Mini Switches and 3 pups ???

[Runewalker]

Not an electronics whiz so this is probably a stupid question. But here goes.

on a three pickup setup, Is there a way with on-off-on mini toggles (one per pup) to throw a given pickup into either:

ON1 - regular signal if no other pickups are turned on into the path, but parallel if at least one other pickup is also on.

Off - pup is out of the signal path and 'off.'

ON2 - regular signal if no other pickups are turned on into the path, but in Series if at least one other pickup is also on.

I have seen the 'Armstrong' mod,

users.adelphia.net/~cygnusx_1/armstrong_jpeg.html

and it sort of does this, but it has 2 minis that switch the given pickup on or off, then the third one - DP3T on/on/on - does I don't know what.

(on the link above, I read somewhere that there is a mistake in it. I could not tell you one way or another)

Bottom line is I am looking for a way with a minimum of minis to get all of the series, parallel single combos in a 3 pup unit, with the possibility of also adding in/out of phase (but I may give that one up, since I did it on a two humbucker guitar and heard little difference)

Can anyone point me to some how tos on this. Also, You guys love the schematics, they are greek to me. I can follow the diagrams like SDuncan has, which I guess are design for Wiring for Dummies types. Ok sign me up.

thanks
Rune

[JohnH]

Runewalker - that circuit looks pretty smart to me, if you want all those combinations. It does all of the main in-phase possibilites with minimum switches. I havnt checked it enough to know if theres a error in it though.

I dont know of a way to do exactly what you ask. It is possible to have a simple on/off switch for each pup (using DPDT's), and an overall series/parallel switch (a 4PDT). Also,If you look through the other posts, and on the original Guitar nuts, youll find several smart 3 SC circuits.

[Runewalker]

Thanks John. Wolf has one that does almost everything, except Neck/Bridge in parallel.

I don't know if the idea I had of an on-off-on per pickup yielding an On1 pup normal or parallel if with others, and Off, and On2 Pup normal or in series if with others is impossible or not.

Thanks for the reply. Still in search of all the tones, minimal miniswitchs, no 5 way.

Rune

[Happyguy]

I have done the armstrong mod and its fine, sounds great (i don't think there any mistakes in the diagram). But there is no phasing options.

Made me happy! ;D

[JohnH]

Happyguy - good to hear that the DA mod works. Its tempting. If i was doing this, I would not be able to resist adding a phase switch to the bridge. Its a DPDT switch, and doesnt affect the rest of the circuit. Youd then get a hum-cancelling out-of-phase combination of neck and bridge (both series and parallel). out of phase bridge and middle (not hum cancelling). and, most mysterious of all, the neck/middle/bridge series/parallel combo would become hum cancelling. This last one would sound similar to a neck SC, but no-hum. I think that would be cool, for anoither $3 mini-toggle. Anyone interested? - if so I 'll do a diagram.

[Happyguy]

Humm sounds interesting, but i don't fully understand what an <out of phase> sound sounds like(woa just said sound 3 times in a row anyway )) And does out of phase automaticaly become hum cancelling? Dosn't a reverse wound middle pickup cancelle hum. How does phasing work would be a better question than all those other ones i guess lol.

[JohnH]

Happyguy - when two coils are said to be 'out-of-phase', it refers to the sound signal. The fundamental notes from each coil, instead of reinforcing each other, more or less cancel out. However higher harmonics, which are already out-of-phase because the coils are in differnt positions on the string, do not cancel out. The result is a brighter or thinner sound. To me, it sounds like, with two widely spaced coils (eg neck and bridge), an emphasis on middle and high harmonics, while for very closely spaced coils (like two coils of one humbucker), only the high harmonics get through. The result is a whole new range of funky strumming type noises, a nice extension to the overall range. I like them alot, but lots of people don't, so its a personal choice.

As to reverse winding, hum cancelling etc, Ive thought long on this subject and written about it on my web site, which is:

au.geocities.com/guitarcircuits

The site is new, so any comments are welcome. (Im a beginner at HTML)

[Happyguy]

Sounds great! Id love to add a couple more sounds ;D
Id be super duper happy if you would take the time to draw a diagram
(Don't feel obliged in any way)

[JohnH]

Easily done - Ive added it to the DA diagram (i hope i dont get into trouble). If you try this, it would be a good idea to wire it up loose first to check if you like it, before drilling a hole for it. Its easily reversed at that stage if you dont want to keep it.

Heres the diag:
people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/armstrongJH.jpg

[Runewalker]

So John and Happy, the addition of the phasing switch adds one more switch to the three mini switch array, and I suppose this could be a push-pull pot.

This seems to get a variety of combos. Wolf's design used 5 switches and was unable to get a Neck Bridge in parallel combo.

Your addition to DAs brings it to 4 switches. I would like to keep the switch array manageable. For switch arrays getting to the extream but every possible combo achieved see:


www.treblebooster.com/brian_may_pickup_mod.htm

But 6 to 7 toggles would begin to feel like flying the shuttle instead of playing guitar. Then again I have seen an extreme design with 9 switches and programable tone parametrics.

The varient that will be inevitable are on-on-on switches (hum coils in series, parallel or split) for humbuckers thrown into the mix: one project will call for the fat strat bridge hummer, another project will use a bridge and neck hummer with a mid single.

In those configs will the three DA + you phasing switch still work?

[Runewalker]

The second config above: HumNeck SingleMid and HumBridge with on-on-on for each hummer and the 4 switch array John describe unfortunately get me back up to 6 switches, ...


...which is what started this thread --- ie., achieving a full range of combo options with minimal switching and avoiding the strat 5-way.

Perhaps full options can not be done with 4 or less switches.

[StratLover]

"Runewalker"--------------Check out this link for 13 different combo's including, in/out/phase---parallel/series---on/off independantly. This sounds like what you are looking for. Give it a LOOK. ;D

[JohnH]

Runewalker - I have a feeling you may be trying for too much from simple toggle switches. The DA circuit (with or without phase switch) struck me as being an extremely efficient use of simple switches. All good sounds and no bad ones. But its too easy to come up with a complicated circuit where the good sounds are hidden in amongst lots of useless ones.

If you are thinking of adding HB's to the design, it adds so many more possibilities that you'll need to be selective. For example, circuits that put series humbuckers in series with more coils are likely to sound wooly due to the high inductance of the coils adding together. Hence the DA circuit might not be the way to go with HB,s, even though it would work.

Why not try wiring some combinations temporarily and listen to them first before deciding on switching? I find the best sounds are from just one or two coils. I also think that more than 3 or 4 coils on a guitar is wasted (ie more than 2HB's, 3SC's or HSS), you tend to lose as many sounds as you gain, unless you have crazy switching.

[Runewalker]

Stratlover:

I have seen that design and I think it only throws combos in and outta phase, not the more musical series / parallel combos. But the GN dude details in schematics and those are too symbolic for my literal mind to follow. So I may be misunderstanding his text and table.

[Runewalker]

John H.

"...Runewalker - I have a feeling you may be trying for too much from simple toggle switches."

You are probably right, too much sixties and seventies "excess is best."

I had a success with converting an EXP body to two well balanced and articulate GFS alnicos and put all the series/parallel/signal switches for the two humbuckers and the palate of sounds was so much more expressive than my veneralbe LesPaul (which I won't touch with these 'experiements'

Benchtesting these various combos is an attractive idea. I wish I could set up some sort of 'log' like Les Paul and keep some strings strung that I could try diff combos uncer.

Are you or anyone aware of quickdisconnect fittings for the 4 wires or 2 wires from pickups to faciliate easy assembly/disassemble. I have seen some blade types, but these are two big to pass through drilled cavity channels (non strat type bods).

[jdtogo]

I did that set up for a friend that John h was talking about at www.people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/armstrongJH.jpg works very nice ....my friend loves it .

[ChrisK]

About two years ago or so I developed a scheme that uses toggle switches to do this. It was implemented in a MIM Nash Power Tele. A pic of the guitar can be seen in my profile on the FDP forum [yetanothermidlifecrisis]. You'll notice that the neck and middle PU are missing, well, IT'S A TEST BED!

It uses three toggles, one per PU, for series, parallel, and series/parallel modes. It uses two additional for phase (you only need to change the phase of N-1 Pu's). It has another for series/parallel drive structure choices (as in [b+m]*n vs b+[m*n]). It also has two for mag/mag+piezo/piezo and mag/piezo phase.

It cannot do [b*n]+m, or [b+n]*m as originally designed, but I was refining it at one point until I lost interest (I lose interest in a lot of things). It does do most every other possible combo of three (or two or one) SC PUs. It allows this particular guitar to reach SG land (nope, not LP), Strat land, Tele land, mini-hum land, surf, jazz, and all the hollow/reedy out-of-phase whiz one can stand. (Hint, series out-of-phase....)

AND, it's intuitive in operation!!!!

Shoot me an email if'n anyone is interested (I'm too % lazy to learn how to post a link, and way, way too lazy to set up a site).

[Happyguy]

I was wondering it dosn't look hard to add that out of phase switch so could it be done with all 3 pickups or is that pointless?

[JohnH]

Theres lees to be gained by adding more. If you think of the basic out of phase combos with 2 pups, one phase switch on the bridge will give you two such combos, B/M and B/N, with B/N being hum cancelling. Add another phase switch to say, the middle, and you add M/N, which is not hum cancelling. You probably dont need 3 phase switches. Changing one of them gives the same result as changing the other 2. Unless that is, you are Brian May (rock legend guitar hero of Queen), who apparently uses phase switches to change the acoustic feedback from amps to strings while playing VERY LOUD. He has phase switches for all 3 pups of his famous 'Red Special'

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

I do like the "Tone Monster" concept. From reading John Atchley's ideas on series/parallel vs. in/out-of phase selection, I think I'd go with the series/parallel choice. I also like the idea of using a push/pull pot as the selector for the lead/rhythm channel concept.

While poking around for more info on Blender Pots, etc., I ran across a page that addresses the problem of the neck/middle position on a standard Strat being "muffled" because of the tone pots being in parallel. (See new thread on "Trainwreck disappearing tone control.") I may work that into the mods project on my Johnson JS-050-� if I decide to keep the dual tone controls.

Individual pickup selection is pretty much a gotta-have for my "Mini-Strat."

--
Doug C.

[Runewalker]

There is another thread in the group sort of on this subject asking about a representative drawing of the "Tone Monster" circuit.

John H. has produced an alternative design having these features, but has anyone run accross a non-schematic rendering of the Tone-Monster circuitry?