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Post by diminitive on Apr 15, 2011 9:57:12 GMT -5
If I would use ChrisK's schematic but skip the cap, would the free lug give any extra options?
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Post by JFrankParnell on Apr 15, 2011 10:44:59 GMT -5
couple thoughts...(which doesnt leave me with much ) S1 can be had for around $26 all told, which is not too bad, really. cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200593484931Oh, I just saw the word 'uni' in your post, not from the states? I think someone had said that two push/pulls wont work as an 4pdt. Why not?
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Post by diminitive on Apr 15, 2011 11:10:22 GMT -5
No, I'm from the Netherlands.
Completely other question, I was talking to a friend about this and he asked me if it'd be possible to use 3 push-pull pots on a Strat and use them as on/off switches for the 3 pups.
EDIT: While keeping original Stratocaster configuration when all pots are pushed.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Apr 15, 2011 12:32:55 GMT -5
No, I'm from the Netherlands. Completely other question, I was talking to a friend about this and he asked me if it'd be possible to use 3 push-pull pots on a Strat and use them as on/off switches for the 3 pups. EDIT: While keeping original Stratocaster configuration when all pots are pushed. it seems as though i'd heard about someone doing this, but i still think you'd be better off adding a rotary wired your way
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Post by JFrankParnell on Apr 15, 2011 16:55:54 GMT -5
oh, i stumbled across this:
crank it up and noodle out!
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Post by JohnH on Apr 15, 2011 17:18:21 GMT -5
look, maybe there's another way to wire something like this up. The following would be based on a stripped down version of my 'Dual-sound' scheme. Standard 5 way switch One push pull pot (what value of pot did you get?) With pp knob pushed in, its all standard strat settings. Pull it out, and you could have this: B B BxM BxM BxMxN or if wired in a different order: N N NxM NxM BxMxN Now with either of those, you might want to add something that would allow the missing combos to be had by cutting out part of the BxMxN. Taking the first list above, you could have a fader that, in series mode only, fades down either B, or M, or neither (when set centrally). You'd have to make this yourself, as I did on the Dual sound, using a new 250k linear pot. Thats a small expense however, and the work is not hard to do. It involves opening the pot and scraping off a part of he track. The other two knobs would be master volume and master tone, one of which would have your push/pull pot on it. This would not be an expensive or difficult wire-up, it would give you all four series sounds that you want, with the interesting extra of the ability to blend between some of them. Normal mode would be standard, except with just one tone control. So, if that is of any interest, I'll sketch it up. Working it up may reveal some unforeseen problem, but I think it would work out OK. John
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Post by newey on Apr 15, 2011 17:58:30 GMT -5
Funny, I was thinking along similar lines earlier today, thinking about this thread . . .
It would make little sense to use the P/P pots to turn pickups on and off in parallel, since your 5-way already gives the majority of the parallel combos anyway.
What I was thinking, and where I thought you were going with this idea, would be to have all the std. Strat parallel selections on the 5-way switch, and use the push/pulls to connect the three pickups in series combinations.
The Brian May guitar uses slide switches to do this, but I reckon something similar, minus the phase switches, can be done with P/P pots. What I'm wondering is if your last criterion- that all the P/Ps down gives you the Strat switch settings- can be achieved. My thought was that one position of the 5-way would have to be sacrificed to bypass to the P/P pots.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 15, 2011 18:00:33 GMT -5
Just before I forget it, this is a schematic sketch of what I was thinking about two posts above: John
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Post by diminitive on Apr 16, 2011 5:35:01 GMT -5
Wow, thanks a lot guys. If I understand correctly, John, an extra pot would be needed (ie a total of 4)? Nice backing track btw, if you want I could use it to show off the finished project. On a totally unrelated note, doesn't it bother you guys that when you hear a test of a project and different sounds are shown off, the 'tester' plays something different every time? In any case, when this is done, I'll post a video of the project in action and a video going through the settings, playing the same thing every time.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 16, 2011 6:01:54 GMT -5
Wow, thanks a lot guys. If I understand correctly, John, an extra pot would be needed (ie a total of 4)? What I was thinking of is still just 3 pots, so a Strat still looks like a Strat. Instead of a volume and two tone controls, theres a volume, a master tone and the series blender control. the blender needs to be a linear taper though, so one of the current tone pots is not really suitable for it So what do you think - are you interested in that scheme? If so, we need to know what the value of the pot on your push/pull is (to decide if it becomes the tone or the volume pot). You may need a wiring diagram in addition to that schematic sketch to give a clearer reference for wiring it up. John
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Post by diminitive on Apr 16, 2011 7:58:21 GMT -5
Yeah, of course I'm interested.. First however, I'm going to try and find out what this'll cost me.. I have about €30-50 a month freely spendable so I don't know if I can afford this..
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Post by newey on Apr 16, 2011 8:17:24 GMT -5
As far as cost, it seems like the only new bit you'd need is a linear pot for the blend control. You said you already had the push/pull. A new pot shouldn't be more than a few Euros. Usually, electronics supply houses are a good deal cheaper, and have more selection, than guitar parts sellers. EDIT: RapidOnLine (UK) has a 470K unit (or a 220K) for £0.57, plus tax and shipping. However, these are solid shaft so your Strat knobs won't fit, you'll need a 6mm knurled shaft. I just did a quick google for price, the knurled ones are available as well, probably about the same price.
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Post by diminitive on Apr 16, 2011 14:52:06 GMT -5
Maybe we have one of those.. I'll bother my dad about this tomorrow, I'm already driving him crazy. Thanks guys, you're a big help!
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Post by JohnH on Apr 16, 2011 18:31:05 GMT -5
If it is a matter of getting some help from your dad, I thought it might be good to show him how it will look wired up: This diagram should have one more check before building. A word on how this is intended to work: Its based on the Schematic posted above. In parallel mode, all the pickup hot ends go to the 5 way as usual, and all the cold ends are grounded, as usual. The extra blend pot has all its lugs grounded and so does nothing and its all as normal. Pulling the push/pull knob connects the middle cold to bridge hot and the neck cold to middle hot, with bridge cold staying at ground. So all pickups are now end to end in series. As the 5 way moves through the positions, it moves up this chain, successively connecting to B, then M and B in series then all three. The blender is now in play, with its wiper connected at the B to M junction. At mid position, it is in the dead zone where the track gets removed, and so you get the full BxM or BxMxN. As it turns away from centre, it starts to bypass either B or M, and so you get a transition untill one of these pickups is completely bypassed. One feature of this design is that B on its own appears in both sets of combos. It's really just a consequence of the wiring, but I think it could be quite useful to always be able to move quickly to this. I used the second half of the 5-way to make sure that all the extra coils and the blender are not causing noise and tone loss in this important first position - by cutting these out. Position 2 is also B only, but I doubt this will ever be needed. I noted the tone pot as 500k, which is what I'd suggest, but 250k should be OK. Also, it's drawn assuming a standard Fender style 5-way switch, with 4 lugs each side. Does yours look like that? or is it all lugs in line? If so how many lugs? The design can be amended to suit if needed. So, I think this is not a bad extension to Strat wiring for quite minimal expense. So if it ends up being built, I hope it will turn out to work well. John
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Post by newey on Apr 16, 2011 20:28:54 GMT -5
The "Dual Sound Lite"- I like it! A quick flick of the lever when in series mode, and you've got the Bridge alone for lead work.
+1 for re-envisioning one of your previous classics!
Of course, we can't use the abbreviation "DSL" ;D
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Post by diminitive on Apr 17, 2011 5:39:26 GMT -5
John, if I can convince my dad to mod a pot, this is gonna be the one. Thanks so much.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 17, 2011 7:18:15 GMT -5
You are welcome.
A further word on the blend pot mod:
What you need is a standard full size (ie 24mm diameter) 250k pot, with a linear taper. As newey pointed out, you probably want to use your Strat knobs, in which case you want one with a spline (ie toothed) shaft. These larger ones are more robust than the smaller 16mm types. I've converted quite a few and never lost one yet - in any case they are not expensive.
You use long-nose pliers to prise up the lugs that hold the back of the case on. Then with that off, the track just lifts off. You want to make a dead zone from about 11 oclock to 1 oclock, with a break in the track at both these places, so that when the wiper is set in that range, there is no connections. I do it with a series of gentle scrapes with a screwdriver tip. I use a multimeter to measure the steadily increasing resistance stroke by stroke. Then, when its all done, place the track back into the pot, replace the case and press the lugs back down - easy!
A multimter can test the modified pot, to see that the resistance from centre lug to one end goes from zero, up to just about 100k at 11 oclock/ 1 oclock, then infinite after that. Opposite results with the other outer lug.
cheers John
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Post by JohnH on Apr 19, 2011 17:36:16 GMT -5
I checked the wiring diagram again, and I think it will work as expected. There are a couple of ground wires that I might rationalise for simpler wiring.
Questions still remain about the value of the push/pull pot that you have, and the layout of your 5-way switch (4 lugs each side, 7 in line, 8 in line?)
Meanwhile, just for interest, i had a think about other possibilities with the same basic design.
Option 1 = as drawn base design
As shown, when it goes into series mode, the pp switch makes a series chain in the order Ground-B-M-N, and as the 5 way moves up this chain, you get B, B, BxM, BxM, BxMxN.
Variations
If the series connections are made in a different order, then different blending opportunities and combinations apply. There are a total 6 such variations, in each case, parallel mode is as a stock Strat, and they all give access to the four basic series sounds of BxM, BxN, MxN, BxMxN.
Out of the 6 options, the best other two seem to be:
Option 2
With connections G-B-N-M, the switch selections in series mode are
B B BxMxN BxN BxN
In this case, the blender would transition between B and N (instead of B and M), which will make the blendable position 3 setting very powerful. Also, B with a small amount of N is a nice way to thicken up a Strat bridge pickup without changing its basic character.
Option 3
Connections G-M-B-N
You get, in series mode: BxM M M M BxMxN
The blender controls the B to M mix. This one has the advantage of putting the extra series sounds all at the ends of the 5 way selections, for quicker selection.
I think the base design as drawn is probably the best out of those, or maybe option 2?
Option 4
There’s one more possibility that appeals to me. Wire it up as the base option, but physically swap the positions of the M and N pickups. This keeps the humcancelling in parallel mode positions 2 and 4, and so gives you, in parallel mode,
B B+N (ie its the old M pup, but in the N position) N N+M M
Although the order is not according to Leo, the addition of a humcancelling B+N could be very useful. On my Strat, I like that sound, and I don’t really like B+M which it would replace.
In series mode, you would have: B B BxN BxN BxNxM
Blending is now between B and N, which is the most powerful blending range available
I’d be really tempted to try Option 4. Actually, with a bit of care with the length of the connection wires, one could build Option 1, then move the two pickups without rewiring to get Option 4
cheers
John
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Post by diminitive on Apr 20, 2011 8:41:21 GMT -5
Hey John, Thanks for the info, we're currently trying to build the first schematic you made for me. All pots are 500k, all of those came out of my stock Squier. Since they're all basically voltage dividers, I don't really think the value matters. The switch is exactly as in your diagram, 4v4. When we've got this working I'll try it out for a little bit and maybe try the other options.. I'll post pics tonight or tomorrow of the build.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 20, 2011 15:22:39 GMT -5
All good, it should work out fine.
Its unusual to have 500k pots in a Strat, since they are commonly 250k. But its actually a good thing in this case where we are making series combos, since the higher value pots load the pups less and give better high end
John
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Post by diminitive on Apr 26, 2011 10:16:33 GMT -5
Hey all, Sorry for taking so long.. We spent about a week figuring out what was wrong, as it turned out, the volume pot was faulty. The schematic currently works, and after playing with it for a couple of minutes yesterday, I wanted to ask you a question John. We cut the bottom tone pot at the mid point, but I'm having a bit of trouble locating the exact position quickly. I thought it'd be smart to cut about a third from the center (so 1/3rd BxN, 1/3rd BxNxM and 1/3rd MxN) to make this easier. My dad told me that the cut part would then function as an antenna, picking up all kinds of noise. First question: Is this correct? Second question: How much noise would we be talking about? The concept of full off, mid and full on functionality speaks to me.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 26, 2011 15:30:33 GMT -5
I doubt there is any significant antennae-like noise generated by the short bits of disconnected tracks. In any case, thats all inside the pot casing which is grounded.
One thing: I see you refer to cutting the tone pot. If it is the original tone pot then it is probably log taper. If so it may explain why it may be harder to control, though you should still get the three basic sounds from it. The intention was to use a new linear taper 250k pot
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Post by diminitive on Apr 27, 2011 5:02:00 GMT -5
Ah, alright! I cut the pot from about 10 to 2 (as opposed to 11 to 1 as you first mentioned) and it's a lot easier to find. I'm gonna measure everything one last time, then mount the pickguard, clean my neck and slap on some strings.. Expect pictures and video(s) at the end of this week or the start of the next.
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Post by diminitive on Apr 29, 2011 4:52:53 GMT -5
We mounted the pickguard and it works like a charm.. Only, I found out that at certain settings of the blend pot, there's no sound at all.. My dad told me we could fix that by soldering a small resistor to the blend pot, we'll do this today as I just found out my custom-made maple lacquered neck went crooked (EXTREME buzz at the 4th fret).. I'm gonna take off the strings (so glad I haven't cut them yet) and clean the original Squier rosewood neck while my dad solders the resistor and hopefully we'll be able to make a vid today. Any requests for a specific song/cover or just something I thought/will think of? Again, I thank you on my bare knees, John!
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Post by JohnH on Apr 29, 2011 7:20:48 GMT -5
Im glad its mostly working. But that blender causing no sound is supicious - that should not happen. What settings does that occur?
cheers
John
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Post by diminitive on Apr 30, 2011 4:04:48 GMT -5
It occurs only when the pot is pulled at position 1,2 (B and B+M normally) when the blend pot is at a position from no connection to max, and 3 and 5 on no connection.. It's strange as this shouldn't happen according to the schematic but my dad has played a bit with it and told me it'd be fixed with a resistor..
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Post by diminitive on May 2, 2011 2:27:06 GMT -5
Aaand.. It wasn't.
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Post by JohnH on May 2, 2011 7:17:52 GMT -5
Position 2, in series mode, can be shut off completely with the blender, and its not a position that you need since its the same as 1. Position 1 should be pure bridge only and blender doing nothing. It would be a good idea to go through the series settings (knob out) 1 to 5, and in each one, set the blender at 0, 5 and 10, and tap each of the pickups with a screwdriver tip to note which pups are active in each case
It should be:
1. B, B, B 2. B,B,none 3. B, BM, M 4. B, BM, M 5. BN, BNM, MN
Similary check the parallel setings (knob in)
John
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Post by diminitive on May 2, 2011 14:37:57 GMT -5
We've done that. With the pot pushed in, everything is fine right now. With the pot pulled out, the same errors as described beforehand occur.. My dad blames the pot. What would happen if we'd switch the modded one with a normal one?
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Post by JohnH on May 2, 2011 15:30:12 GMT -5
Please could you post the results of your tests, in the form that I decribed above, tapping each pole to see if it is active or not. I was not clear from the description in your previous post on what was happening.
I do not think that swapping the pot will fix it, there is some other problem. Other than position 2, the pot is not able to cut out all sound.
cheers John
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