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Post by littlebigbangs on Jan 17, 2011 19:07:15 GMT -5
hey, not sure if this is the right spot, but... i cant get rid of string buzz. i just changed strings to "not even slinkys" so i moved from 9's to 12's. adjusted my truss rod, and generally made a bunch of little adjustments. it seems the actions a bit low, but i cant raise it any further. any suggestions? how is the truss rod suppossed to feel? is there supposed to be any curve? how far back should the screws in the vibrato cavity be? i use the vibrato alot. also it should be noted i downtuned standard tuning to "c" . i play surf style music. any pointers would be appriciated.
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Post by newey on Jan 17, 2011 19:34:59 GMT -5
If you tune it back to concert tuning, do you still get the string buzz?
If it's still there in standard tuning, and given that you've switched to 12s, it sounds like a neck backbow issue.
If you plan to play it in a dropped tuning regularly, it may need a trip to the tech shop for a thorough set-up.
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 17, 2011 20:20:58 GMT -5
Without seeing the guitar it's a crapshoot trying to diagnose a string buzz quickly, but there are common contributing factors. As newey pointed out, you could have a backbow. If you adjusted the truss rod and put 12's on it, waited a few days and it still buzzes that must be one Helluva backbow you got there... My first question is where does it buzz? In other words, is there a particular spot that it's more prevalent? Is it just certain strings that buzz? Leave the strings on and drop a metal rule on the neck and see where it rocks or gaps. Like this:  Without beating the obvious, you'll generally see three conditions:  I'd be curious to know exactly what your action is. Accepted standards, though they can vary based on your style and how light or heavy your touch is run along these lines:  String height at 17th fret:  Along with the string height is an incorrect radius set at the bridge. If a couple of strings are set too low they could be your culprits. Is there a twist or warp in the neck? Since we're tossing out possibilities, you may have an issue with the nut. Too little height at the nut can cause a string buzz. What condition are the frets in? One might have popped up on the neck and is buzzing your strings. You may have uneven wear causing the lower frets to wear and the upper frets not to wear. Too little relief can cause the strings to buzz. And that last thing I can think of before I get something to eat is possible there's a shim in the neck pocket. If you bought the guitar used the last owner may have shimmed the neck and if the set-up was off when it was re-adjusted the action may just be too low for the bridge saddles to compensate. And there's always the possibility that I'm off on all these suggestions. A few pictures or measurements can help in a remote diagnosis. Happy Trails Cynial One |
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jan 17, 2011 22:31:21 GMT -5
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Post by 4real on Jan 18, 2011 7:22:00 GMT -5
Hey there...welcome to the surf...but that is a radical set up and change to your poor guitar....
It might be worth investing in a book that delves deep into set up and repairs...something like Dan Erlwine's "Guitar Player Repair Guide" is a classic...just turn a blind eye to all the stew mac promotions...got the set up of some stars guitars in there like JB and SRV and others...
Meanwhile...some pics would help.
You are going to have to do some radical intonation adjustments for your lower tuning and somehow account for the fretting being more inclined to sound off technique wise if playing that low on a standard guitar...
Meanwhile...if you string a guitar with heavy strings...and lower the tuning...the strings are going to require more room to vibrate...check out a bass guitar string to see what I mean...that means you can not achieve low action as you might with super slinky strings. For surf styles and many others you are not likely to want that...I use 10's in standard tuning and a medium action that most these days would see as a bit "high"...it certainly 'slows you down'...
Ok...the bridge is generally adjustable for height...not sure how you are setting the trem or whatever (the trem is kind of vital for most surf stylings and really...it isn't going to like being that low I suspect...and remain stable).
Failing that or if you have the bridge how you like it (mine floats really high much like Beck's...not for everyone)...you might prefer if using a trem to have it tight to the body and work down only...or even fixed.
SHIM THE NECK....quite a small amount of material (sand paper folded is ok, wood, plastic...something that wont easily compress....is all that is required to make a huge difference. This tiny amount is multiplied by the length to the nut...just shim in the neck pocket nearest the neck pickup. This will give you more angle back on the neck and you can adjust your bridge to suit.
As far as truss rods go...be very careful how you go with these things. If you hold the string on the last fret (say 21 or 22) and first fret...the string itself will make a 'straight edge' while still holding tension on it. You do want a little 'relief" or concave bend in it...but that really varies on the feel and everything you are going for...with these strings and tuning...you really are going to need a lot of space for them to move without hitting the frets.
You may also need to work on the nut. If it worked for 9's then you are going to be having trouble with the nut slots which themselves are going to cause buzzing...and there is no going back without a new nut. Like the rest of the guitar...you are likely going to require more height in the nut anyway with these strings and tunings so they clear the lower frets.
Technique wise, you are going to need to play pretty lightly as undue pressure on fat sloppy strings tends to bend the strings as you fret putting most things out. The guitars natural intonation problems are often multiplied also. A longer scale helps...that's why baritone and bass guitars tend to be a bit longer right.
It's do-able of course...your bass player is going to curse you and if sensible going to resist tuning down that low as well. Your amp may not even like such low frequencies in the bass range, avoid turning a speaker inside out with high volume open C strings.
But...the baritone guitar can sound amazing. In surf you tend to want tension on the strings and a lot of players use such gauges in standard tuning and round wound to boot!
I had a guitar tuned down to D but didn't 'work' it and have been considering having a guitar tuned low for this style if I do anything with it...surf has a tendency to use certain keys and open stings and too much can be a bit wary on the audiences ears if everything is in the key of A or E minor...a spare guitar tuned down can make a difference. As a standard instrument though....tuned to C is mighty low and you are seriously lowering the whole range of the guitar. Go to even a higher gauge to compensate and get the tension needed to do all that quadruple picking like dick dale and most necks wont take the strain.
Anyway...hope there is something there that might help...shim the neck, adjust the bridge and look into the nut situation...
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Post by jcgss77 on Jan 19, 2011 17:26:47 GMT -5
Your best bet is to sight down the neck from the body of the guitar. One day I picked up my guitar after not playing it for about a week, and it was buzzing like crazy. I sighted the neck, and it was twisted!!!! I think the cold is what did it. Yours may be twisted or not, but a sight down will answer some questions.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jan 19, 2011 19:54:10 GMT -5
about shimming, I was going to say that a credit card is prolly too thick, but in your wallet, you may have an insurance card or a library card or something plastic and thin. I used an insurance card, or about 1 inch of it, when I had to shim. It just seemed better cuz i knew it wouldnt compress at all.
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Post by rabidgerry on Jan 20, 2011 13:49:02 GMT -5
I too have this problem. Fpr years I have thought it was common to have fret buzz. Is it not? I've never been able to get rid and it just so happens that recently I've lowered my action a little to help with my changing style of playing (I have developed better right hand techinique). I have the buzz mostly on the higher frets. My expert (not) opinion is uneven fret wear. I'm a g-string loving mutha and no pun intended, so I tend to have worn more of the frets under the g-string away (i think) and this means they rattle like hell near the butt end of the neck. How do I get this sorted? What confuses me is the guitar is only 2 year old, I've like 1.2mm high frets on, I've severly softened my touch ove the last year, and only now am I having buzz or rattle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does this mean I will have to pay a stupid amount of cash to a luthier every 2 years cause I really grip the neck? Darn!! In that case guitars are a complete rip off!!! I say that semi jokingly!! Whats more, I have found I love playing with high frets, if I get my local (very hard to find) luthier to sort this buzz out, and he sands down all my frets even and I can't play the guitar then cause the frets are too low, then I have to pay a stupid amount of money to have a refret?  NOT ON!! Anyways had to say all that, cause I've two guitars in need of a re-fret as it is (higher frets you see) and it just sux that this game is so fragile at times!!! |
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Post by rabidgerry on Jan 20, 2011 13:52:12 GMT -5
Oh Oh i think I've my micro tilt adjusted a little to tilt the neck, I wonder will this help?
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 20, 2011 14:45:31 GMT -5
Oh Oh i think I've my micro tilt adjusted a little to tilt the neck, I wonder will this help? The Micro-Tilt is one of the more maligned gizmos out there. I've seen quite a few guitar come in that the owner had tweaked it...not really knowing why or what they were doing... If your neck is straight, or has an acceptable (read as typical) amount of bow, you don't have a warp and you want to lower your action, the micro-tilt can be a very handy little tool. As with any neck adjustment, a setup is probably going to be required...or you need to at least double check your intonation. Uneven fret wear is a big contributor to fret buzz. Not all frets are created equal. If you do have to pop for a fret job go with stainless steel. If you're eating up frets every two years you must have calluses that could sand wood... I've seen fret jobs that actually use a different fret wire/profile as you move down the neck to accommodate playing style. As with any of this stuff, check with a reputable luthier/tech. Many times it's just a leveling and re-crown...unless you're just an animal on the guitar...like this guy... HTC1 |
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Post by 4real on Jan 21, 2011 2:03:30 GMT -5
I really think that it is important to understand the guitar and work out what action and feel and running maintenance is required by the player. There are plenty of competent techs but really, the set up they use may not be what you want or need.
Again a decent book or two is essential if you are even thinking of playing around with truss rods. But more than that, you need to be able to work out exactly what is appropriate for you playing style...not the fashion or whatever, but what works for you and what you want to do.
If you want to do the shredding thing...a super low action, virtually straight neck and very light strings and high frets...plus a very light touch and distortion...is probably the go.
If you play a lot of rhythm, don't bend strings too much and want a very percussive tone or perhaps a big full tone and extra power...you want heavier strings and a higher action.
For instance, I have always used 10-46's on fender and gibson scales and a generally higher action than most would be acceptable...this will of course slow speed down and some techniques may be hard to impossible to execute...but on the other hand, I tend not to use those things too much and would rather have a truer tuning, more range of attack and use more of the percussive angle. I also use a very clean tone that will really expose any fret buzz or deficiencies in a true tone.
Technique plays a huge role and generally people way over estimate what others actually do in terms of "grip". Seriously, all the pressure required is to accurately sound a note or chord...any extra pressure is just wasted, if you are pushing a string on a high fret hard or to the board, you are putting the note or chord out of tune, there is no way around it...or need.
But it takes some practice, slow right down, play practice clean and watch both the left and right hand to ensure that only just enough pressure is used and for all fingers...this means finding the point in which it is a little too little, and just slightly increasing the pressure. A lot of it also comes down to finger independence...you might find in a chord you need a little extra pressure on one finger and apply even more on the others as you increase that one...again, just a little time tightening technique will help a lot and we all have to do it...I've been playing 35 years and still have to watch out for that kind of thing. Also, any undue pressure like this is going to wear you and the guitar down a bit and certainly physically slow you down...I'd rather a bit more string tension and just enough pressure (more than is required for a super light low action guitar) and a lighter touch myself.
But that isn't a value judgment on how anyone might want to set up their guitar or play. There was a time when super low action and super light strings were the vogue...now it seems to be more the other way, heavier strings...but you can't "have it all" everything is a com promise and everything works well for different kinds of approaches to music.
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As far as the maintenance thing goes...if you live in an extreme or highly variable climate...your guitar will require a bit of a touch up fairly frequently...you'd think nothing of servicing a car every six months, why not a little checking of a guitar?
On the other hand, serious work like fretting...well in all these years, I've really not done badly except with really cheap guitars...generally none have need re-fretting but I have a pretty forgiving setup. All require shimming and truss rod adjustment and nut tweaking and intonation and bridge adjustment and I am always seeking some kind of little improvement if there is something to be gained from it.
As for the micro tilt and similar things...there was nothing wrong with it...it's just associated with a poor quality era of guitars at fender.
If there are serious neck problems though...like twisting...you are in serious problems. If you don't have the experience to properly diagnose the problems and the know all to fix them or prepared to do a lot of study and buy the appropriate tools...and make mistakes...a trip to a good guitar tech with a clear idea of what you want to achieve is well worth it...once set to your standards, it should be relatively easy to maintain it to that playing standard for years and years.
I have guitars with all manner of frets also...my main guitar back in the day was a gibson LP custom which had it's 'fret-less wonder' frets removed for big jumbos and I played it as my only guitar for over 20 years in all kinds of contexts and countless hours...it is still as straight and true and the frets perfectly good as it was then even now for all that.
I have worn out frets of course, my acoustic could badly do with a fret job I guess...but generally only on the cheapest guitars and where the frets were already worn...or where the frets were bad to begin with or the neck not really straight and the frets used to compensate for it. But we are talking really cheap guitars here, I play squiers and similar exclusively these days and have not had any problems with the standard frets or necks really once properly set up, maintained and treated with care...and a proper technique.
Still...these things take time...it sounds like you technique is still evolving and in the right direction...I went through a period of scale study that really improved all that technique things and gained me good finger independence and pressure control as well as damping and such. I still remember struggling the first few years of course, but unless you make a little conscious effort to change some of these things...they may well become life long habits or not realize whats happening.
Bear in mind that the string requires a certain "arch" to swing in...if you are really playing hard you are going to require a higher action to be "clean". Similarly, if using light strings or a heavy handed approach you will not get speed and you will play slightly out of tune.
There are 'string buzz' techniques though...certain types of damping or "popping' effects that are advantageous...so you don't what things so high that everything is impossible...an excessively high action too may well mean you have to pull hard to fret the note and bend the string so far to a fret that in plays out of tune.
So, for me....10's are a good medium, a medium high action generally gives me the sound and feel that suits me and what I play. If I were to be wanting to develop a 'shredding' technique i'd definitely be going to 9's a super low action across a pretty straight board, distortion to hide any fret buzz and a super light touch. I've been tempted to set up the old LP for such play...but really...my technique would need adjustment to get that kind of touch especially with jumbo frets to be really in tune and take advantage of it's full potential...plus, I can only 'think' so fast...if one is playing like that...or if I were to....I'd be playing patterns and not really melodies so much...more a gestural thing and impressing guitar players more than audiences I expect.
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Perhaps some more detail of the guitar and what you expect from it is in order...and how amenable you might be to work on the technique side of things and the general maintenance of "the machine"...even an "axe" needs sharpening occasionally...
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Post by rabidgerry on Jan 21, 2011 9:19:14 GMT -5
The Micro-Tilt is one of the more maligned gizmos out there. I've seen quite a few guitar come in that the owner had tweaked it...not really knowing why or what they were doing... If your neck is straight, or has an acceptable (read as typical) amount of bow, you don't have a warp and you want to lower your action, the micro-tilt can be a very handy little tool. As with any neck adjustment, a setup is probably going to be required...or you need to at least double check your intonation. Uneven fret wear is a big contributor to fret buzz. Not all frets are created equal. If you do have to pop for a fret job go with stainless steel. I'm pretty sure this is what the cause, my intonation was set quite recently when I had my FR bridge off to put on a new sustain block. If you're eating up frets every two years you must have calluses that could sand wood... Yes I think I could, for years I've been rigid and gripped hard and played stiff, its only now I'm learning to be more flexible and relax. It takes allot of effort for me though. This is a topic I may bring up in the technique section later, as being tense has probably worked very hard against my playing for a long time. The extreme heavy left hand grip probably is responsible for the fret death!! Right arm injury and a new pick selection (awe - in - one profround) has helped me get more gentle, I still need to concentrate though  I've seen fret jobs that actually use a different fret wire/profile as you move down the neck to accommodate playing style. HTC1 As have I, my first guitar had this randomly, I didn't know what the hell I liked and what my style was going to be like then though!! Now I know!! I couldn't possibly decide if I'd like different profiling or not. Can someone explain the difference?I know on the flattening on my higher frets, mostly on the g string area, tapping is getting harder and more uncomfortable as say it would on fret 18 but using the B or Hi E. So I'm defintately putting my problems down to fret wear. mY Fender seemed to come with like a dome profile but with a small flat section on the crown, not a wide flat section as I have seen on other fret profiles, which just look like they'd be rattle heaven!!! I have also killed my Flying V to the point where I want it refretted completely with higher frets. It has the same deadening at the higher frets, right tapping is impossible on the g string of this guitar. The Micro tilt however may be a quick fix till I get it looked at. I originally adjusted it to even the neck playability, and it worked. It was such a subtle adjustment though, but could be enough to gimme some more clearance. |
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bobbarcus
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by bobbarcus on Feb 25, 2011 0:17:20 GMT -5
Without seeing the guitar it's a crapshoot trying to diagnose a string buzz quickly, but there are common contributing factors. As newey pointed out, you could have a backbow. If you adjusted the truss rod and put 12's on it, waited a few days and it still buzzes that must be one Helluva backbow you got there... My first question is where does it buzz? In other words, is there a particular spot that it's more prevalent? Is it just certain strings that buzz? Leave the strings on and drop a metal rule on the neck and see where it rocks or gaps. Like this: Without beating the obvious, you'll generally see three conditions: I'd be curious to know exactly what your action is. Accepted standards, though they can vary based on your style and how light or heavy your touch is run along these lines: String height at 17th fret: Along with the string height is an incorrect radius set at the bridge. If a couple of strings are set too low they could be your culprits. Is there a twist or warp in the neck? Since we're tossing out possibilities, you may have an issue with the nut. Too little height at the nut can cause a string buzz. What condition are the frets in? One might have popped up on the neck and is buzzing your strings. You may have uneven wear causing the lower frets to wear and the upper frets not to wear. Too little relief can cause the strings to buzz. And that last thing I can think of before I get something to eat is possible there's a shim in the neck pocket. If you bought the guitar used the last owner may have shimmed the neck and if the set-up was off when it was re-adjusted the action may just be too low for the bridge saddles to compensate. And there's always the possibility that I'm off on all these suggestions. A few pictures or measurements can help in a remote diagnosis. Happy Trails Cynial One Do you put a capo on the first fret and hold down at the last to take a .012 feeker guage reading |
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