following diagrams are for right handed guitars. Lefties would follow the same procedure on the opposite side of the heel.(this is illustrating where I usually place a strap button)(the angled line in the bottom image is illustrating the upward angle that I was trying to describe)(last, but not least, a pretty good rendition of what I would do, as found on the net)
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jul 21, 2010 17:12:29 GMT -5
You could also use one of those straps that is tied to the headstock (behind the nut) ... FWIW, I prefer strap buttons. I have tried tying it to the headstock but I never like the way it sits. It shifts the guitar too much to the right of the centre of my body, I feel. I like buttons better, too. Thanks for the info and your opinions. I have seen guitars with the button in that spot, too. I guessed that the button or the strap might get in the way of the player's hand... but I guess not, eh? I like how you described it as snug. IMPO, I have found the placement you describe to be a little more difficult to get the strap on, but that may be a matter of taste. Good to know. That's the sort of insight I was after. Personally, I find the Ibanez acoustic output jack/strap buttons like mine really horrible to fit a strap on. There is hardly any length to the shaft of the button. The only straps that fit on it are the cheapest, thinnest ones.
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Post by newey on Jul 21, 2010 19:20:13 GMT -5
If it's noticeable enough to be annoying, it sounds like your guitar is a bit neck-heavy. I'm not sure moving the strap button will help much.
I can't tell from the photo what king of strap it is- if it has the smooth underside, it'll slip on your shoulder as the neck drags it down. I have this problem on my Esquire-ish guitar, which has a very light body and is a little neck-heavy. But a leather strap, with the raw suede to the inside, keeps it on my shoulder. While it's still neck-heavy a bit, I don't have to keep grabbing it to have it stay put.
Or, if that doesn't float your boat, you might add some weight to the heel end. A 1-pound velcro-wrap ankle weight, like the kind joggers use, wrapped and secured around the heel end of the strap, ought to balance things out.
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Post by D2o on Jul 21, 2010 21:33:23 GMT -5
Newey, The strap material (and your description) is a great idea. I use exactly what you describe, for the same reason (good friction). I am not certain moving the strap button will help much, either ... but I've got an inkling it will. It seems to be in a goofy spot right now, in terms of providing leverage to keep things flat. I think it should help somewhere between a little and a lot and, if it doesn't, BAY can employ your clever weight idea. Incidentally, when I first read the weight idea, I thought it was brilliant ... but I am a little perplexed by the placement on the heel end, as he is already headstock heavy. Did you mean the tail block end (the front) or am I missing something? D2o
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Post by newey on Jul 21, 2010 23:09:53 GMT -5
Yes, a bit murky on my end. I meant towards the heel of the guitar, not the neck heel. I envision it, say, 4-6" up the strap from the rear strap button, far enough up to avoid contacting the guitar body (and thereby disrupting the way the strap hangs), but nonetheless as far to the rear of the guitar's balance point as possible. Not saying this would work- but it ought to. Some playing with the amount of weight might be needed; a pound may be overkill, depending. EDIT: And, it further occurred to me, that the weight need not be dead weight, but perhaps could be useful weight, like for example a strap mounted piezo preamp. Of course, it might be tough to adjust the slider controls with it mounted behind you on the strap. Or hang an LPB-1 on there, clean distortion and the guitar in balance, all with one little box! ;D
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Post by 4real on Jul 22, 2010 1:39:52 GMT -5
My first instinct is to weight it rather than drilling holes in a good guitar like that, especially as there is doubt of it working.
Basically it is neck heavy because the acoustic body is so light. Adding weight to the far end will not make the guitar "heavy" and being acoustic you could hide the weight inside.
In fact, as I live near the beach, I'd be tempted for lack of something else, to fill a strong bag with sand and attach it to the lower back bout perhaps with tape or something to test what works. When you have it just about right, get the bag inside and attach it to something like the jack socket some how perhaps and tape it in to keep it in place, the bag will conform to the shape and be soft on the insides.
For a bag, my first instinct would be a plastic bad inside an old sock!
Well, for an immediate, off the top of my head approach anyway.
Moving the button to the heel is unlikely to make things better, possibly worse as the neck button is the fulcrum around which things should perhaps balance, or a little back heavy from there.
So, how ever you 'weight it' I'd be aiming to have it balance from the forward button pretty much.
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Post by D2o on Jul 22, 2010 8:09:00 GMT -5
Good ideas, 4real! Dang! Maybe I was onto something with the variable weight distribution available in “The Beer Carrier”.
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Post by lunaalta on Jul 22, 2010 9:01:33 GMT -5
Hi all, I'm pretty sure that fitting a strap button to the heel of the neck will alter the balance since you will be changing the effective fulcrum point. If the neck weighs more than the body, having the button a short way along the body will certainly add to the problem. moving the button away from the body (to the neck heel, will certainly improve things. Perhaps you could make some tests by taping the strap to this position (perhaps using duct tape)? Just my thoughts on the subject.
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Post by D2o on Jul 22, 2010 9:08:08 GMT -5
+1 - this is exactly what I was alluding to.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 22, 2010 11:56:13 GMT -5
I worry about the sand inside because it might soak up some of the vibrational energy. Probably wouldn't change the electric sound much.
Have you tried adjusting the strap length? I don't have any good scientific reasoning, but it seems like if it was just a little longer or a little shorter, the whole game would change.
You could learn to play something like flamenco or fingerstyle. Rest your RH forearm on the body of the guitar. Once you get it into position, you wouldn't really be pushing with that arm so much as just holding it in place.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Aug 30, 2010 15:30:21 GMT -5
I relocated the strap button as I had initially thought would be best... and it seems pretty good! I like the Breedlove idea, D20, but I thought this would get in the way... especially considering my cut-away compared to the example pic you posted. I do see the problem of the guitar feeling like it's pulling away from your body at this point. It seems the same on my Ibanez jumbo acoustic. It's a little annoying but it doesn't particularly bother me compared to how I suspect having the pin in the Breedlove location would. Now... How do I get rid of this unsightly hole where the strap button used to be? There is a block of wood inside the guitar, so any filler would probably work... but... any ideas so that it looks natural... maybe with the same sheen as the finish around the whole/filler? Thanks -BlackAngusYoung
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Aug 30, 2010 15:45:29 GMT -5
The idea about the suede-backed strap makes sense to me... but I really really hate them. Like, really really. To me, these Planet Waves straps are my favourite. I find that whenever I put on a guitar with a suede-backed strap, by the time it's in the position to play it... I want to throw it on the floor as far away from me as possible. It irks me, grosses me out, makes me feel like I need to take a shower ASAP. It pulls my t-shirt in uncouth manners and reminds me of the horrors of Hell.
...But that's just me.
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 30, 2010 16:16:35 GMT -5
Why not put another strap button back in that hole? This will give you (or others) options, and fill the hole.
Otherwise, I think a plastic plug of color matching the binding would be a heck of a lot easier than trying to match grain and color and everything.
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Post by newey on Aug 30, 2010 22:00:38 GMT -5
This being GuitarNutz2 and all, perhaps a volume pot in there would be appropriate! ;D
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Post by Yew on Aug 31, 2010 10:13:01 GMT -5
Actually, it could be a decent place for a volume pot, as it wouldnt have as much of a tone impact as drilling through the top-beard would... if its not an electro-accoustic you would need to put a transducer in..
I always wondered what a P90 dumped right in the middle of the soundhole would sound like (steel strings ofc)
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 31, 2010 11:08:55 GMT -5
This is a bit off-topic, but...
The bronze wrapped strings that we generally put on acoustic guitars work just fine with magnetic pickups because the core is made of the same steel as the nickel wrapped ones we put on electrics. Note that nickle isn't magnetically active either. The steel core is what gets sensed. The windings simply add mass.
Of course, I use nickle strings on my acoustics. In the past, I have strung an electric or two with bronze strings as well.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Aug 31, 2010 11:33:19 GMT -5
Actually, yeah I think I'll hold off on filling it. I have been trying to think of something creative to do with it, as in adding a knob or something. Just not sure what the knob should be for. The guitar has an enclosed preamp unit like most acoustic/electrics, but I basically look at it as a hollowbody electric. I have electric strings on it and play it through an electric tube amp. So I have wondered if there's anything I could do to it to give it a bit more of a ballsy sound. Maybe this is a good opportunity to add a knob or switch for something cool. I wonder if it would be possible to add something like the Black Ice overdrive circuit they sell at Stewmac (but, then, I'd imagine just using an overdrive pedal is probably better.) While I was doing this, I was thinking it might be fun just to add a dummy knob.... something kinda goofy looking from an old radio or something... or something more like an amp knob than a guitar knob... and then I could pause in the middle of playing and very seriously turn the knob while listening intently... people would think I'm doing some high-tech adjustments they're not musical enough to understand. But the idea of adding a knob with an actual purpose is definitely more better. I always wondered what a P90 dumped right in the middle of the soundhole would sound like (steel strings ofc) That's the kind of idea I've been trying to come up with. I think something like that would work well with this guitar because it's hollow but thin and punchy. It has a definite electric feel. Maybe adding a p-90 across the soundhole would be cool, or even between the hole and the bridge. Here's what the guitar actually looks like. Let me know if you have any creative ideas about it. This is a bit off-topic, but... The bronze wrapped strings that we generally put on acoustic guitars work just fine with magnetic pickups because the core is made of the same steel as the nickel wrapped ones we put on electrics. Oh yeah, they're fine. I just wanted to use the same strings I use on my electric guitars because I use this guitar for playing the same kind of thing, or for practising electric stuff without plugging in but with better tone than an unplugged solidbody. I wanted it to have the same feeling for bending and stuff... but I have acoustic strings on my jumbo, which also has a magnetic pickup.
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 31, 2010 17:28:02 GMT -5
I'm not a big fan of on-board effects, but since you've already got the preamp in there, you could save having to carry a pedal, extra cable, battery/powersupply by putting in something like the BlackIce. JohnH posted a bit about passive diode clippers over here which might be of interest. With the higher output from your preamp, you'd ought to be able to get some pretty good crunch out of something like this, possibly even with regular old silicon diodes.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Aug 31, 2010 18:18:07 GMT -5
Great! Thanks. I didn't realize there were threads about Black Ice already. Actually, maybe I did at one point. But I didn't now, so thanks for the link. Yeah, I don't know about on-board effects either, but then I've never tried any. It just seems like something I wouldn't expect to be too great. But it might be interesting even if it's not really overdrive like a Tube Screamer or something. I'll read those threads and see what kinda vibe I get. I was interested in them already, not originally for this guitar, when I saw them on Stewmac. It might be a cool addition to this guitar. Here in Canada, this model with these specifications is only available in this finish, and there's a black one with piezo pickup. Online, I see the in the States they have all sorts of groovy (and really tacky) colours available. There is also a line of pastel colours with flowery stuff going on marketed for women, because it's body supposedly feels comfortable for a woman. Anybody see Ibanez Talman guitars like that where you live? I wonder if they're really as popular as Ibanez tries to make them sound or if it's just something weird on their website and at trade shows. So... what I'm saying is my girly guitar could maybe use some Black Ice.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Aug 31, 2010 18:52:47 GMT -5
I like the sound of the Les Paul in JohnH's audio clip. Pretty cool, indeed.
I wonder how the effect would be with an acoustic amp... since this guitar kinda goes both ways.
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 31, 2010 19:58:30 GMT -5
Continuing the derailment...
I mentioned it elsewhere, but since you're looking through those old threads looking for impressions re: the Black Ice and its ilk, I think you should keep a couple things in mind.
1) Most of the time when we've talked about these passive diode clippers, we've been looking at them in the context of a completely passive guitar. In order for diodes to give us a "pleasant" sort of distortion, they need a certain voltage to work with. For silicon diodes, it comes out around 1.4V peak-to-peak. This is beyond the reach of all but the hottest of single coils. Even with an HB, it's often only the very loudest parts of the signal - usually the initial pick attack portion - which will get clipped. That's not likely to sound too good. There won't be that nice compression sound through the sustain/decay portion of the note, and will likely just sound like there's something wrong somewhere in the system.
Like I said above (I did, didn't I?) I think your active preamp will give quite a bit more voltage output, at least if you really crank everything. This should make the thing work a lot better in general, so some of the opinions in some of those threads might just not apply in your case.
2) If we put aside all vintage/mojo corksniffing snobbery, the real important part of making an OD/distortion box sound good comes in what you do to the signal before and after the clipping section. I did say this in the other thread. Unfiltered diode clipping creates an awful lot of high-order harmonics which can sound harsh and fizzy and nasty. A guitar amp, with its limited bandwidth (what was that thing about a warm fart?) might reduce or mask this somewhat, and make it acceptable. If you're talking about running this thing into an acoustic amp, though, you might look into some filtering before and/or after the diodes. There's an EQ on the guitar, which would handle the before part, and I think an appropriate cap in parallel with the diodes could help with the after part.
If you look at the schematic for something like a Rat pedal, you'll see this kind of pre/post EQ thing. There's a capacitor from the signal hot to ground just before the opamp. This rolls off the high frequencies before they get amplified going into the diode clipping section. There's also a cap to ground after those diodes, cutting the high frequencies back again. In a FuzzFace type, the circuit has an extremely low input impedance, and acts pretty much the same as turning the guitar's Tone control way down before amplification happens.
Anyway, things to consider. I personally would not go buy the StewMac part, especially if you've got someplace you can get a pot, a couple diodes, and a cap or two without paying shipping.
BTW - since this circuit basically just goes across the jack, after all the other circuitry in the guitar, it would be very easy to try this outside of the guitar to experiment with part values and whatnot before your final install. If you don't like it for this, you can always buy an opamp, a few resistors, a couple jacks, and a box and build yourself a simple little stompbox OD.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Aug 31, 2010 22:02:24 GMT -5
Like I said above (I did, didn't I?) I think your active preamp will give quite a bit more voltage output, at least if you really crank everything. Yes, I believe you did say that... I liked it. I won't order the Black Ice. I think I have all the parts except the diodes. I don't really understand what you mean about connecting it outside the guitar to try first... like, how to do that.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Sept 4, 2010 11:12:40 GMT -5
I relocated the strap button as I had initially thought would be best... and it seems pretty good! .... but not, like, perfect or anything. I was playing this guitar yesterday and still notice a little of what was annoying me, but it is better. Just wanted to say that for the record... it's better and I'm happy I did it, but it's not as big of a change as I hoped. No worry causing the opposite problem, at least.
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