Guitar Amp - Adding a direct line-out?

[redshark92]

I mostly play in my livingroom, and am not part of a full-time band, but do occasionally play in public. I found that the line-out on my Bass amp seems to be more convenient than putting a mic on my amp.

My guitar amp is a Fender Princeton Chorus, which does not have a direct line-out. Is adding one a reasonable project for someone with minimal experience in wiring/electronics (though I have easy access to a licensed electrician for additional help) and if so, are there good resources or guidance for this available anywhere?

[ashcatlt]

Your best bet is to use one of the effects loop outputs. Mono comes before the internal effects. Stereo comes after. Neither will include the filter characteristics of the speaker/cabinet. There's also a headphone output I didn't read the manual (hint) far enough to see if that had a speaker simulation on it.

[redshark92]

Thanks for the tip - I'll see if the effects out are workable - I don't recall offhand if the headphone jack has a speaker simulation, but I'd guess that it does not as I've never had a good sound using this amp with headphones. Aside from that, a major drawback with the headphone jack is that it disables the amp's speakers and ideally I'd like to keep those active so that they'll function as a monitor.

This last is important for me - I have a Digitech RP250, which I use with the amp and with headphones for evening practicing - and I've tried forgoing the amp completely and just running the Digitech directly into the PA. This works OK, the sound that comes through the mains is fine, but I never seem to get a good presence in the monitor so I end up having a hard time hearing myself on stage.

[redshark92]

Effects loop seem like they'd be workable. I can add a speaker simulation with the Digitech if needed. The info in the manual is a bit confusing on one point - if I'm using the stereo effects loop - do I need a special cord to get full use (maybe I'm incorrect, but I was under the impression that a standard guitar cable was mono only).

[newey]

Redshark92:

Looks like no one has welcomed you properly.

Hello and Welcome to Gnutz2!

[sumgai]

rs,

I'll double what newey said: Hi, and to the NutzHouse!

Aug 14, 2010 23:25:43 GMT -5 redshark92 said:

Effects loop seem like they'd be workable. I can add a speaker simulation with the Digitech if needed. The info in the manual is a bit confusing on one point - if I'm using the stereo effects loop - do I need a special cord to get full use (maybe I'm incorrect, but I was under the impression that a standard guitar cable was mono only).

The effects loop is usually the most desirable place to do what you want, as you've noticed. However, standard guitar cords are indeed mono - only two conductors. So what I/we need to know now is, what does the effects loop output jack look like? Is it mono (or two of them for stereo), or is it stereo on a single jack?

If it's the former (two jacks), then likely you've got one labeled as "Mono" with a channel designator. (On my Digitech, it reads 'L/Mono', and the other just reads 'R'.) If it's the latter, then indeed an adapter, or a stereo cable would be needed. Fortunately, this kind of cable is something you can either buy or make yourself, for not much more than it costs for a standard mono cable.

IMHO, stereo is very nice to have for most effects, but not a deal-breaker. IOW, mono usually works OK, unless you're going for a special effect that requires a wide separation of two amp/speaker cabinets. I do this on occasion, but not often. I'd like to think that most other players feel/operate the same way - some's good, but too much can easily go the other way.

But of course, the choice is up to you.

HTH



sumgai

[redshark92]

Thanks for the welcome! I know I poked around on the old version of the site, but I'm not sure if I ever made an account. Still toying with Quieting mod for my Strat...

Aug 15, 2010 14:37:21 GMT -5 sumgai said:

The effects loop is usually the most desirable place to do what you want, as you've noticed. However, standard guitar cords are indeed mono - only two conductors. So what I/we need to know now is, what does the effects loop output jack look like? Is it mono (or two of them for stereo), or is it stereo on a single jack?

The output jack on the Amp? There are two on this amp - a Mono Loop is first, followed by a Stereo loop. The stereo loop is stereo on a single jack.

(More on the Amp: If you're not familiar with the Princeton chorus - it has two speakers and two 25 watt amps. When the built in chorus is Off, the two amps operate simultaneously. When the chorus is On, the two amps operate independently, in stereo, which gives the Chorus a really lush sound.)

The RP multi-pedal matches yours, though I haven't used the stereo on that yet.

What I usually set up is:

Guitar -> Digitech (with some other pedals before and after the Digitech, but I don't think they're relevant to this discussion) -> Amp (Mono effects return). As I understand it, this slaves the Fender to the Digitech and bypasses it's pre-amp and built in effects, using the Fender's power-amp and speakers.

What I've tried a few times, with so-so results, is feeding the Digitech directly into the Mixing board. This gives decent sound out from the mains but makes setting up my stage sound harder.

If it's the latter, then indeed an adapter, or a stereo cable would be needed. Fortunately, this kind of cable is something you can either buy or make yourself, for not much more than it costs for a standard mono cable.

I've done some looking around and have found these cables. Aren't the inputs in mixing boards that I'm likely to be feeding this signal into going to be Mono, most of the time, and in that case, am I going to lose anything by using a Mono cable on both ends?

IMHO, stereo is very nice to have for most effects, but not a deal-breaker. IOW, mono usually works OK, unless you're going for a special effect that requires a wide separation of two amp/speaker cabinets.

Well sure, the built in Chorus uses this to good effect, but I don't use Chorus much anyway and I can live without this benefit in exchange for the resulting advantages.

Thanks!




(EDIT: removed some spurious editing marks)

[sumgai]

sharkey,

Aug 15, 2010 16:33:54 GMT -5 redshark92 said:

Thanks for the welcome! I know I poked around on the old version of the site, but I'm not sure if I ever made an account. Still toying with Quieting mod for my Strat...

Never a bad idea!

Aren't the inputs in mixing boards that I'm likely to be feeding this signal into going to be Mono, most of the time, and in that case, am I going to lose anything by using a Mono cable on both ends?

Yes and no. The so-called "insert" is most often a TRS ¼" jack that is meant to carry either a balanced or an unbalanced signal, but both of them being mono. (The difference is the cable itself. A balanced cable is usually much more noise-resistant, but it's also a bit more expensive - that third conductor and all....)

However, on my Behringer mixers, I have "supplemental" channels that are meant for stereo. They have two jacks, but one of them (the left, again) is also a Mono jack - one hole, and the same signal goes to the left and right outputs. Or two holes and two signals, not mixed together at all - it's all the same to the mixer channel.

What I've tried a few times, with so-so results, is feeding the Digitech directly into the Mixing board. This gives decent sound out from the mains but makes setting up my stage sound harder.

Mixers are, by design, meant for vocals, which EQ out vastly differently from instruments. I used to have a Soundcraft (from England), and one of the channels had a guitar setting, which changed the EQ specs, drastically. Worked well, but I never used it.... didn't need it.

What you want/need to do is insert some sort of simulator in the signal path. Your Digitech has a speaker sim built in, but that's just good for imitating a cabinet. However, you can also simulate an amp fairly well, simply by playing around with the EQ section. My decade-old RP3 can go from a fairly good death-metal Marshall to a very convincing rockabilly Gretch thru a Fender BlackFace Super Reverb. Takes time to get it all down, but once you store the settings......

In fact, your setup (guitar -> Digitech -> mixer... no amp at all) is exactly how I've captured my tracks for my contribution to The Cowabunga Thread. I'll be posting them soon, check them out and see if they "feel right" to you.

There are other simulators out there, of various (tonal) quality and cost. I'd suggest that you try what you have on hand first, before laying out any shekels for experimentation of the Nutz kind!

HTH




sumgai

[Yew]

Usually The DI/Line Out is used for Bass, Maybe a drum mic in front of one of the speakers to give the sound guy some mixing options. However a microphone is usually used for guitar amps, as the speakers colour a lot of your tone. Usually a live setup would have a Dynamic mic on one of the speaker cones. This would be set up roughly in the middle of the cone, the ensure the tone is blanced. However in a recording situation, a dynamic mic and a condenser mic would be used, as the condenser is mch better at capturing the top end, and a Dynamic would catch the crunch very well..

[sumgai]

yew,

What you've said was, and still is, true in the analog world, but in digital..... Recording Engineers of the highest caliber will not let a player get away with "that tone, I gotta have that tone!". To them, it's either the most basic thing possible (strings -> pickup -> recording device), and then they apply their magic.... or else you can find another (and presumably less eccentric) R.E.

Having your tone while playing is acceptable, they simply don't worry about what your amp is doing, it's the direct signal that counts. If you insist on a mic in front of the speaker(s), that's fine, they'll put one there, but in the final mix - try to find that track!

And sometimes, just once in awhile, a recording might end up using bits and pieces of both kinds of tone - D.I. and mic'd speaker(s). I'm sure it happens, but how often? Only Jimmy The Greek would take those kinda odds.

For the most part, I think that unless my name started with Frank and ended with Zappa, I'd be inclined to let the R.E. earn his/her money, and stay out of his/her way. Otherwise, I'd might hear "Hey, if you're so good at this, why don't you sit on this side of the board?!" - and that'd be an invitation to disaster in the making!

HTH




sumgai

[ashcatlt]

From what you've said it looks like you'll be forced to use the Stereo Send. The Mono Send will have the signal coming from the amp’s own preamp section, and since you’re bypassing that by jacking into the Mono Return…

So, as has been mentioned above, the Stereo Send will be a TRS jack with the “left” side on the tip and the “right” side on the ring (both channels share the sleeve for their “ground” connection). If you don’t need stereo output from this, you should be able to get away with a standard TS guitar cable. This will short the “right” side output, but I think it’s safe to assume that Fender has taken steps to avoid this causing permanent damage to the circuit. Don’t hold me responsible if it does, though... To be completely safe, you could use a TRS > dual TS cable which will split it out so the tip of the output goes to one of the mono ends, and the ring goes to the other. This is sometimes called something like a “Stereo-Y cable” or also an “Insert cable”.

There’s two potential problems here, though:

1) You indicate that you’d like to have the speakers remain active for monitor purposes. I’m afraid the Effect Send jack is going to be a switched type, which will break the connection to the power amp. It’s intended to send through some effects and then come back via the Stereo Return jack before going on to be amplified and transduced. In order to use this as desired, you’ll need to either find a way to route the signal back into the amplifier (possibly a passive split on the send, one goes to the mixer and the other to the Return) or get into the amp and defeat the jumper across the switched jack, which should be relatively easy, but would void the warranty.

2) This has to do with the way that some of these amps create the “stereo” chorus effect. Many times this is done by sending the dry, un-effected signal to one speaker, and sending the pitch modulated signal to the other. This wouldn’t be a problem unless you actually intended to use the amp’s chorus, and wanted to take just a mono send to the mixer – especially if you use the mono guitar cable. You might find that you get a vibrato type effect rather than a true chorus. Could be cool, but not likely what you are looking for.

Now, there was some talk about the inputs on the mixer, and the word “insert” came up. Let’s not get confused here. Most mixer channels have a balanced Mic Input on an XLR jack, and a balanced Line Input on a TRS. These are mono inputs. There is often also an Insert point. Like the effects loop on your amp, this breaks the throughput connection somewhere after the preamp (and usually the EQ) but before the routing (effects sends, bus routing, pan, fader, etc.) of the board channel. It’s usually used to add an outboard Compressor or EQ. Some high end boards will have this as two separate, balanced, TRS jacks – a Send and a Return. Far more common, though, is to have a single TRS jack which is used for unbalanced connections to the insert effects. Usually the Tip is the Send, with the Return on the Ring.

[sumgai]

sharkey,

What ash just said is important enough to repeat. A jack labeled "Insert" and located very close to the XLR connector is usually an effects loop that has both send and return on it, just as described above. However, some mixers, like mine, don't use the word "insert", they do label that jack with something like "Bal/Unbal", meaning what I said two messages up.

Which way you'd rather have it is of course up to you, as you select a mixer.


~!~!~!~!~!~

ash,

Aug 16, 2010 17:03:56 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

..... I’m afraid the Effect Send jack is going to be a switched type, which will break the connection to the power amp.

This would be a world-first. According to Hoyle, and also not to be outdone, according to Fender's own schematic (look at the far right side, sections 1B through 1D), the Send jacks are unswitched TRS types, whereas the Return jacks are switched TRS types. This comports with what everyone else is doing, and is highly desirable for just what redshark wants to do here - have his cake and eat it too.

HTH




sumgai

[Yew]

Aug 16, 2010 12:50:19 GMT -5 sumgai said:

yew,

What you've said was, and still is, true in the analog world, but in digital..... Recording Engineers of the highest caliber will not let a player get away with "that tone, I gotta have that tone!". To them, it's either the most basic thing possible (strings -> pickup -> recording device), and then they apply their magic.... or else you can find another (and presumably less eccentric) R.E.

Having your tone while playing is acceptable, they simply don't worry about what your amp is doing, it's the direct signal that counts. If you insist on a mic in front of the speaker(s), that's fine, they'll put one there, but in the final mix - try to find that track!

And sometimes, just once in awhile, a recording might end up using bits and pieces of both kinds of tone - D.I. and mic'd speaker(s). I'm sure it happens, but how often? Only Jimmy The Greek would take those kinda odds.

For the most part, I think that unless my name started with Frank and ended with Zappa, I'd be inclined to let the R.E. earn his/her money, and stay out of his/her way. Otherwise, I'd might hear "Hey, if you're so good at this, why don't you sit on this side of the board?!" - and that'd be an invitation to disaster in the making!

HTH




sumgai

They use that method in all the studios in my area, everyone ive been in, or know people who work in, use mics and cabs (insert yadda about valve power amp distortion and all that here)

[sumgai]

Aug 17, 2010 9:13:35 GMT -5 Yew said:

They use that method in all the studios in my area, everyone ive been in, or know people who work in, use mics and cabs (insert yadda about valve power amp distortion and all that here)

Yes, indeed they do. Because they want your money. If it makes you a less whiney little crybaby to have a mic on the cab, fine, there's plenty more where those came from. But at the expense of repeating myself, just try to find that mic's output in the final mix. Which is why most top-notch R.E.'s don't let the artist have a hand in the actual production mixing process. This is their domain of artistry, and for a the player(s) to barge into it, that would be like the R.E. trying to tell the players how to perform their own material..... which doesn't work either.

Now an old hand at analog, on the other hand, one who has no digital equipment at all, just uses tape..... I'm willing to bet that he (or she) will be more than happy to let you use whatever sound source you wish, the reason for such being obvious. But those people are scare, and getting even more so as time goes by.

Life does move on, and sometimes it takes a step back for every two or three forward. I'll leave it up to you (and the rest of the Nutz) to try and figure out which camp I fall into.




sumgai

[Yew]

Aug 17, 2010 22:04:37 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Life does move on, and sometimes it takes a step back for every two or three forward. I'll leave it up to you (and the rest of the Nutz) to try and figure out which camp I fall into.




sumgai

Gee, I really cant tell.. All i know is the way I've described is the way the studio I use does it, you dont put £250 worth of microphones on several thousand pounds of amplifier (JCM 2000 with 1960a cab) just for show.. well I hope not

also. whilst sorting out my settings, i may have accidentally checked every wire going out of the isolation booth, guitar in, and two microphone outs Sneaky Sneaky

anyway, this is getting sort of off topic, and possibly could end in an argument so lets end it here/soon

[redshark92]

Whew! Thanks for all the info, I’ve been away for a few days and see that the thread has been quite active. I’ll read through in detail when I get a few minutes and will respond with more questions.

I do want to get into one thing, though, in the mean-time:

Aug 16, 2010 21:07:44 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Aug 16, 2010 17:03:56 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

..... I’m afraid the Effect Send jack is going to be a switched type, which will break the connection to the power amp.

This would be a world-first. According to Hoyle, and also not to be outdone, according to Fender's own schematic (look at the far right side, sections 1B through 1D), the Send jacks are unswitched TRS types, whereas the Return jacks are switched TRS types. This comports with what everyone else is doing, and is highly desirable for just what redshark wants to do here - have his cake and eat it too.

First, I’ve done a quick test by setting up my Fender like this with the Stereo out connected to the Effects Return on my Bass Amp and I do get sound through both sets of Speakers. Once I get over to the house of my friend who actually owns a PA I’ll talk this over to him and maybe test it out some more to see if we can get some reasonable sound.

Secondly, I see there’s some talk of recording and what-not, and that’s not really an issue, for me at least. Basically, the PC is fine for small-medium indoor venues and I’ve never had a problem with it in these kinds of spaces. Part of the problem I’m having that led to my questions here is that I’ve played a few times in outdoor venues and given that the sound spreads out more (and that the listening audience is more spread out) means that this amp is a bit under-powered for these situations.

Obviously another solution would be to get an amplifier more suited to these types of situations, and I may go that route as well, though I don’t have the money for that at the moment, which is why I’m (temporarily) looking for other solutions.

As of now, I’m pretty much just a living-room player and I’m just getting into these types of group playing situations more, so all of this information is useful even though a lot of it is over my head at the moment. Getting back to that, does your statement above mean that the signal going to the Fender’s speakers and going out to whatever I hook up to the Stereo send is post-power-amp?

[D2o]

anyway, this is getting sort of off topic, and possibly could end in an argument so lets end it here/soon

Sage advice.

Yew, don’t take sumgai’s comments as personally directed at you, by the way.

I’ve been the creator of posts that others have responded to, and so it feels like the response is directed at “me” … and it sort of is, of course - as I’ve put myself out there … but that doesn’t mean “I” was the “you” in the response.

That applies to you too. You post - seeking a response, of course … but the “you” isn’t always you, yew.

In this case, I believe “you” is the RE's client, who may or may not be whiney.

You, yew, did not seem whiney, and I commend you on offering a respectful post, while defending what you believe to be the case, based on your observations, and for offering such sage advice for a young man – so as to diffuse and avoid any perceived contempt of the forum, so to speak.

However, not to worry! We allow healthy debate here, so long as it is respectful and based on some reasonably credible source – including observations through life experience.

Neither you nor sumgai seem to be in any danger of breaching any such boundaries here.

“Yew” are saying that the mic lines are definitely hooked up, and sumgai is saying that - while that may be the case - try finding that mics output on the final product (multitrack recording can presumably pick and choose what recorded tracks will actually be used).

In other words, yes the mics are real and the mics are recording, but the recorded tracks may never see the light of day.

My only comment on the validity of either statement is that each is plausible ... and I’ve learned from reading both.

Your thoughts and comments are welcome here – and, if you are legitimately sure of something that another member or members may be unaware of, bring it on so we can learn from it.

And vice versa, okay? (after all, sum folks have been around the block a time or two)

Sorry for the long-winded post. Hey, I'm down on words this month and needed to make quota!

Welcome aboard, yew.

D2o

[Yew]

Thanks D2o, I always seem to learn the hard way that your tone of voice doesnt always come across in forum posts or instant messages.. and I like this place so i dont want to cause any hard feelings

Hey maybe we could start a thread about all this studio stuff some time, telling people of our various experiences, different recording methods , comparisons to live sound (lets face it, i bet if you took a recording directly from the PA, it would sound like a preper studio version to 80% of people) It could be useful to a band recording for the first time

[sumgai]

yew,

Aug 18, 2010 12:40:41 GMT -5 Yew said:

Hey maybe we could start a thread about all this studio stuff some time, telling people of our various experiences, different recording methods , comparisons to live sound (lets face it, i bet if you took a recording directly from the PA, it would sound like a preper studio version to 80% of people) It could be useful to a band recording for the first time

Ask, and ye shall receive. All you asked for, and probably more:

Live Sound and Recording, as told by a bunch of Nutz!


And for the record, D2o spoke correctly, and I think you're taking it all in the intended vein. Don't worry, if we didn't value your thoughts here (as in, you the membership, as well as in you the yew), this whole furshlugginer Forum would have collapsed about a month after it was instigatedinstituted by RandomHero, way back when.

HTH


sumgai